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Goaltending discussion thread (edit: Markstrom called up)

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Old
02-08-2013, 06:35 PM
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
Clemmer got us points in 20 of 26 games so we know we can and have won and earned points with him. Do you understand that? Because if you did, you wouldn't make pointless arguments.
Would we have won last night? No.

Did we win in Winnipeg? No.

that's 3 points that would have been wasted if Scott Clemmensen was in goal. in a 48 game schedule, after starting the season 1-5, those are points that cannot be wasted.


you're having an awfully hard time grasping a really simple concept.

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02-08-2013, 06:36 PM
  #127
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Some great points Erick

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So you're saying there's a chance!
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02-08-2013, 06:45 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
LOL what context do you need? Are facts too complicated. These are very straight forwad. He went 14-6-6. That's a very good record. Do I need to break down each and every game, making you only happen when Clemmer earned the victory the way Theo did tonight? The sample size is large enough to reasonably believe Clemmer is a goalie that can earn this team points. And yes, this team is different. The forwards are better, and the D is arguably the same. So what exactly is your point besides some vague notion of "context?"
Jason Garrison had 16 goals last year. Ask Vancouver fans if they think he's going to replicate that.

if the past was a guarantee of the future, the jobs of NHL coaches/GM's would be alot easier than it actually is.

Clemmensen did a fine job last year, and we got into the playoffs because if it. he wouldn't be the first mediocre goalie to have a good record, though. hell, brian elliot had a .940 save % last year - you think he's going to repeat that? how about mike smith and his .930 save %?

i assume, since you're so into stats, you think they're better goalies than Pekka Rinne? Kari Lehtonen? MAF? Luongo? Miller? Lundqivst? do i really need to keep going?

stats with goaltenders are deceiving. there are so many unscientific variables that they cannot be taken for absolute truths. you keep rehashing the same old argument, yet anyone with an ounce of hockey knowledge can see this guy is a mediocre goalie, at best.

markstrom's better than mediocre. thus he improves our team. it's not complicated.

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02-08-2013, 06:47 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by adam graves View Post
Your right.

No one rationally can argue that on any given day Markstrom gives you the better chance to win.

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02-08-2013, 06:53 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by RampageNate View Post
Why not bring up DGM who has been just as good as Markstrom this season?
i've never seen him play. if i thought he was a better goalie than Clemmensen, i'd rather have him up, too. but i've never seen him play at the NHL or AHL level.

Markstrom i have. i know he's better than Clemmensen is, inexperienced or not.

this isn't about Markstrom to me, i have never been one to over-rate our prospects. I gave Gudbranson more flack than anyone here, by far. I still don't like the pick. I've ripped Huberdeau and said he's not NHL ready (hope i'm wrong...he's looking better).

this is about improving the Florida Panthers. that's it.

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02-08-2013, 06:56 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by jakethesnake23 View Post
Because Markstrom is the Golden Boy Nate!!! If he plays, the Panthers will get a shoutout every game!! Didn't you know this??? If Markstrom plays, we can't possibly lose because he is just invincible!!!

Obviously I dont think this is the case. Of course I cant wait to see Jake play and hopefully dominate but many dont understand that the difference between quality of skaters is much larger to the quality of goalies. As good as Jake may be, he isnt the savior of this franchise. A key piece, yes. But the be all and end all, no.

Honestly if Clemm, DGM or Jake were the backup goalie, it wouldnt make much difference to the season.
just curious, but were you a Panthers fan when we tied Montreal for the 8th seed and lost on a tiebreaker? or do you just have a selective memory?

in a 48 game schedule, every single game is even more magnified than it was that year. i don't see how anyone can say it wouldn't make much of a difference to have a better anything after experiencing that, especially a goalie.

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02-08-2013, 06:59 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
Would we have won last night? No.

Did we win in Winnipeg? No.

that's 3 points that would have been wasted if Scott Clemmensen was in goal. in a 48 game schedule, after starting the season 1-5, those are points that cannot be wasted.


you're having an awfully hard time grasping a really simple concept.
I was responding to someone else on a different topic. I thought we agreed to end this?

You can't seem to grasp reality, which is the backup wont be getting many games this season, and Clemmer isn't going anywhere. Sorry.

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02-08-2013, 06:59 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Yeah, Markstrom wouldn't get much playing time right now.

It seems like we haven't played many back to backs even with the 48-game schedule.

Our next B2B is two weeks from now. Another at the beginning of March (2-3). The next one at the beginning of April (6-7). And that's it.

We have 3 B2B's the rest of the year. Clemmer might not even play in 10 games this year. If Theo is consistent as he was last year, there's no real reason that he can't carry most of the workload this year.
Theodore is 36 years old. if you're seriously willing to play a 36 year old goalie 38 out of 48 games in a 3 and a half month span...i don't even know what to say to you. you're just asking for an injury.

