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Old
02-08-2013, 12:40 AM
  #26
JetsOilersfan
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Originally Posted by Burmistrov08 View Post
Ryan Stewart was a worse draft choice than Sergei Bautin. Stewart played 3 NHL games 56 AHL games scoring 1 goal in the NHL and 6 in the AHL. Sergei Bautin scored 5 as a rookie. So who were you referring to as making the worst draft pick?

As for worst trade we dealt Selanne for the 2nd overall pick in Tverdovsky and Kilger the 4th overall pick. Winnipeg had to make a move and Selanne after his rookie year was just a bit over a point a game for the next 2 years and then scored 70 in 50 games before being dealt. This deal was bad in hindsight however the return was quite a bit at the time. Even if hypothetically we acquire the 1st round pick of theres in 1996-1999 we still only have Salei/Holmqvist/Vishnovsky and Leopold. So thats 6 1st rounders who in hindsight still make the deal look bad based on future performance. Even if we hose them and get 2000 we end up with a Alexei Smirnov who played 50+ games in the NHL then in 2001 5th overall was Stanislav Chistov another bust. So we could have gotten 8 years of 1st round picks from Anaheim and STILL the deal is lopsided towards them.

The worst trade in Jets history though was Kris Draper for $1 in a hindsight perspective.
See the bold. What are you talking about? You got it completely, utterly wrong and backwards.

Teemu Selanne holds the ROOKIE records for scoring - 76 goals, and 50 assists which is also a rookie record for points. Then he went to a point a game the next year, then he struggled even more after that. He wasn't traded right after he scored 70 goals LMAO

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02-08-2013, 12:45 AM
  #27
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Oh and it was Mike Smith - Burmistrov, we could have signed Bautin as a FREE AGENT!! I watched the draft, only time I ever saw Bob McKenzie dumfounded. As mentioned, Smith the 'mumbler' totally screwed up the name, once MacKenzie confirmed who it was he basically said "I don't know who this guy is". NO ONE did. And we picked him first. I'll never forget that stupid smirk on Smiths' face when he made it to. He thought he was pulling a fast one.

Mike - signing him as an FA, or drafting him in the last round, that would have been good.

Smith wrecked this team. Ferguson was good, but he had to contend with the Oilers and flames, that's why he was impatient. He had to find a formula to beat them, he did the Flames (until last year it was the only NHL team the Jets/Coyotes had ever beaten in the playoffs - pretty sad if you ask me) but NO ONE had the formula to beat the Oil in their heyday. And as an FYI, give the Oilers another three years, and it will be round two for them - as in another dynasty - until the salary cap forces them to dismantle

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02-08-2013, 06:22 AM
  #28
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the correct answer is Mikael Smithkov

he
was
HORRIBLE

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02-08-2013, 08:28 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
You c'mon now.


Another bad trade was the Hawerchuk trade. I remember following this closely as a kid. Smith had ample opportunity to trade him for some legit front line talent like Rod Brind'amour or Tony Amonte.

'Tony Amonte didn't play in the NHL until the FOLLOWING season, and Brind'Amour just finished his rookie season at the time of the trade. It was also widely knowl the Hawerchuk wanted out which twisted the hand of the Jets."

Smith's record speaks for itself. Promoted to GM in 1988, his teams only made the playoffs 3 of 6 seasons. Contrast that with Ferguson whose teams made the playoffs 7 out of 9 times.

The Kings and Canucks stunk in the 80s and by the time Smith was running the team, Vancouver was a very good team and the Kings had Gretzky, Robitaille, Kurri, etc.

All the more impressive when you consider he has to start from scratch as an expansion team after the NHL thought it was reasonable to completely pillage the Jets' WHA roster; and he had to contend with the likes of the Oilers and Flames in the same division for most of the Jets' early existence. Smith on the other hand, was left with a half-decent core featuring the likes of Dale Hawerchuk, Brent Ashton, Andrew McBain, Randy Carlyle, Dave Ellett, Thomas Steen, Laurie Boschman, Doug Smail, not to mention blue chippers, Selanne and Elyniuk. All that talent, and he was still incapable of icing a team that could contend for the playoffs on a consistent basis.

"The landscape of the Smythe Division had changed drastically when Smith tookover. The Canucks and Kings were no longer jokes and were just as competitive as the Oilers and Flames. It was more of a case of the most competition division rather than Smith's fault. Also Selanne was just a prospect until 1992 when he finally signed"

Smith's horrible record as GM in Chicago, based on that team's poor win-loss record and his terrible draft picks all but solidifies him as one of the worst GMs in NHL history. I don't think anyone can dispute this.
LIke I said earlier, we arent discussing Ferguson nor Smith's employment with other organizations. Just solely based on Winnipeg Jet performance.

