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Old
02-08-2013, 08:21 PM
  #151
adam graves
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Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
yes. it wont happen because of financial reasons. totally unrelated to the on-ice analysis we're discussing.

nice try.
That is the only reason it's not going to happen.

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02-08-2013, 08:31 PM
  #152
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That is the only reason it's not going to happen.
Not true. You don't want Markstrom riding the bench in a backup role. You want him playing as much as possible. He's not going to take over the starting role so he'd play a handful of games.

And, we'd have to put Clemmer on waivers to send him down and there's a good chance he'd get picked up. That would really hurt our goalie depth which is a strength right now.

So three big reasons. Money, need him to play, and depth.

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02-08-2013, 08:53 PM
  #153
adam graves
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Not true. You don't want Markstrom riding the bench in a backup role. You want him playing as much as possible. He's not going to take over the starting role so he'd play a handful of games.

And, we'd have to put Clemmer on waivers to send him down and there's a good chance he'd get picked up. That would really hurt our goalie depth which is a strength right now.

So three big reasons. Money, need him to play, and depth.
I think RR he'd play 15 of the remaining 38, as i believe it would be a 1a and 1b...

The goalie depth issue point is well taken. To my point that although this would be the best move for wins v losses it may not be realistic.


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02-09-2013, 09:36 PM
  #154
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BUMP!

another game we lost mostly because of goaltending. not just our own, but Holtby was magnificent for Washington.

we dominated the first period and came out of it down 1-0. that seemed to give washington energy and take the wind out of our sails. it was all downhill after that.

while im not putting the blame solely on theodore, - our guys need to show a little (alot) more fight/resiliency than that - he wasn't good either. he's been very erratic this year, to say the least. on the other end, holtby played incredibly well, any chance we had to recapture momentum he shut the door. and we had plenty in the first half of that game. so don't tell me that we just didn't show up to play.

and yes i realize holtby has been abysmal so far this season. that just further proves my point. the caps have been getting terrible goaltending this season and you see where that has put them in the standings. today, they got good goaltending in the first and it completely changed their game. they looked great in the second and third, full of energy and tenacity and...confidence!

goaltending is the most important position in all of sports. anyone that has ever played the game knows that one bad goal can completely change the momentum of a game, and consistently bad goaltending can change the confidence of a team. once you stop trusting your goalie, everything falls apart.

meanwhile: in san antonio (posted an hour ago)

Quote:
Dan Weiss ‏@SARampage_Voice

Rampage and Checkers tied at 1-1 after 40 minutes. Markstrom and the Rampage PK the difference in the game...what else is new!

Quote:
Dan Weiss ‏@SARampage_Voice

Another big night for Jacob Markstrom in his 100th career start as he allows 2 goals or less for the 11th time in his last 14 starts.


give the kid his chance. anyone who thinks a bump in our goaltending wouldn't make a huge difference is insane.

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02-09-2013, 09:49 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
BUMP!

another game we lost mostly because of goaltending. not just our own, but Holtby was magnificent for Washington.

we dominated the first period and came out of it down 1-0. that seemed to give washington energy and take the wind out of our sails. it was all downhill after that.

while im not putting the blame solely on theodore, - our guys need to show a little (alot) more fight/resiliency than that - he wasn't good either. he's been very erratic this year, to say the least. on the other end, holtby played incredibly well, any chance we had to recapture momentum he shut the door. and we had plenty in the first half of that game. so don't tell me that we just didn't show up to play.

and yes i realize holtby has been abysmal so far this season. that just further proves my point. the caps have been getting terrible goaltending this season and you see where that has put them in the standings. today, they got good goaltending in the first and it completely changed their game. they looked great in the second and third, full of energy and tenacity and...confidence!

goaltending is the most important position in all of sports. anyone that has ever played the game knows that one bad goal can completely change the momentum of a game, and consistently bad goaltending can change the confidence of a team. once you stop trusting your goalie, everything falls apart.

meanwhile: in san antonio (posted an hour ago)








give the kid his chance. anyone who thinks a bump in our goaltending wouldn't make a huge difference is insane.
Of course better goaltending would help, I will not argue that point. But goaltending is not the biggest problem with this team. Bringing up Marky would be like taking a Tylenol for a broken leg. Probably woulndnt hurt, may even help, but really not gonna change a whole lot.