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02-08-2013, 07:03 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
By the way, for those complaining about Theodore's play...

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...7218--nhl.html

He leads the league in save % on shots that are within 15 feet with a .921%. The next best is Carey Price at .909.

He's bailed out our defense a lot.
the stats argument again - doesn't prove a whole lot.

theodore was great in his first three games. don't really remember the tampa game well, but he was terrible against winnipeg and not very good against buffalo, either. he was fantastic last night though. hopefully he keeps it up

in no way shape or form am i saying he should be benched, traded, demoted, nothing. he has proven hes a legit starting caliber goalie and i still think he is. markstrom just adds more insurance than Clemmensen does if he continues his erratic play.

the only thing that stat really does to me is just prove this team isn't very good defensively, and it exposes clemmensen ( a bad goalie) more than it does theodore (a good goalie)

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02-08-2013, 07:05 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
I was responding to someone else on a different topic. I thought we agreed to end this?

You can't seem to grasp reality, which is the backup wont be getting many games this season, and Clemmer isn't going anywhere. Sorry.
i didn't agree to anything - and i can grasp reality. i've said more than once i don't think they will call Markstrom up. I'm saying they should.

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02-08-2013, 07:11 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
Jason Garrison had 16 goals last year. Ask Vancouver fans if they think he's going to replicate that.

if the past was a guarantee of the future, the jobs of NHL coaches/GM's would be alot easier than it actually is.

Clemmensen did a fine job last year, and we got into the playoffs because if it. he wouldn't be the first mediocre goalie to have a good record, though. hell, brian elliot had a .940 save % last year - you think he's going to repeat that? how about mike smith and his .930 save %?

i assume, since you're so into stats, you think they're better goalies than Pekka Rinne? Kari Lehtonen? MAF? Luongo? Miller? Lundqivst? do i really need to keep going?

stats with goaltenders are deceiving. there are so many unscientific variables that they cannot be taken for absolute truths. you keep rehashing the same old argument, yet anyone with an ounce of hockey knowledge can see this guy is a mediocre goalie, at best.

markstrom's better than mediocre. thus he improves our team. it's not complicated.
Stats are just one factor, a strong one, to consider when evaluating talent. That year those goalies were statistically better but over large sample sizes it's not close. Mike Smith was really good last year. Elliot too. This is the NHL, there are a lot of good players who when they get into grooves or hit their stride can produce at high levels. Look, I never said stats were the end all be all but it is very clear if you look at Clemmer's record and stats he is a good backup despite your feelings and emotions towards his play. Tallon disagrees with you. Santos disagrees with you. The coaching staff disagrees with you. And a lot of posters disagree with you. You act as if the past/track record has no value. It's bizarre. It means a lot. That's why GUYS LIKE MARKSTROM HAVE HYPE. His numbers in the Elitserien were awesome for a young guy. His play in the WJ too. People bring up stats for young guys and established guys all the time because it's completely relevant and is an important factor when evaluating talent.


Garrison is another one of your apples and oranges comparison. Most didn't think Garrison would match his production because defenses would cover his shot more. That's why his production slowed as the season went on. He's also valuable for his defense and puck moving ability, and offense. That's why he was a highly sought after free agent who signed a big contract. He wasn't signed only because he scored 16 goals.

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02-08-2013, 07:12 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
i didn't agree to anything - and i can grasp reality. i've said more than once i don't think they will call Markstrom up. I'm saying they should.
Okay cool. So you're arguing something that is such a good idea even you know it wont happen?

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02-08-2013, 07:25 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
Stats are just one factor, a strong one, to consider when evaluating talent. That year those goalies were statistically better but over large sample sizes it's not close. Mike Smith was really good last year. Elliot too. This is the NHL, there are a lot of good players who when they get into grooves or hit their stride can produce at high levels. Look, I never said stats were the end all be all but it is very clear if you look at Clemmer's record and stats he is a good backup despite your feelings and emotions towards his play. Tallon disagrees with you. Santos disagrees with you. The coaching staff disagrees with you. And a lot of posters disagree with you. You act as if the past/track record has no value. It's bizarre. It means a lot. That's why GUYS LIKE MARKSTROM HAVE HYPE. His numbers in the Elitserien were awesome for a young guy. His play in the WJ too. People bring up stats for young guys and established guys all the time because it's completely relevant and is an important factor when evaluating talent.
that's a nice attempt to dance around the point i made, but not successful one.

the point was stats do not prove everything in regards to goaltenders. you can keep citing clemmensens record from last year but THAT DOES NOT PROVE HE IS A GOOD GOALTENDER. HE ISN'T

and i think Jacob Markstrom's hype has more to do from, well, you know...scouts ACTUALLY WATCHING HIM PLAY and seeing a 6'6 goaltender who can move like a 5'10 one.

you need to stop, because your arguments are terrible.


