HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

HOH Top-40 Goalies Voter Record - Canadiens1958

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-08-2013, 07:20 PM
  #76
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 30,434
vCash: 500
This is a stray thought, but maybe it will resonate in a few memories.

As much as I remember Hasek dealing with rebounds in a... unique... sort of way, I remember him equally as well for the number of times shooters would completely miss a shot trying to figure him out. Shots high and wide, extra passes that skittered harmlessly away, guys just flat-out flubbing the puck. It happened quite a lot, especially when Hasek was in his special zone.

tarheelhockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 07:50 PM
  #77
Canadiens1958
Moderator
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,463
vCash: 500
Very True

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
This is a stray thought, but maybe it will resonate in a few memories.

As much as I remember Hasek dealing with rebounds in a... unique... sort of way, I remember him equally as well for the number of times shooters would completely miss a shot trying to figure him out. Shots high and wide, extra passes that skittered harmlessly away, guys just flat-out flubbing the puck. It happened quite a lot, especially when Hasek was in his special zone.
Very true. This touches on the inadequacy of the SOG/SV% metric which is the flavour of the moment.

That said neither the project nor this discussion touching on the voter record is the venue to expand and expound beyond the SOG/SV% view.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 08:00 PM
  #78
ot92s
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 726
vCash: 500
awesome highlights showing just how unpredictable hasek was...by the mid 90's this was an every night occurance. i remember tuning into sportscenter just to see what crazy stunts he pulled off. never before or since have i seen anything like a prime hasek in net. if there's video of somebody better out there, please, point me to it.


Last edited by ot92s: 02-08-2013 at 08:56 PM.
ot92s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 08:28 PM
  #79
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 20,141
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ot92s View Post
awesome highlights showing just how unpredictable hasek was...
Dude was "in the Zone" that night. Beyond aggressive of which I approve. Im not disputing his talents, Im disputing his ranking. Human Highlight Reel not required.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 09:26 PM
  #80
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,468
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Really... and who would you rate above them on just about any level you'd care to measure it by? Boston, Detroit, New York, Chicago & most assuredly Toronto are right out of the running; not a single Expansion Franchise come or gone remotely approaching the Habs' in that respect. Name one team with their record, from developing players through the old Form system & Drafts, any one that's won as much, treats its alumni with the kind of respect deserving.... g'head, dig.
This isn't 1979.

The recent Canadiens organization is the one that wanted Zdeno Chara arrested for checking one of their players. They looked like fools to the rest of the hockey world.

Not to mention they haven't been to the finals in 20 years. You should start living in the present my friend.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 09:30 PM
  #81
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,468
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Your presentation is based on a number of assumptions and pulls data from different eras.

Hasek played in the NHL from 1990 thru the dead puck era thru 2007-08. Your rebound data is from the 2007-08 era and does not reflect how the game was played pre the 2004-05 lockout. Rules changed significantly post lockout. The 2 second allowance is very generous for rebound goal since it covers the complete offensive zone as opposed to the slot.

You are operating under three assumptions that have not been vetted or supported.

1.) that the other goalies on Hasek's team were better than him in terms of rebound control. If you look at his teammates, only two were within 30 spots of him in this project - Belfour and Fuhr. No claim has been made that Belfour and/or Fuhr were better than Hasek in terms of rebound control. In Buffalo, after Fuhr was traded Hasek's back-ups were rookies - Biron or career minor league veterans - Shields, Roloson. Weaker rebound control in all instances.

2.) assuming that the data vs 1990 back-ups has meaning in terms of comparisons against other goalies vying for the top 40 spots and who retired before 1990. The only meaning it may have is in comparison to Roy and Brodeur. But you did not produce the numbers for Roy and Brodeur. Compare Hasek's numbers vs Brodeur and you will see the rebound control difference.Then watch game films to compare the statistical with the visual. Brodeur is the only goalie from the post 1990 era whose rebound control would compare with the pre 1990 goalies.
3.) your data would be interesting if it factored in the opposition. Are you assuming that against Hasek the opposition had more or fewer shoots, than against the rest of the league teams.