Panthers are being outscored 2 to 1 at even strength, good for last in the league. That is a damning statistic. No amount of goaltending will compensate for the 18 (18!!!!!) other players that are sucking up the joint.

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02-09-2013, 09:57 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by jakethesnake23 View Post
Of course better goaltending would help, I will not argue that point. But goaltending is not the biggest problem with this team. Bringing up Marky would be like taking a Tylenol for a broken leg. Probably woulndnt hurt, may even help, but really not gonna change a whole lot.

Panthers are being outscored 2 to 1 at even strength, good for last in the league. That is a damning statistic. No amount of goaltending will compensate for the 18 (18!!!!!) other players that are sucking up the joint.
you're completely wrong.

what are the statistics after the 1-5 stretch? you might as well throw everything out during that stretch because this is a different team.

the team during the 1-5 start was a disorganized group of individuals not playing or executing a system.

the team since then has played good hockey, going 3-1-1 since then.

but the goaltending issue is apparent despite the winning record. aside from Theo in Philly, our goalies have stunk up the joint in every single game.

yes you are right that we have problems, every team does. goaltending has been the biggest one lately, though.

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02-09-2013, 10:36 PM
  #157
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1. I think the major question should be: "is Markstrom better than Theodore?," not "is Markstrom better than Clemmer?" If Markstrom is going to play, I want him playing the majority of the games, not even splitting time. Is he that much better than Theodore right now?

2. We've already established the backup isn't going to play much.

3. Theodore is a free agent at the end of the year. He's an asset. If the team is bad at the trade deadline, Theo could be traded for a pick. I think we can all agree that this team isn't elite. If the team is mediocre/average, I'd rather have Theodore getting the majority of the starts. Get something for him at the deadline and then the Markstrom era would begin after that, anyway.

Are we really expecting a rookie goaltender to be the difference in a season?

I'm not denying that he's better than Clemmensen or even better than Theodore, really. He probably is. But, how much better? Right now, we have the worst goal differential in hockey. A rookie goaltender is not going to solve all (or most) of our problems.

The same two goaltenders we have now were the main reason we made the playoffs last year. Wouldn't you agree that they're better than their current #'s indicate? Wouldn't you agree that you're probably just overreacting to a small sample?

Goaltending isn't even our biggest problem, sorry.

What about Versteeg? Weiss? The golden boy afraid to shoot the puck, Kulikov? Our biggest free agent signing, Filip Kuba? These guys have been underwhelming to downright terrible and they're supposed to be our best players.

It's not a good thing that our most noticeable player on most nights is 21-year-old rookie, Drew Shore.

Goaltender is not the most important position in sports. If the team in front of the goaltender is not good enough, the goaltender can only carry a team so far. Carey Price, Ryan Miller, Kari Lehtonen, Cam Ward, etc. are all pretty good goaltenders, but they still need a team in front of them to succeed, and they really don't have it.

Saying goaltending is our biggest problem is an oversimplification of things.

You're basically using a 5-game sample size to prove your point. Of the 5 games, you admit Theodore played very well in one. The win in Buffalo we'll disagree on because I thought he played well. Either way, you're basically saying it's the biggest problem because of a bad 3-4 game sample size?

What happens when Markstrom has a couple of poor games in front of this inconsistent team? Will DGM be the new savior?

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02-09-2013, 10:57 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
BUMP!


meanwhile: in san antonio (posted an hour ago)








give the kid his chance. anyone who thinks a bump in our goaltending wouldn't make a huge difference is insane.
Sorry, posting stats trying to justify your opinion about Markstrom would be hypocritical since you have mentioned repeatedly in this thread that stats for goalies are deceptive. So i'm sorry but these mean nothing.

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02-09-2013, 11:03 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by jakethesnake23 View Post
Sorry, posting stats trying to justify your opinion about Markstrom would be hypocritical since you have mentioned repeatedly in this thread that stats for goalies are deceptive. So i'm sorry but these mean nothing.
Good point. Why do those AHL stats matter? After all, stats "don't prove a whole lot." If citing Theodore and Clemmensen's stats in the NHL "don't prove a whole lot," citing Markstrom's stats in the AHL only prove a whole lot less.

