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Old
02-08-2013, 02:23 PM
  #126
freakydave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
Ballard would be bottom pairing still. Its sad to see to comments like these
Sorry but I don't believe that for a second.you are overrating your team's top 4 or just not taking into acct how much offencive difference between them & Ballard.Either way I don't think alot of fans outside of edm would agree.

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02-08-2013, 02:25 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Sarcasm. The lowest form of humor.

But all that matters are the facts:

Schneider - .908
Dubnyk - .923

And that actually includes the 6 goal drubbing he got from San Jose.
Schneiders numbers also includes his 5 goals on 14 shots against Anaheim in the season opener when his team ***** the bed in front of him.

Whats your point?

Dubnyk's career => 111 GP 2.83 gaa .911 sv%
Schneiders career => 73 GP 2.27 gaa .926 sv%

Because, you know, all that matters are the facts.

What exactly is the debate here?

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Old
02-08-2013, 02:26 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Lime View Post
To Vancouver:

F Ales Hemsky (5.0M thru 13/14)
D Mark Fistric (1.5M thru 12/13)
G Devan Dubnyk (3.5M thru 13/14)

To Edmonton:

F Chris Higgins (1.9M thru 12/13)
D Keith Ballard (4.2M thru 14/15)
G Cory Schneider (4.0M thru 14/15)

Canucks add a key piece to their forward crop in their current Cup chase. Oilers add a long term goaltending stud to backbone their hoard of draft lottery youngstars.
Here is a thought from the Oilers... Gross.

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Old
02-08-2013, 02:41 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by bhay1987 View Post


This post is what I would show someone if I needed to define how to make a compelling, sound argument based on a false premise. The "what have you done for me lately world" is for the media to keep driving stories. Dubnyk is progressing nicely for sure, but as long as you continue to hold it against Schneider that he was playing behind a top 5 goalie from the last 3 years, everything you base off of tht is just wrong. He managed to increase his playing time because of his play.

"Already blew it"...it's pretty clear what your trying to accomplish here. Something tells me you'd e signing a different tune if his logo was different.
There's a reason a coach decides to bench warm a player for a crappy performance. Unless your name is Brodeur and you have 660 odd wins, no one is going to sit down, have a coffee and say, "Well, he played pretty good last year during those small stretches. I guess I can't bench him".

You know why? Because this is a performance driven league. If you don't live up to your expectations, your ass is benched. It's pretty plain and simple. The only people who are able to get away with citing past performance are delusional fans and Martin Brodeur. What have you done for me lately is the reality of not just the media but NHL coaches and management.


Quote:
Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
Come back when you have watched Schneider play. He has play exceptional during his time in Vancouver aside from his first period this season. You make these ridiculous assumptions like "Schneider blew his chance" when he started last game and is likely to start the next one and "shoddy play this season" are you kidding me with this crap? Yes, Dubnyk is having a good start and very well could become a very good goalie, but that's no reason to make **** up about Schneider and look at the stat line after the first 10 games to determine someone's worth.
All Schneider has done was prove he is unable to carry the responsibility of being a starter. It's really no surprise that after being benched for 3 games he comes back with a great game in true back up fashion. You're only proving my point further.

As it stands right now, unless Dubnyk completely flat lines or Schneider wins the majority of his games on a reasonably respectable stretch of starts he has no game and he is Mr. Prototypical Backup and there is no way in hell I would trade Dubey for Schneider!

It's just unfortunate they have to pay him $4.5M to be one.

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Old
02-08-2013, 02:42 PM
  #130
Lonny Bohonos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lime View Post
To Vancouver:

F Ales Hemsky (5.0M thru 13/14)
D Mark Fistric (1.5M thru 12/13)
G Devan Dubnyk (3.5M thru 13/14)

To Edmonton:

F Chris Higgins (1.9M thru 12/13)
D Keith Ballard (4.2M thru 14/15)
G Cory Schneider (4.0M thru 14/15)

Canucks add a key piece to their forward crop in their current Cup chase. Oilers add a long term goaltending stud to backbone their hoard of draft lottery youngstars.
Didnt read the rest of the responses, but, I loled.

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Old
02-08-2013, 02:43 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
There's a reason a coach decides to bench warm a player for a crappy performance. Unless your name is Brodeur and you have 660 odd wins, no one is going to sit down, have a coffee and say, "Well, he played pretty good last year during those small stretches. I guess I can't bench him".

You know why? Because this is a performance driven league. If you don't live up to your expectations, your ass is benched. It's pretty plain and simple. The only people who are able to get away with citing past performance are delusional fans and Martin Brodeur.