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02-08-2013, 09:16 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Bob E View Post
Though, Mike Milbury will give him a run for 'worst GM in NHL history'. Smith was definitely the worst GM in Jets history, imo.
The worse GM in NHL history has to be Don Waddell. You guys are living with his legacy now.

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02-08-2013, 09:20 AM
  #31
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No question - Mike Smith - terrible drafting destroyed our hockey club. He may have been one of the worst GMs in the league overall.

I will say, that at least he tried. So did Paddock and Ferguson. They did some extreme things to get the team better. That's more than I can say for Chevy.

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02-08-2013, 09:22 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Bongo View Post
The worse GM in NHL history has to be Don Waddell. You guys are living with his legacy now.
Okay - I would really agree that Waddell was worse than Smith. Smith was the worst on the list, but yes! The Kovalchuk trade alone puts him in the loser category.

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02-08-2013, 09:38 AM
  #33
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I don't think you can judge a GM based on drafting. Drafts are a crapshoot. You never know how a player is going to turn out. There are endless examples of players who were taken in the first round that have never materialized to anything in the NHL.

I think you have to judge a GM based on players he aquired through free agency/waivers and the trades he has made. There is a lot more control in those instances, and the GM basically knows what he is getting in return and what he is giving up.

That said, drafting Bautin has to be one of the worst draft choices in NHL history.

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02-08-2013, 09:52 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Bongo View Post
The worse GM in NHL history has to be Don Waddell. You guys are living with his legacy now.
DING, DING, DING!!!! Woooo Hooooo! Post of the year so far! I couldn't have said it better. Rick Dudley was on his way to digging Atlanta out of the tar pits but...

Herre Waddell brought in these free agent gems: Steve Shields, Steve Rucchin, Ken Klee...and many more... Plus, he had an uncanny ability to draft a bum from an entire list of good players. The Alex Bourret pick of 2005 is legendary!

Granted he did find a few good free agents but for the most part he was a disaster. Also, I'm certainly not discounting that he, at times, had his hands tied by ownership as well.

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02-08-2013, 09:59 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by JetsOilersfan View Post
See the bold. What are you talking about? You got it completely, utterly wrong and backwards.

Teemu Selanne holds the ROOKIE records for scoring - 76 goals, and 50 assists which is also a rookie record for points. Then he went to a point a game the next year, then he struggled even more after that. He wasn't traded right after he scored 70 goals LMAO
What the 70 in 50 was reference to was 70 points in 50 games which is what he did the year he was dealt.

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02-08-2013, 10:05 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Burmistrov08 View Post
The worst trade in Jets history though was Kris Draper for $1 in a hindsight perspective.
Could have a whole thread on worst trades the Jets have made, but the Draper for a $1 trade isn't even close.

IMO the worst trade the Jets 1.0 ever made was Dave Babych for Ray ( stone hands ) Neufeld.

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02-08-2013, 10:08 AM
  #37
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I am playing a huge devils advocate since most people see Smith as being awful. Did John Ferguson make any good trades?

His draft history isn't one to brag about. Outside of Selanne he had no luck with 1st rounders. Dale Hawerchuk was the consensus #1 choice meaning every other GM would have taken him 1st overall also. If he would have been a bust at #1 it doesn't reflect on the GM since EVERYONE else in the NHL would have made the same mistake. Hawerchuk was light years better than anyone else available in the draft based on his junior performance.

So back to the advocate. What good trades did John Ferguson make? I understand how smart people are on this forum but how many of you actually are old enough to remember him?

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02-08-2013, 10:17 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Burmistrov08 View Post
I am playing a huge devils advocate since most people see Smith as being awful. Did John Ferguson make any good trades?
Good Trades IMO ( Not many, but he did have some )

March, 1984, Ferguson traded his first round selection in the coming Entry Draft and future considerations for a veteran defenseman from Pittsburgh named Randy Carlyle. One of the best moves the Jets ever made, and not just for what Carlyle did on the ice.

July, 1981, Ferguson made a five player trade with the St. Louis Blues acquiring Paul MacLean.

March, 1983, Ferguson sent Willy Lindstrom away for Laurie Boschman. Lindstrom was at the end of his carreer, Boschman gave the Jets 7 good years.

1979, Ferguson picked up a minor league player from Montreal named Ron Wilson for cash. Very good role player / PK for the Jets.

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02-08-2013, 01:51 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Good Trades IMO ( Not many, but he did have some )

March, 1984, Ferguson traded his first round selection in the coming Entry Draft and future considerations for a veteran defenseman from Pittsburgh named Randy Carlyle. One of the best moves the Jets ever made, and not just for what Carlyle did on the ice.

July, 1981, Ferguson made a five player trade with the St. Louis Blues acquiring Paul MacLean.