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02-10-2013, 12:14 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Good point. Why do those AHL stats matter? After all, stats "don't prove a whole lot." If citing Theodore and Clemmensen's stats in the NHL "don't prove a whole lot," citing Markstrom's stats in the AHL only prove a whole lot less.
dan weiss claiming and insinuating that jacob markstrom is stealing games and being the difference maker is not a stat - so it's actually a terrible point.

and that is mostly why i cited it. the other stat is just adding to the fact that he's been consistently dominant for a while now. no better time than now to give him a chance.


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02-10-2013, 12:20 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
you're completely wrong.

what are the statistics after the 1-5 stretch? you might as well throw everything out during that stretch because this is a different team.

the team during the 1-5 start was a disorganized group of individuals not playing or executing a system.

the team since then has played good hockey, going 3-1-1 since then.

but the goaltending issue is apparent despite the winning record. aside from Theo in Philly, our goalies have stunk up the joint in every single game.

yes you are right that we have problems, every team does. goaltending has been the biggest one lately, though.
Scoring goals has been our issue since the beginning of last season. I don't see how it's "completely wrong" to say that scoring goals is our biggest problem.

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02-10-2013, 12:49 AM
  #162
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1. I think the major question should be: "is Markstrom better than Theodore?," not "is Markstrom better than Clemmer?" If Markstrom is going to play, I want him playing the majority of the games, not even splitting time. Is he that much better than Theodore right now?
right now? yeah he probably is, because theodore's been pretty terrible 4 out of the last 5 games he's played in.



Quote:
2. We've already established the backup isn't going to play much.

we haven't established anything, that's just you assuming that we have to go with a traditional starter-backup tandem - we don't. call up markstrom and play the hot hand, labels are overrated and unnecessary.


Quote:
3. Theodore is a free agent at the end of the year. He's an asset. If the team is bad at the trade deadline, Theo could be traded for a pick. I think we can all agree that this team isn't elite. If the team is mediocre/average, I'd rather have Theodore getting the majority of the starts. Get something for him at the deadline and then the Markstrom era would begin after that, anyway.
so you'd rather start a guy because you'd rather protect his trade value than trying to make an honest attempt at making the playoffs?

i hope our front office doesn't have those same intentions, because they're awful and flat out stupid. you run a team to win games, not to protect players value.


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Are we really expecting a rookie goaltender to be the difference in a season?
the difference? no. a difference? yes. he improves the team. that's all that matters.


Quote:
I'm not denying that he's better than Clemmensen or even better than Theodore, really. He probably is. But, how much better? Right now, we have the worst goal differential in hockey. A rookie goaltender is not going to solve all (or most) of our problems.
you and other posters keep re-hashing that stat as if it means something. it doesn't.

the team that has played the last 5 games is not comparable to the team that played the first 6. the system issues they were having are solved.

Quote:
The same two goaltenders we have now were the main reason we made the playoffs last year. Wouldn't you agree that they're better than their current #'s indicate? Wouldn't you agree that you're probably just overreacting to a small sample?
i love theodore. he may be my favorite goalie in our history for getting us into the playoffs after 11 straight years of not making it.

i'm not overreacting.it's a 48 game season and we can't continue to throw away points. our goaltending has been bad for the last 6 games. 6 games is nearly 15% of a 48 game schedule.

we're fortunate enough to have gone 3-1-1 in our last 5 despite the goaltending. but that's not going to continue and tonight was a glimpse as to why it won't continue.

we have two options: stick with the status quo and pray theodore finds his game, or call up markstrom and you have two goalies who have the potential to carry the load.

what in the **** is the downside?

clemmensen is the odd man out and it's not a big loss because he's not very good.


Quote:
Goaltending isn't even our biggest problem, sorry.
the last 6 games it has been, and if you disagree you're not watching the same team.

Quote:
What about Versteeg? Weiss? The golden boy afraid to shoot the puck, Kulikov? Our biggest free agent signing, Filip Kuba? These guys have been underwhelming to downright terrible and they're supposed to be our best players.
singling out individual players on a score-by-committee team is pointless.

there are three basic facets to a team: offense, defense, goaltending. until tonight...the offense was fine. defense was good aside from that OT in philly. goaltending has been poor. it's that simple.

the players in front of the goaltenders, as a whole, have outplayed their opponents for the majority of every game (until tonight) for the last 5 games.. save for the overtime period against philly, i can't really single out a bad stretch since the philly game at home.

and even tonight i felt we were dominating the first and just quit playing. that's a character issue, though, and not a talent issue. they have to be more resilient than they showed today

if you think anything other than goaltending is the biggest problem as of late, i don't know what to tell you.



