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Old
02-08-2013, 06:51 PM
  #76
Ollie Weeks
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Willie Mitchell is vital to team congruency in ways Drew Doughty is not.

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02-08-2013, 06:56 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie Weeks View Post
Willie Mitchell is vital to team congruency in ways Drew Doughty is not.
How so?

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02-08-2013, 07:08 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Cassy87 View Post
Oh no, fan's votes!

Doughty was just a better player for the Kings last year, and likely the real MVP of the playoffs. It's not personal. Sorry for the thread derail.
yep fans opinions are so insignificant compared to...... yours?

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02-08-2013, 07:28 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by LA Kings Drummer View Post
yep fans opinions are so insignificant compared to...... yours?
Were those opinions backed up by anything, or was it simply a popularity contest? You tell me.

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02-08-2013, 07:55 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassy87 View Post
Were those opinions backed up by anything, or was it simply a popularity contest? You tell me.
Yes. The Kings record with and without Willie Mitchell over the last few seasons, coach interviews, player interviews, and fans opinions.

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02-08-2013, 08:03 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by LA Kings Drummer View Post
Yes. The Kings record with and without Willie Mitchell over the last few seasons, coach interviews, player interviews, and fans opinions.
OK. So a meaningless stat that's completely team based, and a popularity contest. That's why it's fairly easy to dismiss.

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02-08-2013, 08:14 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Cassy87 View Post
OK. So a meaningless stat that's completely team based, and a popularity contest. That's why it's fairly easy to dismiss.
I'm curious, what are you basing your opinion on? Numbers alone?

And to dismiss the teams record over the last few seasons with WM in and out of the lineup is silly to me. That's a meaningless stat? Some would say that it's the only stat that truly matters.

And it's laughable to me that you suggest WM is winning any "popularity contests" against DD, especially with fans.

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02-08-2013, 08:24 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Kings Drummer View Post
I'm curious, what are you basing your opinion on? Numbers alone?

And to dismiss the teams record over the last few seasons with WM in and out of the lineup is silly to me. That's a meaningless stat? Some would say that it's the only stat that truly matters.

And it's laughable to me that you suggest WM is winning any "popularity contests" against DD, especially with fans.
Basing it on numbers and viewing the games. That's all.

You're talking about team wins and team losses as if they are Mitchell's wins and Mitchell's losses. They're not. That's why it's silly NOT to dismiss it. Obviously the team will improve with Mitchell in the lineup instead of, say, Drewiske. All that means is Mitchell is better than Drewiske. Is this breaking news?

How would it be laughable? Doughty's popularity took a huge hit when he held out, and the popularity went to Mitchell. It's not difficult to see this progression, is it?

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02-08-2013, 08:35 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Cassy87 View Post
Basing it on numbers and viewing the games. That's all.

You're talking about team wins and team losses as if they are Mitchell's wins and Mitchell's losses. They're not. That's why it's silly NOT to dismiss it. Obviously the team will improve with Mitchell in the lineup instead of, say, Drewiske. All that means is Mitchell is better than Drewiske. Is this breaking news?

How would it be laughable? Doughty's popularity took a huge hit when he held out, and the popularity went to Mitchell. It's not difficult to see this progression, is it?
As far as your popularity comment, check out the Doughty to Mitchell jersey ratio at Staples Center (assuming you've visited lately)


Last edited by The Butcher: 02-08-2013 at 08:42 PM.
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02-08-2013, 08:51 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassy87 View Post
Basing it on numbers and viewing the games. That's all.

You're talking about team wins and team losses as if they are Mitchell's wins and Mitchell's losses. They're not. That's why it's silly NOT to dismiss it. Obviously the team will improve with Mitchell in the lineup instead of, say, Drewiske. All that means is Mitchell is better than Drewiske. Is this breaking news?

