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Rangers/Avalanche (Ryan O'Reilly)

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Old
02-08-2013, 06:16 PM
  #101
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Rangers get McGinn and Heard
Avs get Boyle Zuccarello Bourque and Haley

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02-08-2013, 06:26 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Punxrocknyc19 View Post
Rangers get McGinn and Heard
Avs get Boyle Zuccarello Bourque and Haley
Outside of Boyle, none of those pieces really have any value. I just don't see why the Avs would trade McGinn and their recent 2nd rounder for Boyle (and that's coming from someone who LIKES Boyle). No point in moving bodies just to move bodies.

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02-08-2013, 06:36 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
Outside of Boyle, none of those pieces really have any value. I just don't see why the Avs would trade McGinn and their recent 2nd rounder for Boyle (and that's coming from someone who LIKES Boyle). No point in moving bodies just to move bodies.
McGinn is quicker and higher upside. im shocked the Sharks dealt him for so little.. Winnik is a 4th liner and TJ Galiardi has not done much lately. his best year was 2009-2010 season.

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02-08-2013, 06:37 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Punxrocknyc19 View Post
Rangers get McGinn and Heard
Avs get Boyle Zuccarello Bourque and Haley
No from the Avs. No interest.

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02-08-2013, 06:53 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
Landeskog was a factor in just under half of O'Reilly's points last season. That's a fairly large percentage. Frankly, I'm not even arguing that "Landeskog was the only reason" or anything else along those lines. My point, as it's been form the very beginning, is that O'Reilly doesn't have the track record to bring back any of what you guys expect. He's got a pair of 3rd line production seasons and one above average season that may or may not have had more to do with his line-mate than anything else. He's a question mark, even without the contract debacle. One does not trade players with 2+ seasons of consistency (Stepan, MDZ or Staal) for a gamble. From a management standpoint, it's just stupid.

That said, there are stupid GMs out there. If you DO end up trading O'Reilly, I wish you the best in fleecing one of them.

By this logic, McDonagh for O'Reilly is fair value, no?

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02-08-2013, 07:11 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
By this logic, McDonagh for O'Reilly is fair value, no?
Not quite, but nice try. First, McDonagh has a season and a half in. He and Sauer were right up there with Staal/Girardi in terms of shut-down play for the second half of 2010/11. He not only continued that play, but improved on it when he had to step into Staal's role as the top guy. His play in his first half season (shut down, minute eating 2nd pair guy) is also more valuable than what O'Reilly was prior to last season (a very good defensive center with average 3rd line offense).

One guy was impressive and then upped his game in the absence of a star partner. The other guy was average and looked better than that only AFTER receiving a star partner. He also seems afraid to do a bridge contract. Any chance even he's concerned about his production without Landeskog?

McDonagh has more of a track record. Even if he didn't, it's an absurd comparison. If you value both players on their early seasons, a #3 defenseman is always going to have more value than a 3rd line center. If you judge them both on their best seasons (ie- last year), a # 2 defenseman will always be worth more than a #2 center. And again, that's without even taking into account the fact that McDonagh has shown more and actually has a contract.

I get what you're trying to do, but the reality is what it is. The Avs have three options: trade RO'R for far less than you guys are asking for in these threads, give him the money he wants, or let him sit until he either walks or caves. Frankly, I hope the third option is the one the Avs choose. The only way to keep costs from going crazy and getting ANOTHER lockout is for GMs to exercise some control. O'Reilly hasn't earned a big payday yet. If he doesn't learn that (the way MDZ, Subban, etc) have, then he never will. A player that stupid/selfish is only a detriment to your team.

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02-08-2013, 07:20 PM
  #107
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I'm still confused why McDonagh is proven with 1.5 seasons of play and O'Reilly isn't with 1. O'Reilly was stuck behind two great centers and didn't get his injury shot until last year when Duchy went down. He was producing better than Landeskog for awhile. His defensive play combined with his offense actually elevated him into our number one center role, similar to McD elevating to #1.

If you value both players on their play last season, a #2 defender is pretty close to a #1 center depending on the players in discussion.

You honestly don't appear to know much about O'Reilly, because his game didn't suddenly show up, it simply became effective when being paired with a good winger and not being used primarily in a shutdown role.