All Schneider has done was prove he is unable to carry the responsibility of being a starter. It's really no surprise that after being benched for 3 games he comes back with a great game in true back up fashion. You're only proving my point further.

As it stands right now, unless Dubnyk completely flat lines or Schneider wins the majority of his games on a reasonably respectable stretch of starts he has no game and he is Mr. Prototypical Backup.

It's just unfortunate they have to pay him $4.5M to be one.
No need for him to be wanted by Edmonton then

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Old
02-08-2013, 02:46 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
No need for him to be wanted by Edmonton then
Nope. We already have a $4.5M backup.

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02-08-2013, 02:49 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Nope. We already have a $4.5M backup.
Lots of love for Khabby. Hes an excellent back up who a team can have full confidence in being able to step in when needed.

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Old
02-08-2013, 03:02 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Just because you've bought into the hype and feel you must abide by the unwritten HF rule that you must bow down to the status quo doesn't mean I have to.

Schneider might have been good playing back up on a team with huge depth on defense, but Dubnyk's been doing it since the last half of last year and all of this year minus that one game against SJS.

This is a "what have you done for me lately" world and the reality is Schneider blew his chance at taking the reigns of start position in Vancouver with his shoddy play this season. As it stands, I don't care what Schneider did playing limited sheltered games behind stellar D when Dubnyk has been shining in the spot light behind what most on HF considered to be the worst D corp in the league.

So until we see Schneider actually man up and show he can handle more than a handful of games here or there like Dubnyk is showing, then there is no way I'd ever consider trading him just because you don't want to "make Oil fans look bad". Grow a pair.
what a ridiculous post!

Why don't you try and actually pay attention to how the goalie is actually playing?

You talk about how Dubynk has been great but has that 1 bad loss to the Sharks... and then suggest that Schneider's play has been "shoddy" this season? Just shows how absolutely clueless you are when it comes to Schneider!

Schneider's first start this year was terrible. First start after the lockout - he let in 5 goals on 14 shots and was pulled after 26 mins.

His 4 starts since then - that's 4 out of the 5 starts he's had this season - his save % is at .940! Yea, really "shoddy" play! That's all starts he's had this season after his 26min opening night. You want to rip his entire season apart based on his first 26 mins but ignore the rest of his season - why is Dubynk not under the same criticism? He's played over 270 mins already this season, his 26min start was less than 10% of his entire season so far - and that too was the start of the year, coming off a long layoff where he didn't play any hockey during the lockout.

He's been back to his phenomenal self since that start. And that .940 shouldn't be some aberration, like it could well be for Dubnyk - who's been the picture of inconsistency throughout his career so far. Schneider, his .940 is just back along the lines of what he's been doing for the past couple years now - you know where he's led all goalie in the game with the best save% in hockey over the past 2 seasons... not a handful of games where Dubnyk would be lucky to put up those numbers.

The only thing infact that Dubynk seems to be consistent at is being inconsistent.

Shoddy play this season shows how much you've followed the season. Maybe next time instead of going to NHL.com to just look at the overall stats, you actually spend the time to break the stats down and realize where they're coming from. A player - any player - who's had one bad game to start the season, and has consistently played well since, in the other 90+% of the minutes he's played where he's put up ridiculous numbers (in this case a .940 over that other 90+% of the season), does not equate to shoddy play through the season.

And again, when it comes to actually watching the games, instead of forming your opinions by looking at the stats page, anyone who's followed the Canucks over the past couple years knows that their back to back Presidents' wins have come from goaltending being the biggest impact overall. Their defense - especially last season - was downright horrible for most of the year. If they didn't get the goaltending they did, they'd be close to a bottom-4 playoff seed, rather than winning Presidents' trophies. True they aren't as pathetic as the Oilers without that goaltending, but it was the goaltending and not the defense in front of it, which was the biggest reason for the team's success over the past couple years.

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Old
02-08-2013, 03:04 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remember2004 View Post
LOL what? I'm a Flames fan and no matter who you are you can't

justify that.
This post for the most part is bias.
Unless its 2013 and the internet exists. Then you goto NHL.com and look up the stats. For those who didnt know you could track stats


http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...centageLeaders

Dubnyk has played more games, has better stats on a worse team. Granted its a small sample size but after the all star break Dubnyk looked good and is doing it again this year.

Over the summer both are proclaimed number 1 goalies. Dubnyk goes on to have an awesome 10 games while Schnieder immediately loses the starting job. Granted he has Lou as competition not Bulin but if he is Jesus Christ reincarnated like Canuck fans have been saying for 3 years you would think he would out duel Bobby Lou for the crease.