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It's not a good thing that our most noticeable player on most nights is 21-year-old rookie, Drew Shore.
it's a very good thing, it means we just added another damn good player to a group that needed it.

did we really have noticeable players last year? we made the playoffs then. this isn't a team with noticeable players. that doesn't mean it's not a good team (or can be a good team)

Quote:
Goaltender is not the most important position in sports. If the team in front of the goaltender is not good enough, the goaltender can only carry a team so far. Carey Price, Ryan Miller, Kari Lehtonen, Cam Ward, etc. are all pretty good goaltenders, but they still need a team in front of them to succeed, and they really don't have it.


so you're basically trying to say goaltending isn't the most position in sports because good goalies in the nhl that have bad teams can't win.

okay....

who won the cup last year? why'd they win? why are they struggling now? answer: jonathan quick carried them; jonathan quick is struggling.

how about the year before? why'd they win? tim thomas.

even the hawks rode a ridiculously hot antti niemi (who i agree, is a marginal goalie, but played incredible during that run)

obviously a goalie needs a good team in front of them to win, i mean, it's a team sport. but a good team cannot win if they have poor goaltending.

tampa bay last year, similar team to the year before, what happened? whats happening now?

goaltending is the most important position in sports; you're out to lunch if you disagree.

this team is more talented in front of the goaltenders than last years team, but they are not getting the same caliber of play from them.

if theodore and clemmensen played the way they've played the last 5 games last year, there's no ****ing way this team would be 3-1-1 in our last 5 games. NO CHANCE.

theo was consistently great all year, though, so this was never and issue.

Quote:
Saying goaltending is our biggest problem is an oversimplification of things.
no it's not, and you haven't made one argument that's even close to disproving it.

Quote:
You're basically using a 5-game sample size to prove your point. Of the 5 games, you admit Theodore played very well in one. The win in Buffalo we'll disagree on because I thought he played well. Either way, you're basically saying it's the biggest problem because of a bad 3-4 game sample size?
yes.

i'm ignoring the first 6 games of the season. those games were not played by a team. they had no system in place and were basically just a bunch of guys skating around.

something clicked vs winnipeg at home, and since then they have played good hockey.

regardless, my original point was to call up markstrom to split time with theodore. not to replace theodore. i'm not giving up on theodore. but i don't think we can afford to wait around until he finds his game, especially not after starting off 1-5.

i don't doubt theodore can rebound. i've seen him play and he's proven to be a legit starting goalie in this league. but he's been terrible lately and it just fuels the fire to call up markstrom because we don't have anyone else we can go to at the moment while theodore finds his game.

theo hasn't been the most consistent goalie throughout his career though. he's had some great seasons and them some abysmal ones.

and this season is too short to keep throwing away points while we hope he turns it around and prove it's not an abysmal one.

Quote:
What happens when Markstrom has a couple of poor games in front of this inconsistent team? Will DGM be the new savior?
no, if markstrom fails, and theodore fails, we'll be dead and buried in the eastern conference anyway.

that being said: markstrom won't fail. he's good.

like i said before, i'm not one of these posters who just automatically fall in love with our prospects because they think they're the second coming of jesus christ and are the savior for our franchise. if anything, i've been the exact opposite. i've bashed gudbranson, i said huberdeau's not ready for the nhl.

i'm not asking for markstrom to be called up because i've fallen in love with him as a prospect and think he's the golden boy savior that miraculously turn around our franchise.

i'm asking for markstrom to be called up because he is a better goalie than either of our goaltenders, especially at the moment.

if theodore rebounds, awesome! we'll have two very good goalies instead of one and a servicable backup. if not, we'll pass the torch over to markstrom and move on.

either way, our team will improve and that's the bottom line.


Last edited by flapanthersfan: 02-10-2013 at 01:20 AM.
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02-10-2013, 12:53 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
1. I think the major question should be: "is Markstrom better than Theodore?," not "is Markstrom better than Clemmer?" If Markstrom is going to play, I want him playing the majority of the games, not even splitting time. Is he that much better than Theodore right now?

2. We've already established the backup isn't going to play much.

3. Theodore is a free agent at the end of the year. He's an asset. If the team is bad at the trade deadline, Theo could be traded for a pick. I think we can all agree that this team isn't elite. If the team is mediocre/average, I'd rather have Theodore getting the majority of the starts. Get something for him at the deadline and then the Markstrom era would begin after that, anyway.