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02-08-2013, 07:47 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
I'm still confused why McDonagh is proven with 1.5 seasons of play and O'Reilly isn't with 1. O'Reilly was stuck behind two great centers and didn't get his injury shot until last year when Duchy went down. He was producing better than Landeskog for awhile. His defensive play combined with his offense actually elevated him into our number one center role, similar to McD elevating to #1.

If you value both players on their play last season, a #2 defender is pretty close to a #1 center depending on the players in discussion.

You honestly don't appear to know much about O'Reilly, because his game didn't suddenly show up, it simply became effective when being paired with a good winger and not being used primarily in a shutdown role.
You are confused because you are looking at this through homer glasses. I'm not. I have no vested interest in O'Reilly. I'm not proposing trades for him. I don't want him on my favorite team (due to the contract nonsense) and my favorite team doesn't need him (since his position is one we are set at).

First, can Avs fans PLEASE stop resorting to telling everyone who disagrees with them that they either "don't watch O'Reilly" or "don't know much about him"? It's the internet equivalent of "nuh-uh!" and it's ridiculous. The only time I said something like that in this thread was when someone was ripping a player (MDZ) for something (bad defense) that hasn't been the case in over a year. If you see me claiming that O'Reilly has never put up more than 26 points or that he's never put up more than 3rd line production, feel free to use that. Otherwise, it's just sad.

Second--there is no world in which Ryan O'Reilly at his very best was EVER considered to be a #1 center. Ever. He played like a good #2 last year. Don't be ridiculous with the overrating here. He may have played a few games on your top line. That doesn't make him a #1. McDonagh was the Rangers' number one defenseman for all of last season. You'll note that I never referred to him as an actual #1 defenseman (and won't do so until his offense merits such a claim).

Third--players that show their worth don't get "stuck behind" other players. In one breath you claim that he was your number one. In the next, you claim that he couldn't show it because he was behind two better players. Which is it? Ryan McDonagh was behind Staal, Rozsival and Del Zotto when he came up. He won the 2nd pair LD spot by playing better than both MDZ and Rozsival (allowing the Rangers to trade Rozsival and send MDZ to the AHL to work on his defensive play). Derek Stepan was behind Anisimov when he came up. He took the 2nd line C spot away from him. Players do it every year. If O'Reilly played like a #2 center in either of his first two years, he would have been moved up. He didn't. He played like a good shut-down 3rd line center who could chip in a couple of points from time to time.

Finally, the other reason you are confused is because you don't seem to understand the concept of degrees. When McDonagh elevated his game from his rookie year (when he played a #3 role) to his sophomore year (where he played a #2 role), it was an incremental increase. You EXPECT young players to improve a bit from year to year. If McDonagh had been playing on the 3rd pair and suddenly burst onto the scene last year as a top-pairing guy, you'd have an accurate parallel. O'Reilly more than doubled his production from the previous two years. Any GM that DOESN'T raise an eyebrow at that fact isn't doing his job properly.

Again--not saying the O'Reilly isn't a 50+ point second line center. I'm just saying that I'm not going to give up the value that that kind of player would warrant until I know that he's capable of doing it more than once. There have been far too many cases of players playing way over their heads for a year and then falling off the face of the planet.

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02-08-2013, 07:59 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
I'm still confused why McDonagh is proven with 1.5 seasons of play and O'Reilly isn't with 1. O'Reilly was stuck behind two great centers and didn't get his injury shot until last year when Duchy went down. He was producing better than Landeskog for awhile. His defensive play combined with his offense actually elevated him into our number one center role, similar to McD elevating to #1.

If you value both players on their play last season, a #2 defender is pretty close to a #1 center depending on the players in discussion.

You honestly don't appear to know much about O'Reilly, because his game didn't suddenly show up, it simply became effective when being paired with a good winger and not being used primarily in a shutdown role.
It's simple, McDonagh was a HUGE part of one of the top defense pairings in the NHL last season and was arguably the Rangers best defenseman.

Ryan O'Reilly as of right now is a good two-way 2nd line center that's had one solid offensive season. Ryan McDonagh is a legitimate top pairing defenseman that's playing at a level near the top of the game and is only getting better.

McDonagh's offensive skills are actually under utilized as Tortarella absolutely REFUSES to use him on the power play, going with 4 forwards and MDZ. Anyone who watches the Rangers would probably agree with this.