March, 1983, Ferguson sent Willy Lindstrom away for Laurie Boschman. Lindstrom was at the end of his carreer, Boschman gave the Jets 7 good years.

1979, Ferguson picked up a minor league player from Montreal named Ron Wilson for cash. Very good role player / PK for the Jets.
Two things...

Kris Draper > Dave Babych
Ray Neufeld 61 goals in 3.5 years > $1

Seriously, Ray Neufeld was bad but he does have some value.

Doug Bodger had 8 good offensive NHL years and played up to 2000 almost, Carlyle retired at the end of hte 92-93 season, had 5 years of offensive production. In MY opinion, we lost that trade. If you think Carlyle is great defensively 8 years in his career with -10 or worse and 1 good +20 season. Bodger had 3 years at -10 or worse.

Acquiring Paul McLean would have to be his best trade and honestly it was a great trade... HOWEVER. He also dealt a 20-22 year old Dave Christian and Brian Mullen for less than favorable returns. He also dealt McLean for Brent Ashton who holds like the NHL record for playing on the most teams.

Trading Lindstrom for a young, high rated Laurie Boschman was another great trade. It was a great trade in all levels. We lost Morris Lukowich who was a strong offensive talent and was dealt for JIM NILL!

He dealt a young Lucien Deblois to MTL for a draft bust in Perry Turnbull (2nd pick overall in 1979) He scored 20 goals twice for us then faded away.

For every good trade Ferguson may have made, I can think of 3 trades that were bad and worked against us.

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02-08-2013, 01:58 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by pcanuck View Post
No question - Mike Smith - terrible drafting destroyed our hockey club. He may have been one of the worst GMs in the league overall.

I will say, that at least he tried. So did Paddock and Ferguson. They did some extreme things to get the team better. That's more than I can say for Chevy.
Huh? Chevy signed the best avaialable free agent centre this off season. Not to mention the fact that trades during hte cap era are far less frequent than before.

Not entirely sure what you expect the guy to be doing. Especially since ownership's mandate was to mainly build the team through the draft.

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02-08-2013, 03:50 PM
  #41
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Great thread. Lotsa memories.

The Babych for Neufeld trade is the most traumatic memory from my childhood. But Fergie did do some good things that I apparently forgot about over time.

Fergie was our Burkie? hahahaha

The retuen for Hawerchuk was puzzling to me. I loved getting Housely, but for our team needs it really has to be considered a mistake. I remember the hopes of that season for "offense from the defense" which turned into absolutely no offense at all.

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02-08-2013, 06:12 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Bongo View Post
The worse GM in NHL history has to be Don Waddell. You guys are living with his legacy now.
Well, i dare say we are a bit further along than the NY Islanders, though Milbury and Snow have set that franchise back a decade and it will take another decade for them to be a cup contender.

Waddell had great draft positions, and selected decent guys very high in the draft (some picks notwithstanding), but then moved them for nothing which completely crippled the franchise. Started the 'rebuild' again in 2008, but has little to show for it several years later.

Chevy has his work cut out, but he needs to figure out where this team is right now, and act accordingly. If it's a sub-500 team that won't make the playoffs for a year or two more, then might as well get more high picks and prospects. Jets fans haven't endured a 6 or 7 year playoff drought with this team yet, so a 'shorter rebuild' might be okay. If they truly believe they are close, move pick(s) and/or prospect(s) for the key piece(s) you need.

I'm not likely what i'm seeing from Chevy's trade, FA or waiver pick-ups so far: Fehr, Mittens, Clitsome, Olli, Poni, Montoya, Wright or Welly. A case could be made that not one of those players has become a consistent impact player for the Jets. Chevy has not acquired one via FA or trade. Jury still out on our draft picks.

We need impact player(s).

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02-08-2013, 06:25 PM
  #43
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Although Fergie made some bonehead moves/draft picks my vote still goes for Mikhail Smith. At least Fergie had enough respect for the organization and the NHL to dress & groom for the part.

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02-08-2013, 06:34 PM
  #44
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How was it good smith traded hawerchuk?

Hawerchuk > housley + tkachuk

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02-08-2013, 07:16 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Bongo View Post
The worse GM in NHL history has to be Don Waddell. You guys are living with his legacy now.
Wow I wish we could have Braydon Coburn on defence.
Giving him up for Alexei Zhitnik was one of the worse trades ever.

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02-08-2013, 07:16 PM
  #46
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Great thread.

I forgot about the good old days when Fergie would make 2 or 3 huge trades every year just to shake **** up!

The Selanne for Tverdovsky and Kilger trade needs to be recognized as the worst trade in Jets 1.0 history. Granted, that move falls on Coyotes ownership BUT Paddock got...WHAT? I remember him puffing out his chest at the time saying that the trade made Jets a better team right now! Are you kidding me?