How would it be laughable? Doughty's popularity took a huge hit when he held out, and the popularity went to Mitchell. It's not difficult to see this progression, is it?
I don't want you to think I'm trying to take anything away from Drew. The kid is one of the most natural hockey players I've ever seen. I agree that he was a key component in last years playoff run. But even with all that talent he's still an early 20's defenceman that occasionally pinches too much and can get caught out of position. He rely's alot on his skating which can get him out of most jams but not always.

Willie Mitchell is steady as she goes, you never have to worry about him doing something stupid. I can count the number of mistakes this guy has made since coming to the Kings on 1 or 2 hands. There is also just an intangible that you cant quite put your finger on with WM. It's almost as if the team often forgets how to play a solid defensive game without him. I'm not the only person to notice it or talk about it.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but to me it's obvious this team has and will continue to struggle without him.

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02-08-2013, 08:55 PM
  #86
Ollie Weeks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassy87 View Post
How so?
I typed out like 3 paragraphs, but I truly don't feel like explaining it. Intangibles.

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02-08-2013, 09:03 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Kings Drummer View Post
As far as your popularity comment, check out the Doughty to Mitchell jersey ratio at Staples Center (assuming you've visited lately)
How many of those were bought before Drew held out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie Weeks View Post
I typed out like 3 paragraphs, but I truly don't feel like explaining it. Intangibles.
Most don't like to explain it, I've found.

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02-08-2013, 10:01 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassy87 View Post
How many of those were bought before Drew held out?



Most don't like to explain it, I've found.
Right.

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02-08-2013, 10:04 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassy87 View Post
How many of those were bought before Drew held out?



Most don't like to explain it, I've found.
I can't think of a single Kings fan that's not a Drew Doughty fan after he hoisted the Stanley Cup at Staples Center.

And we have explained it. You disagree. It happens.

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02-08-2013, 10:38 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassy87 View Post
Well, I guess derailing is OK if moderators are contributing to it.

Mitchell was better than Doughty in which way, precisely?

Doughty faced tougher competition, yet drove the play in a more positive way than Mitchell did. Doughty also started shifts in his own zone more often than Mitchell did. It's close, but Doughty was clearly better last regular season.

In the playoffs, Doughty was easily the best defenseman on the team and in the league.
Advanced stats are great and everything, but they need to be taken with a grain of salt. They provide wonderful depth to hockey analysis, but they also miss nuances that aren't picked up by counting how many shots were attempted, or where someone started a shift and then ended it. Advanced statistics have no way of measuring if a player made the correct read in pinching instead of backing off at the blue line, or if he played the shot instead of the pass on a 2-on-1, or any number of similar types of scenarios. The final result of the play may end up registering in a player's Corsi (or PDO, or whatever advanced stat you want to throw out there), but what the Corsi doesn't tell you is how that result was achieved. That's a huge limiting factor when including those in an analysis, and a reason why it's best to use them in tandem with physical observations.

All that being said, it was very obvious to many Kings fans from watching the games last season that Mitchell was the better defenseman in the regular season. Doughty didn't step his play up until the playoffs (where I thought he was a legitimate Conn Smythe candidate). Mitchell makes correct read after correct read, whereas Doughty is more prone to mistakes. I'm not saying Mitchell doesn't make mistakes because he clearly does. Hockey's a game of making the fewest mistakes possible, but it's a given that they're going to happen. From my point of view (and a number of other Kings fans, clearly), Mitchell was consistently better at limiting mistakes. He's an anchor on the penalty kill. Not that Doughty is poor, but Mitchell is a huge reason why the Kings have had one of the best penalty kills in the league the last couple years. It's a small sample size now, but the team is middle-of-the-pack in terms of penalty kill this season without Mitchell (and Greene, admittedly).

Ironically enough, even after my little speech up there, I'm going to use some traditional numbers to try and illustrate my point. I understand that points and +/- aren't perfect, but they do help give some extra context here. For all the offensive upside Doughty has, he put up 36 points to Mitchell's 24 last year. Looking deeper into their production, Doughty put up 20 even strength points to Mitchell's 12, while receiving 1 minute more ice time at even strength per game. That's not a huge gap when you consider Doughty's offensive capabilities. Where Mitchell really blows Doughty out of the water is +/-; Doughty was a -2 last season while Mitchell was a +20. Like I said, I know +/- isn't perfect, but it is useful when comparing teammates. That is a huge difference.