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02-08-2013, 09:03 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Johnny Paps View Post
I see Avs asking for a Kreider+ for the services of ROR. But cmon NYR, havent you screwed up your roster enough by signing Nash. This guy was brought in for secondary scoring but now on the first line. Dubinsky, Anisimov(cant spell) and not signing Prust really hurt this team.
LMAO At think Nash is not a top line player. Your entire opinion is void

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02-08-2013, 09:33 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
It's simple, McDonagh was a HUGE part of one of the top defense pairings in the NHL last season and was arguably the Rangers best defenseman.

Ryan O'Reilly as of right now is a good two-way 2nd line center that's had one solid offensive season. Ryan McDonagh is a legitimate top pairing defenseman that's playing at a level near the top of the game and is only getting better.

McDonagh's offensive skills are actually under utilized as Tortarella absolutely REFUSES to use him on the power play, going with 4 forwards and MDZ. Anyone who watches the Rangers would probably agree with this.
Summary: [My] player with a small sample size, the best at his position for the team last season, is more proven than [your] player with a small sample size, the best at his position for the team last season, and you should watch [my] team to know [my] player is thus legitimate while [yours] isn't.

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02-08-2013, 09:35 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
Again--not saying the O'Reilly isn't a 50+ point second line center. I'm just saying that I'm not going to give up the value that that kind of player would warrant until I know that he's capable of doing it more than once. There have been far too many cases of players playing way over their heads for a year and then falling off the face of the planet.
I understand where you are coming from, but we're not going to sell him for anything less than what we think he can become. I think the Avs are better waiting out the year. He needs to sign a bridge contract and the Avs have all the leverage.

If you don't want to give up assets for what we believe will become a 60-70pt selke center than don't bother making an offer. He won't be sold for less just because he isn't signed. He could be a huge piece for the Avs in the future and won't be traded for anyone who won't be a huge part of the future.

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02-08-2013, 09:36 PM
  #113
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You EXPECT young players to improve a bit from year to year. If McDonagh had been playing on the 3rd pair and suddenly burst onto the scene last year as a top-pairing guy, you'd have an accurate parallel.
Oh, you mean like when O'Reilly burst out offensive the second half of his sophomore season, which plenty of Avs fans including myself were skeptical of, and then continued that into his third (and breakout) season?

Yes, if only O'Reilly had shown some indication of that underrated offensive talent of his!


Let's be honest, the entire thread and sibling threads are bunk. Avalanche fans are overly sensitive about trade value for any center, be it O'Reilly, Stastny or Duchene. O'Reilly will be signed and Avalanche fans will be happy, or he will be traded and the return will be cursed because it's not O'Reilly. I'm sure disappointment is to come...but so what? Doubt Rangers trade for O'Reilly, they don't really need him.

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02-08-2013, 09:38 PM
  #114
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Ok, let's try this from another angle. Keep in mind this is not MY logic, but rather yours for bringing up O'Reilly's 'lack of consistency' as dropping his value.

McDonagh = 1.5 seasons where an injury and the inconsistent play of Del Zotto allows him to move up. He does well. Plays like a #2 but is still far from being established as one. Essentially leads your team from the blue line for the season.

O'Reilly = 1 season where an injury and the lack of production from Stastny allows him to move up. He does well. Plays like a #1 but is still far from being established as one. Essentially leads our team from the middle of the ice for the season.

Your point, doesn't matter because O'Reilly is still only a #2 center and his past track record is 26 points a season. But that was put up as a 18/19 year old shutdown center playing with 3rd/4th line wingers. Had McDonagh played at 18/19 and been with 3rd pairing defenders i'm sure his play at that time versus now would be irrelevant to you.

My point? He's far from being a product of Landeskog and easily more than held his own last season. He has a nice slap shot, strong skating, through the roof hockey IQ and is one of the best defensive forwards in the entire league. If he has good wingers to play with he will elevate their games because of his defensive acumen and could pot 25g, 40a in an average season.

So you'll have to forgive me when I assume you don't know much about him, because in one breath you claim players that show their worth don't get stuck behind others (Staal, Seguin, Couture... Couturier today, etc) and in another you demonstrate that McD was stuck if it weren't for favorable situations, yet claim him as a stud.

I don't even think O'Reilly is worth McDonagh, but your logic dictates both are worth less than Staal, which is outright silly.