Interesting but far from complete.
Rebound control isn't too difficult when a goalie only faces 4 or 5 tough chances a game.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 09:49 PM
  #82
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 20,141
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
This isn't 1979. You should start living in the present my friend.
I live by Decades, Century's Dennis. Always looking forward. You'd know that if you knew me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Rebound control isn't too difficult when a goalie only faces 4 or 5 tough chances a game.
No, rebound control is instinctive, drilled & grilled into any piece of meat worth his salt. From the blocker, pad, skate, glove, wherever. You keep the puck in the play and you keep it out of the danger zone. This is not top secret. A simple primary to being an effective, responsible & conscientious Goaltender. You face far more than "4 or 5 tough chances" in a game, you face dozens, and you either take the Bull by the Horns or, you fail, crater, collapse.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2013, 10:43 PM
  #83
SaintPatrick33
Conn Smythe Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,028
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to SaintPatrick33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Really... and who would you rate above them on just about any level you'd care to measure it by? Boston, Detroit, New York, Chicago & most assuredly Toronto are right out of the running; not a single Expansion Franchise come or gone remotely approaching the Habs' in that respect. Name one team with their record, from developing players through the old Form system & Drafts, any one that's won as much, treats its alumni with the kind of respect deserving.... g'head, dig.
The Habs have 24 reasons why they are the class of the NHL. Not to mention Beliveau.

SaintPatrick33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2013, 01:09 AM
  #84
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
That is part of the Hasek paradox. His regular season SV% with outstanding defensemen - Detroit headed by Lidstrom and Chicago headed by Chelios does not impress.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...hasekdo01.html
How much did you watch Hasek in Detroit vs. Buffalo?

The general narrative was that Buffalo had an awful, atrocious defense and that Hasek was saving them all the time.

This was not the case.

Buffalo had a solid defense, but it had particular talents. The guys they had, such as Jay McKee, were very good at:
1) Clearing the crease.
2) Eliminating rebounds.

When Hasek was traded to Detroit, he came to a team that was better defensively overall, but have the same level of individual success. Why? Chelios and Fischer () were around to play the physical defensive game, but Duchesne, Olausson, Dandenault... they weren't knocking guys around in the crease. Lidstrom never really did that either. They were able to stop chances from happening, but Duchesne, Olausson, and Dandenault on rebound control? Yeah...

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2013, 03:39 AM
  #85
pluppe
Registered User
 
pluppe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 680
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
I meant position as hockey positions rather than positions on our list. I think it makes sense opinions vary the further you go down the list. I don't think there will be as fierce a debate over who's 1st in any other position so a tie or one of them taking it by a hair seems very fair.


We're all biased or these projects would have no purpose.

Of course, but thats a bit black and white though. When using it in a negative sense I use it relatively as we often do in common speak.

Just as we all lie sometimes, I can still call someone a lier. Or we all have predjudice but you can still claim someone is a rascist. There still is a line were acceptable bias ends and in my own biased opinion it was crossed here. Take it for what it´s worth.

pluppe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2013, 03:54 AM
  #86
pluppe
Registered User
 
pluppe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 680
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Ya, pluppe, honestly & most respectfully, your so far off base in suggesting this (or really any other voting member from what Ive seen & can determine) Member's partisanship (Habs fan) tainted his votes in going with Roy & Plante, both seminal goaltenders who's skills & contributions rank them 1-5 in almost any list Ive ever seen from multiple sources that it really borders on Flaming IMHO. Its direct assault on an individuals intellectual capacities, honesty & objectivity. Totally uncalled for, and obviously youve' got a burr on your shirt tail that transcends just this little exercise in suggesting such.

Quebec has been the cauldron that has produced some of the very best goaltenders to have ever played the game. As a former goaltender who did play at a very high level through both my own eyewitness observations & determinations, anecdotal educative experiences through coaching & training as a kid that I was lucky enough to have received from some of the goalies on this list, others who did play in the NHL & minors, in-game experience combined with a deep interest & passion for the position, its evolution it just so happens that Vezina, Durnan, Plante & Roy, the latter two in particular do indeed rank 1 & 2 or 1A & 1B. Personally, I rank Sawchuk as the #1 of All Time, followed by Plante, then Roy, Brodeur etc. Thats 3 of the top 5 hailing from the PQ.