And just for fun, I'm going to use a couple advanced stats:

Goals for on ice per 60 minutes of even strength play
Mitchell: 2.24
Doughty: 1.96

Goals against on ice per 60 minutes of even strength play
Mitchell: 1.49
Doughty: 1.96

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02-08-2013, 10:46 PM
  #91
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The Kings record without Mitchell is abysmal.

That is all anyone needs to know.

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02-09-2013, 12:37 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
The Kings record without Mitchell is abysmal.

That is all anyone needs to know.
There were stretches when Gretzky was out of the lineup due to injury and the Kings record actually improved.

Wins and losses are a team stat.

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02-25-2013, 08:37 PM
  #93
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I play adult rec league hockey in Willis hometown here on Vancouver island, and just talkin to close people that know him in the dressing room it sounds like willi isn't feeling well , what I am told. Sounds like it could be his concussion again. Not much optimism coming from those that know him well, and I really doubt he plays again this season, and who knows beyond.

This is a real small town of 2000 people or so, and he is very in touch with alot of them still. So take this for what it's worth


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02-25-2013, 08:44 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by robitaillefan View Post
I play adult rec league hockey in Willis hometown here on Vancouver island, and just talkin to close people that know him in the dressing room it sounds like willi isn't feeling well , what I am told. Sounds like it could be his concussion again. Not much optimism coming from those that know him well, and I really doubt he plays again.

This is a real small town of 2000 people or so, and he is very in touch with alot of them still. So take this for what it's worth
Ugh, that's the worst kind of news.

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02-25-2013, 08:50 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by robitaillefan View Post
I play adult rec league hockey in Willis hometown here on Vancouver island, and just talkin to close people that know him in the dressing room it sounds like willi isn't feeling well , what I am told. Sounds like it could be his concussion again. Not much optimism coming from those that know him well, and I really doubt he plays again this season, and who knows beyond.

This is a real small town of 2000 people or so, and he is very in touch with alot of them still. So take this for what it's worth
I don't believe you. Why?

1. Not a legit source
2. I don't WANT to. ****. I love Willie. Can we retire 33 after he retires?

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02-25-2013, 08:51 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robitaillefan View Post
I play adult rec league hockey in Willis hometown here on Vancouver island, and just talkin to close people that know him in the dressing room it sounds like willi isn't feeling well , what I am told. Sounds like it could be his concussion again. Not much optimism coming from those that know him well, and I really doubt he plays again this season, and who knows beyond.

This is a real small town of 2000 people or so, and he is very in touch with alot of them still. So take this for what it's worth
When and how the hell would he have gotten a concussion?

EDIT: Not questioning the source.

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02-25-2013, 08:52 PM
  #97
Ollie Weeks
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Can over 35's be subject to amnesty buyouts? I've always wondered but never noticed an answer in the threads.

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02-25-2013, 08:58 PM
  #98
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My sources are people who grew up with him, and still see him. What more do u want ? I play against his dads team should I grill him to? I'm sure her gets it enough. I leave him alone.

I was just told he's was not feeling good. Could be his head again.

Don't shoot the messenger. I want him back to

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02-25-2013, 09:01 PM
  #99
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Can over 35's be subject to amnesty buyouts? I've always wondered but never noticed an answer in the threads.
I know injured players can't be amnestied, if that's a word. Is he on a 2 year contract including this year?

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02-25-2013, 09:05 PM
  #100
Ollie Weeks
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I know injured players can't be amnestied, if that's a word. Is he on a 2 year contract including this year?
Yeah, he's on the books next year. I forgot about the buyouts and injuries, but I guess if he goes LTIR it doesn't really matter in terms of cap hit anyway.

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