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02-08-2013, 10:20 PM
  #115
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I understand where you are coming from, but we're not going to sell him for anything less than what we think he can become. I think the Avs are better waiting out the year. He needs to sign a bridge contract and the Avs have all the leverage.

If you don't want to give up assets for what we believe will become a 60-70pt selke center than don't bother making an offer. He won't be sold for less just because he isn't signed. He could be a huge piece for the Avs in the future and won't be traded for anyone who won't be a huge part of the future.

Perfectly understandable. I'm not one of the Rangers fans making the proposal. The contract issue alone would make an O'Reilly to the Rangers trade a disaster of (NY) Jets like proportion. FWIW, I also think you should hold on to him. Partly because I think most GMs will view the situation the way I described in my earlier post (thus not offering up what Colorado would want), but mostly because I don't want another lockout. If gm's start handing out FA money on second contracts, we'll be on the fast-track to another lockout.

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02-08-2013, 10:28 PM
  #116
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Oh, you mean like when O'Reilly burst out offensive the second half of his sophomore season, which plenty of Avs fans including myself were skeptical of, and then continued that into his third (and breakout) season?

Yes, if only O'Reilly had shown some indication of that underrated offensive talent of his!

He went through a bit of a hot streak. He does that. Even last year, his offense was incredibly streaky. Frankly, if he HADN'T had that late season streak, his second year would have been a disaster on the offensive side of the puck (wasn't he on a huge point drought for a month and change before heating up?). Last season was no different. He would go through hot periods where he would put up 7 or 8 points in a 2 or 3 game span, and then nothing for half a dozen games. He actually finished last season pretty cold offensively.

McDonagh came up in January. Within two weeks, he made Michel Rozsival (a guy who, while expensive, had been a fixture on the Rangers' blueline for years) expendable. The very thing that distinguished McDonagh is the very thing that worries me about O'Reilly--consistency. McD has it. RO'R (at this point) does not.

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02-08-2013, 10:52 PM
  #117
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Ok, let's try this from another angle. Keep in mind this is not MY logic, but rather yours for bringing up O'Reilly's 'lack of consistency' as dropping his value.
This will be my last response to you in this discussion--not trying to be rude. I just need to get some real work done tonight. I will start off by stating that you either didn't understand, or refuse to see, my logic. Please try READING it logically, rather than seeing it as some attack on your guy. It isn't. I like RO'R as a player.

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McDonagh = 1.5 seasons where an injury and the inconsistent play of Del Zotto allows him to move up. He does well. Plays like a #2 but is still far from being established as one. Essentially leads your team from the blue line for the season.

O'Reilly = 1 season where an injury and the lack of production from Stastny allows him to move up. He does well. Plays like a #1 but is still far from being established as one. Essentially leads our team from the middle of the ice for the season.
Some corrections--McDonagh did not "move up" because of the inconsistent play of Del Zotto. The ONLY thing connecting Del Zotto and McDonagh is the fact that McDonagh's play allowed the Rangers to send MDZ down to the AHL for some much needed work on his defensive game.

Also, O'Reilly has NEVER played like a #1. It's not about not being established as one. He isn't one. He's never played like one. He played like a very good #2 last year. I know he's your player, but please be real here. Would you ever argue that Ryan Callahan was a first line RW? Of course not. He's a very good 2nd liner--putting up (consistently) the same combination of point totals and Selke-calibre defense that you love in O'Reilly (with physical play to boot).

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Your point, doesn't matter because O'Reilly is still only a #2 center and his past track record is 26 points a season. But that was put up as a 18/19 year old shutdown center playing with 3rd/4th line wingers. Had McDonagh played at 18/19 and been with 3rd pairing defenders i'm sure his play at that time versus now would be irrelevant to you.
Maybe McDonagh would have looked worse. I have no idea. All I know is that McDonagh today is a player who has established through parts of three seasons just what kind of player he is. THAT is my point (refuting your point that he and O'Reilly are somehow supposed to be of comparative value).