Are we really expecting a rookie goaltender to be the difference in a season?

I'm not denying that he's better than Clemmensen or even better than Theodore, really. He probably is. But, how much better? Right now, we have the worst goal differential in hockey. A rookie goaltender is not going to solve all (or most) of our problems.

The same two goaltenders we have now were the main reason we made the playoffs last year. Wouldn't you agree that they're better than their current #'s indicate? Wouldn't you agree that you're probably just overreacting to a small sample?

Goaltending isn't even our biggest problem, sorry.

What about Versteeg? Weiss? The golden boy afraid to shoot the puck, Kulikov? Our biggest free agent signing, Filip Kuba? These guys have been underwhelming to downright terrible and they're supposed to be our best players.

It's not a good thing that our most noticeable player on most nights is 21-year-old rookie, Drew Shore.

Goaltender is not the most important position in sports. If the team in front of the goaltender is not good enough, the goaltender can only carry a team so far. Carey Price, Ryan Miller, Kari Lehtonen, Cam Ward, etc. are all pretty good goaltenders, but they still need a team in front of them to succeed, and they really don't have it.

Saying goaltending is our biggest problem is an oversimplification of things.

You're basically using a 5-game sample size to prove your point. Of the 5 games, you admit Theodore played very well in one. The win in Buffalo we'll disagree on because I thought he played well. Either way, you're basically saying it's the biggest problem because of a bad 3-4 game sample size?

What happens when Markstrom has a couple of poor games in front of this inconsistent team? Will DGM be the new savior?
Lets face it. Theodore doesn't have much left in the tank. He can't handle being a workhorse goaltender anymore which is essentially what he has to be right now with an inadequate backup like Clemmenson on the team. And at $1.5 million, nobody should be complaining that he can't handle a 60 game pace. The Markstrom experiment needs to start ASAP.

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02-10-2013, 12:55 AM
  #164
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Scoring goals has been our issue since the beginning of last season. I don't see how it's "completely wrong" to say that scoring goals is our biggest problem.

we could use more offense, but i don't think that's been a big an issue as the goaltending has.

we scored 6 vs winnipeg

4 vs buffalo

2 vs winnipeg (in a tight checking game that should have been a 2-0 win. we gave the jets nothing that game and walked out with an L)

and 2 vs philly

thats 3.5 GPG over that 4 game stretch.

i'm obviouslt ommitting tonight as it is an aberration. but we created plenty of chances in the first half of this game, too. holtby just made some ridiculous stops. that happens.

i'm not saying markstrom is going to turn this team into a cup contender, we have plenty of issues aside from goaltending. if you want to hear what i think this team needs to fix in order be a cup contender, i'd be glad to elaborate.

but i do think this is a playoff team with good goaltending. just like last years was.

we haven't gotten good goaltending

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02-10-2013, 01:28 AM
  #165
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Wow you probably feel more strongly about this than anyone has about anything ever. I certainly don't have the energy to keep up. The only point I have on the entire topic is that although Markstrom (may) be a better goalie and improve the team, it wont make as much difference as improving the teams overall play.

But i will ask a couple of things. Why are you insistent on only including the past 4 games? Yes we have played better lately, but did the first 6 games not happen? Was that not the Panthers playing? You cant just dissmiss half of our games played thus far. You or I dont know if we are closer to the team in the first 6 games, or the team in the last 4, so I don't think its right to act like they havent happened.

Second, calling the goalie "the most important position in sports" is definitely debatable (i know its a little OT) and not nearly as open and close as you suggest (Quaterbacks say hello!). Also, I think most would agree the Panthers have had above to well-above average goaltending throughout their history. Where has it taken us? No where. Missed the playoffs for 10 years. Why? Because the skaters havent been good enough. Same thing is happening now.

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02-10-2013, 01:35 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Luis Gudbrunson View Post
Scoring goals has been our issue since the beginning of last season. I don't see how it's "completely wrong" to say that scoring goals is our biggest problem.
Scoring goals has been our issue since 11 seasons ago

It's obvious we are not going to blow opponents out, more like we'll get blown out.

But right now our goaltending has been suspect AT BEST this season. Theo is one hell of an enigma right now. But if he's not doing well, and neither is Clem, why not call up Markstrom? Wouldn't having Markstrom playing well and the team winning, then us having to figure out what to do with 3 goalies be nothing but a GOOD problem?