Many lists, observers, do indeed rank Hasek as Best Ever, however, a great many others as well do not. Obviously, Im in this latter camp, as quite frankly I did not appreciate the manner in which he played the game. Thats not to say I didnt or dont respect him, what he achieved, I simply didnt have time for the technical aspects of his game, saw innumerable flaws, never sharing the confidence & complete admiration in him that a great many did & do for his game. Its only on the absence of his technical proficiencies that he falls behind Brodeur on my list, ranking him in the 4th position, I do so reservedly and only elevate him to that level due to his record, the hard numbers.

Finally, Edmontonians are a hockey savvy lot. I dont believe for one second that any objective hockey fan & observer would deliberately & maliciously, strategically or otherwise drop an Orr or whomever into obscurity in order to make a case for lets say Gretzky, Coffey or Kurri, placing them ahead of whomever in a purely partisan & completely biased act of subjective self indulgence. The crest on the front of the sweater is meaningless, its the name & number on the back thats important..

and hey, Im a life long Leafs fan. Was around when that meant winning, something to be proud of. You think I dont envy the wealth of riches the Habs organization has enjoyed in the crease and at virtually every other position over the past century? Canadiens' fans on the whole are extremely knowledgeable & astute observers of the game, deserving of much respect. I cant fathom any one of them ever acting subversively in hijacking an exercise of this nature in order to even further elevate their already premier position as the classiest organization in the league. Their not built that way.



Nor do I, and no place for it here on the HOH Board. I didnt participate obviously, but I will next time around... as for C58's initial "suggestion" that started this firestorm, that the Administrators or "Moderators" be non-voting non-particpatory Members, whats the problem with that? Take a vote. Ask for volunteers if its decided for purely clinical reasons and to avoid even a hint of bias or strategic voting, go for it. I dont believe for one second that 70's or TDMM, overpass or Taco influenced, framed, messed around & up in that regard in anyway whatsoever. Just not on. To be highly commended for their execution. Job well done.
I´m not surprised you think this since it seems you and C1958 often speak with the same voice. I guess we judge people differently. I think people sometimes do biased things no matter how classy the organization they belong to is. And I want to point out that C1958 started the insinuations of "non fair play" by questioning the admins motives.

And as I previously stated I did not start throwing the "weak and fallacious" around. I was merely passing it on.

We also seem to judge goalies very differently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Well this is just it. Your the "Weatherman" back there, and its your J.O.B. to keep it calm, keep it steady, control the waves incoming & outgoing on the first shot as much as possible. Because of his actions more often than not some serious white caps forming as he performed the Backstroke, the Australian Crawl, Freestyling it all over a frozen surface. Highly entertaining yes, spectacular, sensational, absolutely, just not my idea (in fact, completely anathema to it) of how the position should be played. Additionally, for all the talk of his Supernatural mental & intellectual capacities, lacking in serious skating & puck handling skills, he wasnt "transitional", wouldnt/couldnt see the forest for the tree's in headmanning the puck, catching the opposition in deep, getting the biscuit up to an open winger or whomever. Impossible to accomplish playing from the prone position.... now, Im being hard on him, however, he was/is a one-off, and he's deserving of a top 5 ranking/position. Absolutely.
You think that as a goalie "its your J.O.B. to keep it calm, keep it steady, control the waves incoming & outgoing on the first shot as much as possible."

I think it´s your job to keep the puck out of the net as much as possible. But I guess to each his own.

pluppe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2013, 05:55 AM
  #87
Master_Of_Districts
Registered User
 
Master_Of_Districts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Black Ruthenia
Country: Belarus
Posts: 1,746
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
It can actually have an inflationary effect on save percentage by creating 3 or 4 extraneous shots that subsequently get saved. 3 or 4 saves having a greater impact on one's save percentage than 1 single save does. Rinse and repeat.
You're wrong.

The chance of a rebound shot resulting in a goal is 25%.

The chance of an ordinary shot resulting in a goal is roughly 9%.

How in the hell could a tendency to allow rebounds have an inflationary effect on save percentage?