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My point? He's far from being a product of Landeskog and easily more than held his own last season. He has a nice slap shot, strong skating, through the roof hockey IQ and is one of the best defensive forwards in the entire league. If he has good wingers to play with he will elevate their games because of his defensive acumen and could pot 25g, 40a in an average season.
This is exactly the kind of nonsense I've been talking about all thread. You offer a laundry list of intangibles. Again, every team, if one listens to that team's homer fans, has "one of the best defensive forwards in the entire league." They also have guys with "through the roof hockey IQ." You know what? None of that matters unless it shows up on the ice and in the score sheet on a regular basis. There have been parades of players with those same attributes that never amounted to much more than 3rd line plugs. Some of those plugs have had a nice season or two along the way (look at Boyle's 20+ goal 35 point season from a couple years ago--that's not who he is and he's not likely to ever repeat those numbers--we know that now). The ONLY thing that separates the plugs from the top-six guys is the ability to produce year in and year out.

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So you'll have to forgive me when I assume you don't know much about him, because in one breath you claim players that show their worth don't get stuck behind others (Staal, Seguin, Couture... Couturier today, etc) and in another you demonstrate that McD was stuck if it weren't for favorable situations, yet claim him as a stud.
Please don't put words in my mouth. The Staal situation is clearly a rare event--he was behind two of the best players in the entire league. That wasn't O'Reilly's situation and it wasn't McDonagh's. Both of those players were behind eminently displace-able players (Duchene had better pedigree, but he was also a young guy who had no guarantee on a spot--Stastny had more of a rope because of his past success, but there are still ways around that, like playing one of the kid centers on a wing). O'Reilly, largely due to the fact that his offense only came in spurts and droughts, never threatened to displace anyone in his first two seasons. McDonagh played well enough that they sent one guy down to the minors to work on his game and traded a respected vet. McDonagh's play earned him that spot. O'Reilly had to wait for an injury.

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I don't even think O'Reilly is worth McDonagh, but your logic dictates both are worth less than Staal, which is outright silly.
You fail to grasp the logic, then, as I said nothing of the sort and you can only claim otherwise through logical fallacy.

Again--the logic is this:

McDonagh has shown through parts of three seasons now that he IS the player he looked to be when he led the Ranger defense. O'Reilly has not, and whether you like it or not, it will impact his value if the Avs try to trade him (which I hope they don't do--I'm hopeful that RO'R will be pressured by the isolation now that the other holdouts have signed reasonable second contracts and he's standing alone).

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02-08-2013, 11:05 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
He went through a bit of a hot streak. He does that. Even last year, his offense was incredibly streaky. Frankly, if he HADN'T had that late season streak, his second year would have been a disaster on the offensive side of the puck (wasn't he on a huge point drought for a month and change before heating up?). Last season was no different. He would go through hot periods where he would put up 7 or 8 points in a 2 or 3 game span, and then nothing for half a dozen games. He actually finished last season pretty cold offensively.

McDonagh came up in January. Within two weeks, he made Michel Rozsival (a guy who, while expensive, had been a fixture on the Rangers' blueline for years) expendable. The very thing that distinguished McDonagh is the very thing that worries me about O'Reilly--consistency. McD has it. RO'R (at this point) does not.
Uh... O'Reilly was pretty burnt out in the second half of last season. Exactly what late season 'streak' are you talking about? He was also playing more minutes than he ever had and against tougher competition. Go look at his game log, he had a 5 game slump Nov 15 to Nov 23rd, and a 4 game slump to close out the year. Besides that he never went more than 3 games without a point and only went three games without a point two or three times besides those two slumps.

Exactly how do you characterize 'consistent scoring' for a player putting up 55 points? If he was a consistent scorer he would be a 70+ point player. I'm not seeing this abundance of not scoring for 4 or 5 games and then putting up multipoint games for 2 or 3 games that your talking about. Or a month long slump...

Obviously if he plays more consistently in a top 6 center role then he is going to have better conditioning to deal with it in the near future. Trust me... He looked SERIOUSLY gassed especially in the last quarter of last season. Hes 21 and it was his first season seeing 19+ minutes a game.

The fact that he produced as well as he did playing against and shutting down the other teams top players says a hell of a lot about his potential. We were a one line team for much of the season as well. All on top of the fact that he was thrown into that role not eased into it.

There are arguments on both sides as to how proven he is but there is enough there to say that he could turn into a #1 center similar to Bergeron. Just like what you say about McDonagh though, hes not there yet. Which is why no one agrees with him getting a 5M AAV contract.