Theo and Clem are not delivering. We win games 2-1 and 3-2 not 5-1. We need solid goaltending so why the hell not try Marky out again? He's been out of the NHL for basically a year, let's see how he's improved. Hell maybe he'll never be sent down again.

You all are so keen on keeping Shore up here because he's been so great here but you won't give Markstrom a shot? A guy who honestly has done a lot more at the AHL level than Shore has. (33 pts in 50 AHL games is nothing to brag about).

So I ask all you naysayers, WHY NOT?!

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02-10-2013, 01:43 AM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakethesnake23 View Post
Wow you probably feel more strongly about this than anyone has about anything ever. I certainly don't have the energy to keep up. The only point I have on the entire topic is that although Markstrom (may) be a better goalie and improve the team, it wont make as much difference as improving the teams overall play.

But i will ask a couple of things. Why are you insistent on only including the past 4 games? Yes we have played better lately, but did the first 6 games not happen? Was that not the Panthers playing? You cant just dissmiss half of our games played thus far. You or I dont know if we are closer to the team in the first 6 games, or the team in the last 4, so I don't think its right to act like they havent happened.

Second, calling the goalie "the most important position in sports" is definitely debatable (i know its a little OT) and not nearly as open and close as you suggest (Quaterbacks say hello!). Also, I think most would agree the Panthers have had above to well-above average goaltending throughout their history. Where has it taken us? No where. Missed the playoffs for 10 years. Why? Because the skaters havent been good enough. Same thing is happening now.
Totally agree on the QB thing, but that's OT as hell.

And I'm also in total agreement with you about the quality of players this franchise has iced over its 20 year history. We've been a team of 3rd liners FOREVER. Even when we made the Cup Finals we were a bunch of checkers who just had the right stuff at the right time. No one on that team was a "sniper" except for MAYBE Ray Sheppard

Even now, we have an abundance of 3rd liners. Smithson/Skille/Matthias are all almost identical players. We can't win games consistently with Drew Shore on our 2nd line. He's just not there yet. Too many of our guys are inconsistent. There's only a few names I would throw out that I'm actually happy with their effort (Flash, Kopy, Skille, Matthias and Strachan). Everyone else has had nights off or nights where they just decided not to show up. Regardless of this, we need more offensive talent. Last year when we started out the season we were all in awe of this team because they actually had some sort of cohesion in the offensive zone after watching 10 years of chickens with their heads cut off running around. But that still wasn't enough. We need more talent. It's in the wings, but we need to add to that talent as well from outside sources to continue to develop that offense. Nick Bjugstad will not develop and sort of offensive game on a line with Jack Skille and Scottie Upshall.


Besides all of that, I still think Marky should come up. Right now our guys aren't getting it done, but neither are our goaltenders. Let's infuse some new blood into the lineup. It worked when Shore came up, why not try Marky out?

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02-10-2013, 01:52 AM
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakethesnake23 View Post
Wow you probably feel more strongly about this than anyone has about anything ever. I certainly don't have the energy to keep up. The only point I have on the entire topic is that although Markstrom (may) be a better goalie and improve the team, it wont make as much difference as improving the teams overall play.

But i will ask a couple of things. Why are you insistent on only including the past 4 games? Yes we have played better lately, but did the first 6 games not happen? Was that not the Panthers playing? You cant just dissmiss half of our games played thus far. You or I dont know if we are closer to the team in the first 6 games, or the team in the last 4, so I don't think its right to act like they havent happened.
as i said in my response to erick, the first 6 games were a team playing without a system, likely due to the shortened training camp. all teams went through it, but it apparently hit ours harder than anyone.

when the team has gotten their system in place, they've played well, and look like a legitimately good team.

that's my belief anyway, and why i feel the way i do. there's no reason to believe the team will go into blatant disorganization and individual play unless dineen just loses the locker room, and i obviously see no reason to believe he will.



Quote:
Second, calling the goalie "the most important position in sports" is definitely debatable (i know its a little OT) and not nearly as open and close as you suggest (Quaterbacks say hello!)
.

fair enough. it's the most important position in hockey, and that's not debatable.