Master_Of_Districts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2013, 06:09 AM
  #88
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,278
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Of_Districts View Post
You're wrong.

The chance of a rebound shot resulting in a goal is 25%.

The chance of an ordinary shot resulting in a goal is roughly 9%.

How in the hell could a tendency to allow rebounds have an inflationary effect on save percentage?
The conjecture is that Hasek played a unique style where he left the puck in front of him while giving the shooter literally zero angle to get it on net, whereas a more traditional goalie would have just covered the puck. The overall chance of an average rebound shot resulting in a goal wouldn't be relevant to this particular situation. I think TCG showed via the average SOG between Hasek and his backups that if this had an inflationary effect on Hasek's save percentage, it was probably minimal.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 02-09-2013 at 06:18 AM.
TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2013, 06:35 AM
  #89
GuineaPig
Registered User
 
GuineaPig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Montréal
Posts: 2,105
vCash: 500
I don't exactly buy the argument that Hasek just left rebounds sitting in front of him deliberately (or as a conscious side-effect of his style) with the assumption that he would just make the rebound save. Especially considering that one of his unique traits was the way he'd go after loose pucks with his blocker.

GuineaPig is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2013, 07:09 AM
  #90
Canadiens1958
Moderator
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,463
vCash: 500
Buffalo vs Detroit

Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
How much did you watch Hasek in Detroit vs. Buffalo?

The general narrative was that Buffalo had an awful, atrocious defense and that Hasek was saving them all the time.

This was not the case.

Buffalo had a solid defense, but it had particular talents. The guys they had, such as Jay McKee, were very good at:
1) Clearing the crease.
2) Eliminating rebounds.


When Hasek was traded to Detroit, he came to a team that was better defensively overall, but have the same level of individual success. Why? Chelios and Fischer () were around to play the physical defensive game, but Duchesne, Olausson, Dandenault... they weren't knocking guys around in the crease. Lidstrom never really did that either. They were able to stop chances from happening, but Duchesne, Olausson, and Dandenault on rebound control? Yeah...
Even though you appreciate the Buffalo defensemen more than the vast majority, you still underrate them and fail to present a brief individual portrait of each as you did for Detroit. This does not mean I agree with your portrayal of the individual skills of the defensemen on each team.

Regardless of the team, defensemen, goalie or era it is always difficult for the defensemen to control and transition the puck from the congested crease/slot area with the goalie almost on top of the puck. If the defensemen cannot control and transition the puck out of the defensive zone they are left with a very poor second alternative, clearing the puck to safer areas of the defensive zone. This increases the amount of time the puck spends in the defensive zone which is never good strategy.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2013, 07:19 AM
  #91
Canadiens1958
Moderator
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,463
vCash: 500
Thank You

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
I don't exactly buy the argument that Hasek just left rebounds sitting in front of him deliberately (or as a conscious side-effect of his style) with the assumption that he would just make the rebound save. Especially considering that one of his unique traits was the way he'd go after loose pucks with his blocker.
Thank you for making my point. Was going to use this example but did not want to be inundated with youtube requests.

Perfect example of one of his technical weaknesses. Blocker also holds the stick. A lot more efficient to sweep the puck away to safety with the stick then to try to control it with the blocker that was not designed for such moves.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2013, 08:57 AM
  #92
GuineaPig
Registered User
 
GuineaPig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Montréal
Posts: 2,105
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Thank you for making my point. Was going to use this example but did not want to be inundated with youtube requests.

Perfect example of one of his technical weaknesses. Blocker also holds the stick. A lot more efficient to sweep the puck away to safety with the stick then to try to control it with the blocker that was not designed for such moves.
What? Are you kidding? You frame it as though Hasek couldn't tell when it was safe to use his stick to sweep the puck away. Hasek didn't always drop his stick to go for the puck, he only did so in goal-mouth scrambles, where attempting to clear the puck by oneself is a risky proposition.

This is becoming kind of ridiculous. You've asserted that Hasek's rebound control was significantly worse than that of his peers on this list without basis, and are now hedging that by arguing that even when he controlled his rebounds he did it wrong.