In the long term Schnieder may be the better goalie but currently he isnt showing it and the difference between the two isnt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like gets posted every time this trade gets brought up


Last edited by Jamin: 02-08-2013 at 03:35 PM.
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Old
02-08-2013, 04:03 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Jamin View Post
Unless its 2013 and the internet exists. Then you goto NHL.com and look up the stats. For those who didnt know you could track stats


http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...centageLeaders

Dubnyk has played more games, has better stats on a worse team. Granted its a small sample size but after the all star break Dubnyk looked good and is doing it again this year.

Over the summer both are proclaimed number 1 goalies. Dubnyk goes on to have an awesome 10 games while Schnieder immediately loses the starting job. Granted he has Lou as competition not Bulin but if he is Jesus Christ reincarnated like Canuck fans have been saying for 3 years you would think he would out duel Bobby Lou for the crease.

In the long term Schnieder may be the better goalie but currently he isnt showing it and the difference between the two isnt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like gets posted every time this trade gets brought up
right there- every you wrote just gets tossed out.Both Luongo & Schneider have played 5 games--Luongo is on the trading block & they are splitting time until he gets moved.Lost the starting job

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Old
02-08-2013, 04:53 PM
  #137
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A guy over in the Jets forum did an analysis on goaltenders. Basically what he came up with is that the variance in goaltenders' save %(ie: the conditions around him) is present, but minuscule in comparison to GAA. It will typically take 10-12 games or so to minimize the outliers. Basically, save % has VERY little to do with the team around you and is a pretty accuarate depiction of the level a goalie is playing at.

This is subjective, but backed up pretty strongly by evidence. This would tell us two things, smackdaddy. One, Dubnyk has had an awesome start to the year, but unless he's taken a jump to literally beig a top 3-7 goalie NHL wide...it's not sustainable over 65 games. And two, that up until this past 1 MONTH of NHL hockey, Schneider hasn't just been better, he's been much better. Better than Luongo.

AFAIC the only reasons Luongo played an is playing as many or more games than Schneider is loyalty and salary. Then again, it is a result oriented business. It jut depends on whether you prefer a guys entire career, or one month of the current season as to who is the better player.

Vanek or Crosby good sir?

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Old
02-08-2013, 05:01 PM
  #138
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The best part is the Canucks fired 40+ shots on Dubey the other night, mostly all from the outside inflating his SV%, but when the cookie crumbled one of those soft shots from the outside beat him, giving the Canucks a point.

I'm not sure any NHL team chooses Dubnyk over Schneider if given the choice.

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02-08-2013, 05:03 PM
  #139
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Wow this is gross. In no way is the difference between Dubnyk and Schneider (which doesn't even really exist anyways) going to get you Hemsky and Fistric, and dump Ballard for Chris freaking Higgins.

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02-08-2013, 09:38 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freakydave View Post
Sorry but I don't believe that for a second.you are overrating your team's top 4 or just not taking into acct how much offencive difference between them & Ballard.Either way I don't think alot of fans outside of edm would agree.
And here you show your ignorance of the Oilers defense situation. The Oilers won't break up the Shultz combo for the undersized Ballard, its already a solid pair together. Ballard also won't break up the Smid, Petry pair so unless he makes whoever his partner is suddenly a higher priority pairing there's no way that he's not the bottom pairing defenseman aside from injury.

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Old
02-08-2013, 09:52 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by The Nuge View Post
Wow this is gross. In no way is the difference between Dubnyk and Schneider (which doesn't even really exist anyways) going to get you Hemsky and Fistric, and dump Ballard for Chris freaking Higgins.
Ballard is easily better than Fistric, Yes Hemsky is better than Higgins, but Schneider is much better than Dubnyk

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02-08-2013, 10:04 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
Ballard is easily better than Fistric, Yes Hemsky is better than Higgins, but Schneider is much better than Dubnyk
Ballard's salary is disgusting for a bottom pairing dman. Sure he's slightly better overall, but he's less physical and he'd just be our 2nd buyout. Then we'd have to go and get another guy like Fistric. Schneider really isn't much better than Dubnyk, if at all, and Oilers fans have no interest in swapping them.

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02-08-2013, 10:36 PM
  #143
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Hemsky - soft, made of glass, 50 point player

Fistric - average

Dubnyk - downgrade on Schneider

Also why the hell would we want to shore up Edmonton's goaltending?

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02-08-2013, 10:57 PM
  #144
Sergei Shirokov
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Higgins is nothing? He had a similar stat line to Sam Gagner last year and we know how Oiler fans feel about Sam. He checks and kills penalties too. Actually a pretty useful player that would help Edmonton a lot. In fact he played as much as Hemsky last year and had almost double the goals. All the while being a defensively responsible player without glass shoulders and is signed to a good contract, not a horrific one.