Quote:
Garrison is another one of your apples and oranges comparison. Most didn't think Garrison would match his production because defenses would cover his shot more. That's why his production slowed as the season went on. He's also valuable for his defense and puck moving ability, and offense. That's why he was a highly sought after free agent who signed a big contract. He wasn't signed only because he scored 16 goals.
agree that it's an apples to oranges comparison, but the point still remains. prior stats are not guarantees of future production.

you knew garrison's production would not continue. why? because you saw him play and knew he was a one-trick pony.

get it?

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02-08-2013, 07:33 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
that's a nice attempt to dance around the point i made, but not successful one.

the point was stats do not prove everything in regards to goaltenders. you can keep citing clemmensens record from last year but THAT DOES NOT PROVE HE IS A GOOD GOALTENDER. HE ISN'T

and i think Jacob Markstrom's hype has more to do from, well, you know...scouts ACTUALLY WATCHING HIM PLAY and seeing a 6'6 goaltender who can move like a 5'10 one.

you need to stop, because your arguments are terrible.




agree that it's an apples to oranges comparison, but the point still remains. prior stats are not guarantees of future production.

you knew garrison's production would not continue. why? because you saw him play and knew he was a one-trick pony.

get it?

My arguments are so terrible, they're almost as bad as Clemmer! Clemmer is such a bad goalie he only manages to get points in 20/26 games! Imagine if he was a good goalie! His record wouldn't have been 14-6-6, he'd be undefeated! It's amazing what we could do with a bad goalie!Damn Tallon for not being as smart as you and addressing such a blatant problem! I guess Tallon gave an extension to him because he was so bad! And why do Tallon, and Santos, and Dineen have him as the backup still if he's not good enough!? Thanks for shining light on a situation we are all blind to! Perhaps we can send Tallon and Santos a link to this thread. Clemmer has only been playing regularly since 2008 but you're the first to see he isn't a good goaltender. You should be a scout!Which brings me to my next point... I said statistics are a factor. Those who can read, know that means that other things come into consideration like scouting as you pointed out. I'm sure though if Markstrom had an .800 and a 3.99 GAA he wouldn't have the same hype as an 18 year old leading the league in both categories.

Prior stats don't guarantee anything. Nobody is arguing they do. You can infer ability through statistics. That's why they're used as a factor in evaluating talent.

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02-08-2013, 07:47 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
Okay cool. So you're arguing something that is such a good idea even you know it wont happen?
yes. it wont happen because of financial reasons. totally unrelated to the on-ice analysis we're discussing.

nice try.

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02-08-2013, 07:57 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
My arguments are so terrible, they're almost as bad as Clemmer! Clemmer is such a bad goalie he only manages to get points in 20/26 games! Imagine if he was a good goalie! His record wouldn't have been 14-6-6, he'd be undefeated! It's amazing what we could do with a bad goalie!Damn Tallon for not being as smart as you and addressing such a blatant problem! I guess Tallon gave an extension to him because he was so bad! And why do Tallon, and Santos, and Dineen have him as the backup still if he's not good enough!? Thanks for shining light on a situation we are all blind to! Perhaps we can send Tallon and Santos a link to this thread. Clemmer has only been playing regularly since 2008 but you're the first to see he isn't a good goaltender. You should be a scout!Which brings me to my next point...
ahhhh....sarcasm.....the lowest form of wit.

Quote:
I said statistics are a factor. Those who can read, know that means that other things come into consideration like scouting as you pointed out. I'm sure though if Markstrom had an .800 and a 3.99 GAA he wouldn't have the same hype as an 18 year old leading the league in both categories.

yup - but that's not why he's hyped. i'm sure theres several other goalies with impressive statistics in europe.


Quote:
Prior stats don't guarantee anything. Nobody is arguing they do. You can infer ability through statistics. That's why they're used as a factor in evaluating talent.
they're not ever used as a factor in evaluating talent. they're used to evaluate production. big difference.

you should stop, i've never seen anyone be more wrong about....everything.

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02-08-2013, 08:02 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
ahhhh....sarcasm.....the lowest form of wit.




yup - but that's not why he's hyped. i'm sure theres several other goalies with impressive statistics in europe.



they're not ever used as a factor in evaluating talent. they're used to evaluate production. big difference.

you should stop, i've never seen anyone be more wrong about....everything.
Production is directly related to talent. You're being pedantic.

To clarify, a lot of posters agree with me, Tallon agrees with me, Santos agrees with me, and Dineen agrees with me. Tallon disagrees with you, Santos disagrees with you, and Dineen disagrees with you.