I remember that Hasek always received a fair bit of skepticism in the mid-90s for "playing the game wrong" but I find it a bit strange to see that people still hold that position given his results.

GuineaPig is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2013, 09:05 AM
  #93
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,468
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
I live by Decades, Century's Dennis. Always looking forward. You'd know that if you knew me.



No, rebound control is instinctive, drilled & grilled into any piece of meat worth his salt. From the blocker, pad, skate, glove, wherever. You keep the puck in the play and you keep it out of the danger zone. This is not top secret. A simple primary to being an effective, responsible & conscientious Goaltender. You face far more than "4 or 5 tough chances" in a game, you face dozens, and you either take the Bull by the Horns or, you fail, crater, collapse.
I was talking specifically about Brodeur, who has clearly faced less difficult chances per game over his career than any NHL goaltender I have seen.

Send me a copy of your autobiography when its done. I'm sure it will be a great read!

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2013, 09:06 AM
  #94
habsfanatics
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,003
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Thank you for making my point. Was going to use this example but did not want to be inundated with youtube requests.

Perfect example of one of his technical weaknesses. Blocker also holds the stick. A lot more efficient to sweep the puck away to safety with the stick then to try to control it with the blocker that was not designed for such moves.
Your arguments are bordering on ridiculous. Hasek did more to keep pucks out of the net, whether he picked the puck up with his bare hand or swatted it away with his stick is strictly less Aesthetically pleasing, but In Hasek's case at least as equally effective.

You arguments are weak and these projections would be better off if you weren't involved. The idea that giving up rebounds increases your SV % is the biggest LOL moment I've had on these boards in a long time. Rebounds go in 3 times as often as regular shots. Go fish.

habsfanatics is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2013, 09:10 AM
  #95
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,468
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
The Habs have 24 reasons why they are the class of the NHL. Not to mention Beliveau.
Winning = Class? (How American)

I don't think so.

Though I have no argument about The Great Beliveau.

Beliveau = Class

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2013, 10:22 AM
  #96
Canadiens1958
Moderator
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,463
vCash: 500
Scrambles

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
What? Are you kidding? You frame it as though Hasek couldn't tell when it was safe to use his stick to sweep the puck away. Hasek didn't always drop his stick to go for the puck, he only did so in goal-mouth scrambles, where attempting to clear the puck by oneself is a risky proposition.

This is becoming kind of ridiculous. You've asserted that Hasek's rebound control was significantly worse than that of his peers on this list without basis, and are now hedging that by arguing that even when he controlled his rebounds he did it wrong.

I remember that Hasek always received a fair bit of skepticism in the mid-90s for "playing the game wrong" but I find it a bit strange to see that people still hold that position given his results.
Again you are supporting my point(s).

Scrambles involve offensive and defensive skaters as well as goalies and result because the puck was not properly handled - either caught or cleared by the goalie creating a rebound to scramble for.

Defensive skaters do not drop the stick to play the puck with gloved hands. Poor technique that is inefficient and may draw a penalty or a penalty shot. Likewise for goalies, a penalty or penalty shot may result at the referees discretion.

As for results, two points.

Post Buffalo with a better team, Detroit, facing fewer SOG/G, Hasek's SV% ranged between .902 and .915, around league averages.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...hasekdo01.html

At the same age with vastly superior technique,weaker teams - St.Louis and Toronto, Jacques Plante was surpassing his prime SV% numbers with the Canadiens, nailing .940 and .944 SV%s at a time when the league average was in the .903 to . 907 range. Even on the downside of his career, Plante still manages a .907 vs a .896 league average.

Second point. Results and technique at some point have to translate into a teachable model. This is true for all the top 10 goalies on the final list except Dominik Hasek. The appreciation of vertical angles while unique to Hasek in the DPE did not originate with him. The appreciation of vertical angles in hockey and sports predates Hasek's birth. Common in pre 1980 hockey goalies and other sports - football, soccer, basketball, boxing, baseball, to name a few.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2013, 10:35 AM
  #97
GuineaPig
Registered User
 
GuineaPig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Montréal
Posts: 2,105
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Again you are supporting my point(s).
Defensive skaters do not drop the stick to play the puck with gloved hands. Poor technique that is inefficient and may draw a penalty or a penalty shot. Likewise for goalies, a penalty or penalty shot may result at the referees discretion.
OK, now I'm convinced you're just trolling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Second point. Results and technique at some point have to translate into a teachable model. This is true for all the top 10 goalies on the final list except Dominik Hasek.
No one can teach how Gretzky played the game. To most, that only enhances their opinion of him.