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02-08-2013, 11:27 PM
  #119
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Uh... O'Reilly was pretty burnt out in the second half of last season. Exactly what late season 'streak' are you talking about? He was also playing more minutes than he ever had and against tougher competition. Go look at his game log, he had a 5 game slump Nov 15 to Nov 23rd, and a 4 game slump to close out the year. Besides that he never went more than 3 games without a point and only went three games without a point two or three times besides those two slumps.
He had 5 points in his last 18 games. Like I said, he went a little cold to end the season.

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Exactly how do you characterize 'consistent scoring' for a player putting up 55 points? If he was a consistent scorer he would be a 70+ point player. I'm not seeing this abundance of not scoring for 4 or 5 games and then putting up multipoint games for 2 or 3 games that your talking about. Or a month long slump...
I think I've been fairly clear that I characterize being a "consistent scorer" as a player who puts up points in the same general range for a couple or three seasons in a row. An Avs fan tried to claim that O'Reilly's finish to his sophomore season showed that kind of consistency. I simply pointed out that that was a streak and you can't read too much into it (lest we forget the year that Aaron Voros was the NHL's leading scorer for a few weeks, haha). You aren't seeing the month long slump because you are looking at last season. That comment was made in regards to his sophomore season where, just prior to his end of season hot streak, he went more than two months with only a goal and a (secondary) assist to show for it on the score sheet.

As far as the streaky play last season, look at late November into early December for one example. He put up 7 points in three games and then only 2 points over the next 8. Again, not a knock. Lots of players (especially young players) are streaky. That argument was separate from the season to season consistency argument (again, in order to explain to the other Avs fan that you can't look at an isolated stretch of season to show such season to season consistency).

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There are arguments on both sides as to how proven he is but there is enough there to say that he could turn into a #1 center similar to Bergeron. Just like what you say about McDonagh though, hes not there yet. Which is why no one agrees with him getting a 5M AAV contract.
I'm not talking about what he might become. I never have been. Too many Avs fans have been responding to me as if I were attacking their player. One last time--MY ARGUMENT IS ABOUT HIS TRADE VALUE, NOT HIS POTENTIAL. If he comes back and puts up numbers like last year for another season or two, he will have the kind of value you all ascribe to him. Since he doesn't have that demonstrated consistency yet, placing such a value on him in overrating him. That is my ONLY point. Please send any other agitated and defensive Avs fans to this paragraph, because I've got to finish a review at some point tonight, haha.

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02-08-2013, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
He went through a bit of a hot streak. He does that. Even last year, his offense was incredibly streaky. Frankly, if he HADN'T had that late season streak, his second year would have been a disaster on the offensive side of the puck (wasn't he on a huge point drought for a month and change before heating up?). Last season was no different. He would go through hot periods where he would put up 7 or 8 points in a 2 or 3 game span, and then nothing for half a dozen games. He actually finished last season pretty cold offensively.
Well, at least you got one part of your paragraph correct. That is when he slowed down offensively, probably from holding the team up on his back all season but true nonetheless.

His offense in his sophomore is what you would expect from a 19 year-old pressed into a bottom-6 role on a not very good team until injuries allowed him to step up. O'Reilly got the chance in his second season and showed improvement.


Last edited by Chairman Maouth: 02-09-2013 at 01:39 AM. Reason: edit
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02-09-2013, 12:07 AM
  #121
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I'd probably do Stepan and a second for O'Reilly.

No go for the Del Zotto trade.

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02-09-2013, 02:37 AM
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Summary: [My] player with a small sample size, the best at his position for the team last season, is more proven than [your] player with a small sample size, the best at his position for the team last season, and you should watch [my] team to know [my] player is thus legitimate while [yours] isn't.
Not really, nice try though. You can drop the defensive act and stop making senseless claims by putting words in my mouth.

I may not watch ROR as much as Avalanche Fans do, you won't see me claim to do so. However, I do know the difference between a legit #1 center and a very good #2. ROR is a VERY GOOD #2 center. You and other Avalanche fans claim he's selke caliber. I disagree, being that he's on that next level just a tad below the guys who finish as finalists year in year out or win it... (Datsyuk, Kesler, Bergeron, Backes, M. Richards, etc.) but with guys Callahan, Zajac, etc. You can argue the intangibles all you want, but the difference between ROR and Ryan McDonagh is that Ryan McDonagh has stepped up to become arguably (and with a damn good argument) the Rangers best defenseman one of the BEST defensive teams in the league. His play was consistent with his play from 2011.