All things considered:

Higgins = Hemsky

Ballard is not horrible at all. Another HF myth that won't die. He's off to a great start and is not nearly as bad as people around here seem to think. He struggled adjusting to the Canucks system and gets no PP time so his offensive numbers are down, but I would be willing to bet he'd be one of the better defenders on the Oilers immediately. Fistric is a slow, plodding, physical bottom pairing defenceman. I'd bet that even with their respective salaries teams in the NHL would gladly take Ballard here.

Ballard > Fistric

Now the Schneider/Dubnyk comparison. Here's some stats to chew on:

Dubnyk:
NHL 111GP .911/2.83
AHL 132GP .907/3.02
WHL 192GP .911/2.70

Schneider:
NHL 72GP .926/2.29
AHL 136GP .920/2.31
HE 99GP .935/2.09

So Schneider is unproven and worth less than Dubnyk because he's played 39 less games? If that extra amount of games proves anything, then Dubnyk is the next Alex Auld. Schendier has put up elite numbers at every level since high school. Dubnyk? Not so much. Schneider has elite leg speed and lateral quickness, Dubnyk has trouble down low and getting accross the crease, that will get worse as he ages. There is a reason Schendier has blown Dubnyk out of the water at every stage, it's because he's of a much higher pedigree. There's a reason the Canucks were reportedly given "eye opening" offers for Schneider last year. This would be an easy choice for any GM.

Schneider > Dubnyk.

So the Canucks get a worse goalie, a worse defenceman and an injury prone, over-paid forward that would probably be valued pretty similart to Higgins all things considered, and it's a bad deal for Edmonton?

Gillis would be forced to fire himself if he looked at this deal for more than 10 seconds.

Seeing this post gave me hope that there might be a chance for this site to still have some sanity.

For all those people saying Dubynk = Schneider or that Schneider isn't much of an upgrade.

Remove his 1 bad game, and his stats are just as good as Lu's.

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02-08-2013, 11:02 PM
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Sarcasm. The lowest form of humor.

But all that matters are the facts:

Schneider - .908
Dubnyk - .923

And that actually includes the 6 goal drubbing he got from San Jose.
Good God Oilers fans stop this insanity, Schneider is clearly the better goaltender.

Remove his 1 bad game and his SV% is .935

Unlike Dubnyk Schneider isn't accustomed to letting in 1-2 bad goals a game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freakydave View Post
Just curious as to why your of that opinion?
If Smid >>Ballard--do you think smid could crack vancouver's top 4 & who would he displace ?
Maybe Garrison or Bieksa.

If they both play the way they can though then I think Smid would be stuck on the 3rd.

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02-08-2013, 11:08 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by haterbehatin View Post
And here you show your ignorance of the Oilers defense situation. The Oilers won't break up the Shultz combo for the undersized Ballard, its already a solid pair together. Ballard also won't break up the Smid, Petry pair so unless he makes whoever his partner is suddenly a higher priority pairing there's no way that he's not the bottom pairing defenseman aside from injury.
Overrating your players much?

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Old
02-08-2013, 11:18 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by The Nuge View Post
Ballard's salary is disgusting for a bottom pairing dman. Sure he's slightly better overall, but he's less physical and he'd just be our 2nd buyout. Then we'd have to go and get another guy like Fistric. Schneider really isn't much better than Dubnyk, if at all, and Oilers fans have no interest in swapping them.
I've never understood this argument. Please explain it to me.

On the Canucks he's a bottom pairing Dman. On the Canucks, he's also the 5th highest paid Dman, which puts him exactly where he needs to be.

ON another team, I can assure you with the way he's been playing, he's top 4, on certain teams, he's top pairing.

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02-08-2013, 11:28 PM
  #148
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Hah.

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02-08-2013, 11:35 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by The Nuge View Post
Ballard's salary is disgusting for a bottom pairing dman. Sure he's slightly better overall, but he's less physical and he'd just be our 2nd buyout. Then we'd have to go and get another guy like Fistric. Schneider really isn't much better than Dubnyk, if at all, and Oilers fans have no interest in swapping them.
trust me, he would be vying for a top 4 role and wtf about not physical, Ballard throws his body around quite a bit. One of our most consistently physical defenseman. You haven't seen enough of him to declare him your buyout

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02-08-2013, 11:44 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by WeridAl View Post
Right now looking at this season Dubnyk would win hands down.
Tommy Wingels is playing better than Ovie. So Wingels is better?
Michal Handzus is playing better than Phil Kessel. Wow I didnt know the Sharks had that great of players on their 3rd line!

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