The second worst trade in Jets history is the Hawerchuk trade. I don't think you can factor Tkachuk into the deal, considering that WPG moved down in the draft and happened to luck out. So, realistically, it was Hawerchuk for Housley.....and we got hosed. In Housley's defense, he was deserves credit for about 50 of Teemus 76 goals with breakaway passes, but.....still.

Beautin was definitely the worst draft pick in Jets history. Another bust pick that never gets talked about enough...Aaron Ward drafted 5th overall.....ahead of PETER ****ING FORSBERG at #6.

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02-08-2013, 09:01 PM
  #47
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Mike Smith X 1000. For those not old enough to remember it was a horror story. I wouldn't let him run a pee-wee team Never mind an NHL franchise.

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02-08-2013, 10:19 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
How was it good smith traded hawerchuk?

Hawerchuk > housley + tkachuk
No way in hell Selanne does what he does in his rookie season without Housely.

The forward depth and defensive layout of the team screamed for an offensive defenseman.

Housely + Tkachuk >>> Hawerchuk and when you consider organizational needs it was a slam dunk

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02-09-2013, 02:28 AM
  #49
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No way in hell Selanne does what he does in his rookie season without Housely.

The forward depth and defensive layout of the team screamed for an offensive defenseman.

Housely + Tkachuk >>> Hawerchuk and when you consider organizational needs it was a slam dunk
Hawerchuk and Mike Smith apparently had a bad falling out, not to be out done as well, Housley had a bad falling out with Smith.

That whole 1993-1994 season was probably the most horrendous season I can recall, Selanne had a sophomore slump and gets injured half way through the season, Bob Essensa gets traded to Detroit for Tim Cheveldae, we lose 50+ games, Stu Barnes gets traded for Randy Gilhen, blah..such a mess.

One of the few bright spots was Keith Tkachuk's 40 goal season, finally breaking out to his power forward routine.

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02-09-2013, 11:34 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
You c'mon now.

There's no reason to believe he forced those deals on Smith. You're actually going to try to convince me he told Smith to trade Draper for a buck? Draper had barely played any games for the Jets before Smith gave up on him, not to mention he was paid #### all so cost considerations wouldn't have played a role. Same with Stu - made very little money and was hardly given a chance with the organization. Fact is, Smith showed very little patience with his picks and really had no long-term build strategy for the JEts.

Another bad trade was the Hawerchuk trade. I remember following this closely as a kid. Smith had ample opportunity to trade him for some legit front line talent like Rod Brind'amour or Tony Amonte. Instead he ended up trading him for Phil Housley, Scott Arniel and Jeff Parker. Value-wise it was reasonable, but it was very poor asset management on Smith's part as it failed to address the Jets' needs on offense. The Jets already had three offensive defensmen in Olausson, Ellett and Numminen (Numminen being a good two-way defenseman and Ellett to a lesser degree). Sure enough, after a poor start to the season, in part because of the Jets ****-poor offense, the JEts ended up trading one of the Fab Four, Dave Ellett, along with the previous season's team leading goal-scorer, Paul Fenton, for Eddie Olczyk and Mark Osborne. Too little, too late as the Jets continued to struggle to score goals and ended up out of the playoffs. A difficult feat considering 16 of 21 teams made the playoffs.

Smith's record speaks for itself. Promoted to GM in 1988, his teams only made the playoffs 3 of 6 seasons. Contrast that with Ferguson whose teams made the playoffs 7 out of 9 times. All the more impressive when you consider he has to start from scratch as an expansion team after the NHL thought it was reasonable to completely pillage the Jets' WHA roster; and he had to contend with the likes of the Oilers and Flames in the same division for most of the Jets' early existence. Smith on the other hand, was left with a half-decent core featuring the likes of Dale Hawerchuk, Brent Ashton, Andrew McBain, Randy Carlyle, Dave Ellett, Thomas Steen, Laurie Boschman, Doug Smail, not to mention blue chippers, Selanne and Elyniuk. All that talent, and he was still incapable of icing a team that could contend for the playoffs on a consistent basis.

Smith's horrible record as GM in Chicago, based on that team's poor win-loss record and his terrible draft picks all but solidifies him as one of the worst GMs in NHL history. I don't think anyone can dispute this.
What a great trip down memory lane. I agree that Smith wins this particular contest, hands down, but he was still an interesting and quirky guy to look back on. He was really book smart (?PHD) and had progressive ideas (esp WRT Europeans) but couldn't translate that to success in the real NHL world. I see that personality type in my world all the time. Ferguson was almost the complete opposite.

One last thing about Smith in the GOOD column. One of his last acts, before being fired as Chicago GM, was to draft a fella by the name of Dustin Byfuglien, 245th in the 2003 draft.

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