But I'm wrong!

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02-08-2013, 08:19 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
Production is directly related to talent. You're being pedantic.



To clarify, a lot of posters agree with me, Tallon agrees with me, Santos agrees with me, and Dineen agrees with me. Tallon disagrees with you, Santos disagrees with you, and Dineen disagrees with you.

But I'm wrong!

not sure if youre actually serious or just playing stupid at this point. i'd like to believe no one could be this dense, but it's tough to tell with you

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02-08-2013, 08:56 PM
  #144
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I don't think any regular poster here believes that if you play clemmer in the next 10 games, and Markstrom in the same 10 games, that clemmer would give up less goals. that's the point of fans who want Markstrom up now. He gives us a better chance to win. And that's what every fan desires.

That's not mutually exclusive from realizing its unlikely markstrom and clemmer switch roles, because of finances. Heck we just shipped Ellerby to save salary. No way this org buries clemmer $.

Eric's point is well taken. There are only 3 b2bs remaining. Barring injury, clemmers action will be limited.

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02-08-2013, 08:58 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
Theodore is 36 years old. if you're seriously willing to play a 36 year old goalie 38 out of 48 games in a 3 and a half month span...i don't even know what to say to you. you're just asking for an injury.
I honestly don't see the big deal. He's getting days off in between all of his starts basically. Again, there are only 3 B2B's left. Maybe 38 is a high # and it ends up being a bit less, but the point is that Theodore is still going to play the majority of the games.

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02-08-2013, 09:02 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
I honestly don't see the big deal. He's getting days off in between all of his starts basically. Again, there are only 3 B2B's left. Maybe 38 is a high # and it ends up being a bit less, but the point is that Theodore is still going to play the majority of the games.
I can absolutely see KD playing theo 35 of the last 38 until we clinch or are eliminated.

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02-08-2013, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
that's a nice attempt to dance around the point i made, but not successful one.

the point was stats do not prove everything in regards to goaltenders. you can keep citing clemmensens record from last year but THAT DOES NOT PROVE HE IS A GOOD GOALTENDER. HE ISN'T

and i think Jacob Markstrom's hype has more to do from, well, you know...scouts ACTUALLY WATCHING HIM PLAY and seeing a 6'6 goaltender who can move like a 5'10 one.

you need to stop, because your arguments are terrible.



Stats certainly prove something in regards to goaltenders. They might be deceiving at times, but the best goaltenders put up the best stats over the course of their careers.

You can say the stats don't prove anything to you in regards to Clemmer, but you saying he isn't good does not prove he isn't good.

The scouts liking Markstrom because they watch him play is true. The stats also tell us he's good though. That's not really an argument against stats.

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02-08-2013, 09:04 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by adam graves View Post
I can absolutely see KD playing theo 35 of the last 38 until we clinch or are eliminated.
Probably not that many, but I don't see why he can't play at least 30 of the remaining 38. I would imagine Clemmer is going to have a decent stretch over the course of the year too because those things happen.

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02-08-2013, 09:10 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
the stats argument again - doesn't prove a whole lot.

theodore was great in his first three games. don't really remember the tampa game well, but he was terrible against winnipeg and not very good against buffalo, either. he was fantastic last night though. hopefully he keeps it up

in no way shape or form am i saying he should be benched, traded, demoted, nothing. he has proven hes a legit starting caliber goalie and i still think he is. markstrom just adds more insurance than Clemmensen does if he continues his erratic play.

the only thing that stat really does to me is just prove this team isn't very good defensively, and it exposes clemmensen ( a bad goalie) more than it does theodore (a good goalie)
That stat certainly does prove something.

Why don't you like that stat? Not only is it a stat, it's a stat with context. Shots from within 15 feet are considered legit scoring chances most of the time. That's usually where most of the goals in the NHL are scored.

I can see you saying that goalie stats are deceiving because they don't tell the whole story, but this stat tells a story. It tells you where some of the shots are coming from.

Also, you obviously didn't read it because the #'s show that we're not absolutely terrible defensively. Theodore has faced over 40 shots from within 15 feet, but certain goalies have already faced over 60.

The only thing the stat proves is that Theodore has been the best in the league at bailing his team out from that area so far this season.

This also shows why goalies like the ones you previously mentioned (Brian Elliot, for example) did so well last year. It shows which systems are exceptional at limiting scoring chances. Halak, for example, who is on the list/on the same team as Elliot has only faced 16 such shots this year.

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02-08-2013, 09:19 PM
  #150
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Probably not that many, but I don't see why he can't play at least 30 of the remaining 38. I would imagine Clemmer is going to have a decent stretch over the course of the year too because those things happen.
Fwiw:

A young Brodeur played 40 gms of 48 and an older beezer played 37/48 in 1994.

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