ROR has 1 50-point season. I'm not saying that he can't or ever will duplicate that kind of season. Hell, I think he'll be a 20 goal, 60+ point player (at the level of a Zajac, for example) when it's all said and done. However, if you want to talk sample sizes and double standards, let it be known that Ryan McDonagh has played this well since entering the league, while ROR broke out offensively in his 3rd season. In only McDonagh's 2nd season, he established himself as one of the NHL's TOP shutdown defenders while being near the top of the league in even strength points by a defenseman, quite the feat considering that he's only in his 2nd season.


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His offense in his sophomore is what you would expect from a 19 year-old pressed into a bottom-6 role on a not very good team until injuries allowed him to step up. O'Reilly got the chance in his second season and showed improvement.
That's the point that smoneil has been trying to make throughout this entire saga.

McDonagh has maintained a higher level of play for his position since entering the league as opposed to ROR, who's offense didn't break through until last season and didn't finish in the top-20 in Selke Voting until last season.

No one is trashing ROR. I said I'd trade Derek Stepan for him and I'm of the kind that believes Stepan can be a 60-70 point player someday. But some of you Avs fans need to stop getting offended by posters who are quick to point out a reason why they wouldn't give up "x" or "y" for ROR.

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02-09-2013, 02:56 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Not really, nice try though. You can drop the defensive act and stop making senseless claims by putting words in my mouth.
I'm not defensive about O'Reilly and I find a lot of Avalanche fans' posts on this forum to be quite idiotic, especially when it concerns Stastny given the typical two-faced nature on that subject; if any center is traded, a lot of fans will most likely be massively, massively disappointed.

I just consider it quite rich that you would take the angle that McDonagh is vastly more proven when he's not and try to brush that off by sustenance of play while also ignoring the age difference and other factors. You are biased regardless of what delusion you have.

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02-09-2013, 06:32 AM
  #124
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I don't know. Can somebody please tell me a bit more about Boyle?
Is he good defensively? His stats don't look that good.

Del Zotto is a great player for sure but is he a good all-around defender or is it all offense with him?

I wouldn't like to give up Barrie or Aittokallio.
Boyle is huge at like 2 meters tall. He has worked on his skating which gives him a nice forechecking element to his game. He has good speed going forward but not a lot of agility, then again considering his frame its not surprising.

The deal on Boyle is that many rangers fans feel he is the place where offense goes to die. His hands are not all that great for an NHL forward.

IF he can improve his faceoffs, and his tip in skills he could be a regular member of the 20 goal club with maybe 20 assists in one of his better seasons. He has the potential to be a beast in front of the net. He also plays the PK for NY.

He just can't seem to put it all together. Maybe Colorado would be a great fit for him. If Avs fans expect zero offense you will love it when he contributes, but if you think you are getting a 3rd line pivot with 40 point potential don't leave the light on for him. From everything I have seen of him he strikes me a stand up guy, a good interview, humble and not afraid to drop the gloves although his fighting is not up to snuff yet.

MDZ has really run hot and cold. On some nights the kid is simply fantastic. He also takes the body hard, jumps into the play well and has a rocket of a shot. On another night he trips over his skates, misses an assignment and pinches when he should reverse himself in order to cut down the angle. But he is still very young and learning to play D in the NHL. Guy is going to be top 4 material for a decade perhaps barring injury.

O'Reilly is very intriguing to this rangers fan. NY already has Stepan at pivot but Ryan brings sandpaper and would slot really nicely on a line Stepan isn't playing on. Obviously Brad Richards factors in here but it would be great to have both Stepan and OReilly up the middle for NY.

Barrie I don't know much about but his size as a Dman doesn't interest me all that much. He won't be able to move anyone out of the crease and will have to earn his living in the NHL on the offensive side of the puck. This is not the way NY plays hockey. Yes MDZ is only slightly larger but he has established himself in the league and does take the body.

anyway interesting trade idea

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02-09-2013, 06:40 AM
  #125
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As far as McDonagh goes,

its highly doubtful any team gets close to acquiring him unless his Mormon values somehow conflict with a NY lifestyle. Since I don't see that happening he is quite likely going to be Ranger for the next 5-7 years if not longer.

If he did magically end up on the Avs roster, he would quickly find himself on the top pairing and Colorado fans would have a serious man crush on him the way NY fans do now. The fact that it was for Scott Gomez AND it was the Habs who gifted him is simply honey on toast.

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