Basically, your critique is boiling down to "he played the game differently, he played the game uniquely. Therefore he is inferior to his peers that he outplayed." I can just imagine you arguing that Bobby Orr isn't a top 5 defenseman because "he excelled too much at the offensive spectrum of the game, a talent not intended for the position, in the process taking away opportunities for forwards (making him a bad team player)."

GuineaPig is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2013, 10:48 AM
  #98
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 7,468
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Again you are supporting my point(s).

Scrambles involve offensive and defensive skaters as well as goalies and result because the puck was not properly handled - either caught or cleared by the goalie creating a rebound to scramble for.

Defensive skaters do not drop the stick to play the puck with gloved hands. Poor technique that is inefficient and may draw a penalty or a penalty shot. Likewise for goalies, a penalty or penalty shot may result at the referees discretion.
As for results, two points.

Post Buffalo with a better team, Detroit, facing fewer SOG/G, Hasek's SV% ranged between .902 and .915, around league averages.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...hasekdo01.html

At the same age with vastly superior technique,weaker teams - St.Louis and Toronto, Jacques Plante was surpassing his prime SV% numbers with the Canadiens, nailing .940 and .944 SV%s at a time when the league average was in the .903 to . 907 range. Even on the downside of his career, Plante still manages a .907 vs a .896 league average.

Second point. Results and technique at some point have to translate into a teachable model. This is true for all the top 10 goalies on the final list except Dominik Hasek. The appreciation of vertical angles while unique to Hasek in the DPE did not originate with him. The appreciation of vertical angles in hockey and sports predates Hasek's birth. Common in pre 1980 hockey goalies and other sports - football, soccer, basketball, boxing, baseball, to name a few.
Goalies get a penalty for playing the puck with a hand? Please explain.

.902 SP when Hasek was 43. Nobody else was playing at that age except for Plante.

That's like picking out Plante's 2 years with the Rangers, when he was the worst goalie in the league, as an example. I would never do that.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2013, 11:23 AM
  #99
Canadiens1958
Moderator
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,463
vCash: 500
Teaching the Game

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post

No one can teach how Gretzky played the game. To most, that only enhances their opinion of him.

Basically, your critique is boiling down to "he played the game differently, he played the game uniquely. Therefore he is inferior to his peers that he outplayed." I can just imagine you arguing that Bobby Orr isn't a top 5 defenseman because "he excelled too much at the offensive spectrum of the game, a talent not intended for the position, in the process taking away opportunities for forwards (making him a bad team player)."
Coaches started teaching how Wayne Gretzky played the game in the late 1970's.

Gretzky converted dead zones in the offensive zones in the offensive zone into scoring zones. Prime example being how to this day offensive forwards play behind the net or goal line in the offensive zone. Evident to this day in how players like Sidney Crosby play the game and the future - Connor McDavid.

Likewise Bobby Orr who contrary to your opinion enhanced scoring by creating open ice offensively for his teammates.. Coaches started to teach defensemen how to play offensively and play the team's best skater/offensive player on defence.

That players cannot execute as well as Plante, Orr and Gretzky does not detract from the fact that their skills were and are teachable to this day and will remain so in the future.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2013, 12:17 PM
  #100
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 20,826
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Are you suggesting Buffalo & Detroits defence were lacking in some serious talent? They should never have had to have dealt with it, did their best, often times having to collapse on the play themselves. You find yourself playing in front of a goalie like that, the puck seemingly on Acid, not a whole Hell of a lot you can do but pray for the hallucinations to stop, Hasek long since gone from this mortal plane, uncommunicative.
Yes, I am. But I won't push the issue until the new top XX defensemen list is created, and I get to point out exactly how many of them DIDN'T play for the Sabres in the late 90s.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:57 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.