Also, I think most would agree the Panthers have had above to well-above average goaltending throughout their history. Where has it taken us? No where. Missed the playoffs for 10 years. Why? Because the skaters havent been good enough. Same thing is happening now


no, it's not. like i said to erick - of course good goalies need a good team. it's a team game. but a good team needs a good a good goalie, too.

we haven't had that of late, and i dont think we can afford to wait around and hope we do.

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02-10-2013, 02:26 AM
  #169
Erick
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I honestly do not know how to quote paragraph by paragraph on here so I won't even try. I will try to give my answer to your main points, though.

1. We're clearly not the same type of person. You would prefer to cite Dan Weiss opinion instead of looking at actual stats which only validate Dan Weiss opinion, in the first place. I would prefer to take both into account, placing more of an emphasis on the statistics. You can say statistics are sometimes taken out of context - true. But, Dan Weiss is also not a scout, himself. Dan Weiss also thinks that DGM has stolen plenty of points for the Rampage this year. What Dan Weiss sees might not be the same thing you see if you get to see it, and what you see is not necessarily fact, anyway. There are flaws to both methods of evaluation, but less so with statistics. There's never been a goalie considered to be good who's put up consistently bad statistics. Goalies (and players, in general) are paid based on both what scouts have seen from them AND PAST STATISTICS. Why you ignore statistics, I don't know. Better put, you only seem to ignore them when they don't suit your argument. You've used statistics plenty in this thread when they're convenient for you. Rather hypocritical if you ask me, but whatever.

2. Goaltender is not the most important position in sports. It's, at the very least, debatable. There's nothing laughable about that statement.

3. You are overreacting. Your Jonathan Quick example is actually wonderful. Jonathan Quick (and btw, Jonathan Quick was most important in LA's cup run, but LA also had a good team in front of him/part of his struggles this year have to do with injuries to the D core he had in front of him last year)...Jonathan Quick was great last year. This year, in the small sample of play thus far, he has not been great. Based on your logic, does that mean that Jonathan Quick should no longer be the #1 in LA? After all, they have a prospect in Jonathan Bernier. Why don't they give him a chance? Quick is struggling so it must be time to panic?

4. Tim Thomas was great for the Bruins. But the Bruins are also great without Tim Thomas. Could it be that the Bruins are pretty ****ing good and any solid goalie could win a lot of games for that team? The team in front of the goaltender is just as important as the goaltender. Elite teams win Cups, not teams that just rely on goalies to bail them out, so let's not just single out the goaltender for a team's success.

5. You keep bringing up 5-game sample sizes. I'm not sure why you keep disagreeing with this, but your argument is based on a small sample size.




Furthermore, hockey is a business, as well. We just signed Scott Clemmensen (mind you, I didn't like the contract) for 2 years. This happened and we have to live with it.

Waiving Scott Clemmensen makes little sense and is unnecessary.
-Theo is likely gone after this year so we're going to need a backup after the year, anyway. Why would we pay Clemmensen next year to not be on our team while also having to pay for a backup who might not even be as good next year to be on our team? There's a reason why we're fans and not GM's. That's bad business.

-Loyalty. Scott Clemmensen is the same guy who won this team 14 games last year. You don't just waive him TWO STARTS after he just signed his new contract. That, too, is bad business. We want the Florida Panthers to be an attractive place for future free agents, as well. We should also acknowledge that TWO STARTS is a ridiculously small sample size and that history suggests that Clemmensen is an NHL-caliber goaltender. Becoming the Miami Marlins of the NHL is not what we want to be.


Last edited by Erick: 02-10-2013 at 02:53 AM.
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02-10-2013, 02:32 AM
  #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
we could use more offense, but i don't think that's been a big an issue as the goaltending has.

we scored 6 vs winnipeg

4 vs buffalo

2 vs winnipeg (in a tight checking game that should have been a 2-0 win. we gave the jets nothing that game and walked out with an L)

and 2 vs philly

thats 3.5 GPG over that 4 game stretch.

i'm obviouslt ommitting tonight as it is an aberration. but we created plenty of chances in the first half of this game, too. holtby just made some ridiculous stops. that happens.

i'm not saying markstrom is going to turn this team into a cup contender, we have plenty of issues aside from goaltending. if you want to hear what i think this team needs to fix in order be a cup contender, i'd be glad to elaborate.

but i do think this is a playoff team with good goaltending. just like last years was.

we haven't gotten good goaltending
Tonight was not an aberration. Once again, using stats only when they're convenient for you.

How is it an aberration, anyway? Maybe the first two games listed were the aberration? We scored 6 at home against Winnipeg (terrible defensive team) and 4 against Buffalo (another terrible defensive team).

Aside from that, it's been little to no offense. Scoring 2 goals per game is not good enough so I'm not sure why you're listing the 2nd Winnipeg game and the Philly game as good offensive games.

The aberration, based on the rest of the young season so far and the past decade of Panthers hockey, is the first two games listed.

You think we can make the playoffs with good goaltending just like last year? COOL. You know who our two goaltenders were last year? The same two we have now! Maybe we should give them more than a handful of games to turn it around! Every goalie has bad stretches over the course of a season. EVEN JONATHAN QUICK!

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02-10-2013, 02:47 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by nhlfan9191 View Post
Lets face it. Theodore doesn't have much left in the tank. He can't handle being a workhorse goaltender anymore which is essentially what he has to be right now with an inadequate backup like Clemmenson on the team.
It worked last year under a similar team and the same system. Why can't it work again? Do people really expect Theodore and Clemmensen to post save %'s under 90 all year? C'mon, these guys are better than this, too. We know that they're better than this.

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02-10-2013, 06:49 AM
  #172
adam graves
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erick View Post
It worked last year under a similar team and the same system. Why can't it work again? Do people really expect Theodore and Clemmensen to post save %'s under 90 all year? C'mon, these guys are better than this, too. We know that they're better than this.
Did the two play over their head last year? Is it asking too much to expect them to do it again?

So far with about a quarter season over, the answer is clearly yes.

Bringing up Markstrom won't change any offensive woes, it's just a single move that will LIKELY improve our between the pipe woes.

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02-10-2013, 07:06 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by adam graves View Post
Did the two play over their head last year? Is it asking too much to expect them to do it again?

So far with about a quarter season over, the answer is clearly yes.

Bringing up Markstrom won't change any offensive woes, it's just a single move that will LIKELY improve our between the pipe woes.
I strongly agree with your first point. The two guys probably played about as well as they could. I remember with Theodore over the first 20 or so games I thought he didnt let in a single weak goal. Not one. He was far beyong what I expected and was simply lights out.

It's not unreasonable to suggest that they cant duplicate the years they had. Great point. Im just not sure Jake is the answer right now.

They and the entire team, need to step the ******* up

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02-10-2013, 08:42 AM
  #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakethesnake23 View Post
Wow you probably feel more strongly about this than anyone has about anything ever. I certainly don't have the energy to keep up. The only point I have on the entire topic is that although Markstrom (may) be a better goalie and improve the team, it wont make as much difference as improving the teams overall play.

But i will ask a couple of things. Why are you insistent on only including the past 4 games? Yes we have played better lately, but did the first 6 games not happen? Was that not the Panthers playing? You cant just dissmiss half of our games played thus far. You or I dont know if we are closer to the team in the first 6 games, or the team in the last 4, so I don't think its right to act like they havent happened.

Second, calling the goalie "the most important position in sports" is definitely debatable (i know its a little OT) and not nearly as open and close as you suggest (Quaterbacks say hello!). Also, I think most would agree the Panthers have had above to well-above average goaltending throughout their history. Where has it taken us? No where. Missed the playoffs for 10 years. Why? Because the skaters havent been good enough. Same thing is happening now.
I get such a kick out of people who accept weakness in goal. It does not matter if it is or is not the biggest problem, it is essential to solve it.

Florida should absolutely call up markstrom and waive clemmer. As much as I'd like to see the nux ship lou back there, the best alternative at this point is to try out the guy that they are betting on long term. He's already banked half a season of development time. Missing ten starts or so is nothing as compared to tthe value of having him experience the nhl.

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02-10-2013, 12:33 PM
  #175
LUUUUUIS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ginner classic;59418139[B
]I get such a kick out of people who accept weakness in goal.[/B] It does not matter if it is or is not the biggest problem, it is essential to solve it.

Florida should absolutely call up markstrom and waive clemmer. As much as I'd like to see the nux ship lou back there, the best alternative at this point is to try out the guy that they are betting on long term. He's already banked half a season of development time. Missing ten starts or so is nothing as compared to tthe value of having him experience the nhl.
I don't think anyone is accepting weakness in goal. More like questioning the existence of weakness in goal.

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