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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread III

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Old
02-09-2013, 12:17 AM
  #376
BubbaBoot
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Cool.....just anxious.

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02-09-2013, 12:19 AM
  #377
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Viking Maniacs selects Gary Suter.

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02-09-2013, 12:24 AM
  #378
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Anybody looking to move up? Pick 221 could be available.

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Old
02-09-2013, 12:35 AM
  #379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papershoes View Post
You're seriously going to discount 8 seasons of play because of one subpar season, and the speculation that he may have been on steroids?

When searching around for hockey and the link to steroids, I came across some articles that had been written indicating that a current superstars point drop-off can be linked to steroid use (personally, I think the articles are crap but, the speculation, and subsequent lack of definitive proof, are still there - similar to Krutov). Do we discount all of his previous seasons because of one sub-par season (by his standards)?
It's not about discounting seasons, it's about making a best guess as to how good a player he really was - without steroids. We know this much:

1. In Vancouver, he stunk, and did not have steroids.
2. In the ussr, he was awesome, but may have been on steroids. How likely is it that he was? It's impossible to attach a numerical answer, but certainly most of us suspect him of steroid use significantly more than we would any other player.

Saturn likes to refer to a high and low end of a range of how great a player may have been and picking him appropriately based on the midpoint of that range. The fact that he has had stronger allegations of juicing against made him than anyone else makes a HUGE impact on his low end value, which should affect his ATD value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Dr. Henry Walton "Indiana" Jones had a doctorate in archeology, wasn't a medical doctor. Recchi is not a doctor of any kind. He opened his big mouth about concussions and had it ridiculed. Google it and see, since you missed the memo (and the media about it).

Mark Recchi knows me (only Brashear, Cooke and Ohlund do likewise, because I was a newspaper reporter at Canucks training camp) and I know him well enough (we played golf together in high school, had drinks, chatted on the street a few times in our ol' hometown of Kamloops, being the same generation, he a year older).

Recchi is great but overrated around here. I'll never be able to draft him because he is going before a dozen other right wingers I think wholeheartedly more worthy (though not as lucky to have played with such ideal linemates as he has). Nice guy, though. And he has a quality shot and smart, safe pass. He is not particularly fast, nor creative, nor physical. He is not the stirstick of a line but he can whip some topping and blend in well. (Excuse me, I'm thirsty, apparently).


"You come to Dr. Recchi? K, I have bridge to sell you. Good for ya head. "
You badly underrated Recchi. Do any of these dozen wingers have 3 top-5 finishes in points? What about 9 times in the top-20? Did they ever lead the league in any category? Did they win 3 cups with 3 teams? Did they have a 30 point playoff? How many points did they score in a final at age 43?

And who exactly did Recchi benefit from? In all his biggest seasons he was the guy scoring the most points on his line. He turned into a shotgun rider post-lockout, but at his best, his linemates benefited from him, not vice versa.

In the ATD, is he the "stirstick" of a line? No, not unless it's a 3rd or 4th line. But he went at the right time, both in overall pick number, and relative to other RWs. He belongs on a 1st line here, though preferably as the 3rd most talented member. He's actually pretty similar to Robitaille.

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02-09-2013, 12:41 AM
  #380
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
1. In Vancouver, he stunk, and did not have steroids.
How do we know he did not have steroids in Vancouver?

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Old
02-09-2013, 12:42 AM
  #381
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Art Ross is a great pick, but I don't know if I'd play him with Al MacInnis.

Just checking to make sure GMM is up. I have his list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord
Saturn likes to refer to a high and low end of a range of how great a player may have been and picking him appropriately based on the midpoint of that range. The fact that he has had stronger allegations of juicing against made him than anyone else makes a HUGE impact on his low end value, which should affect his ATD value.
I assume "Saturn" is supposed to be Sturm? Heh. I basically agree with this. At his "high end," Krutov was the best LW of the 80s, better than Robitaille and Goulet for sure. But there's a reason they get drafted ahead of him - more certainty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord
In the ATD, is he the "stirstick" of a line? No, not unless it's a 3rd or 4th line. But he went at the right time, both in overall pick number, and relative to other RWs. He belongs on a 1st line here, though preferably as the 3rd most talented member. He's actually pretty similar to Robitaille.
Agree with this basically - I like Recchi as the 3rd best member of a 1st line, or the 2nd best member of a 2nd line. The fact that he's a rare playmaker from the wing gives him added value.

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02-09-2013, 12:44 AM
  #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
You badly underrated Recchi. Do any of these dozen wingers have 3 top-5 finishes in points? What about 9 times in the top-20? Did they ever lead the league in any category? Did they win 3 cups with 3 teams? Did they have a 30 point playoff? How many points did they score in a final at age 43?

And who exactly did Recchi benefit from? In all his biggest seasons he was the guy scoring the most points on his line. He turned into a shotgun rider post-lockout, but at his best, his linemates benefited from him, not vice versa.

In the ATD, is he the "stirstick" of a line? No, not unless it's a 3rd or 4th line. But he went at the right time, both in overall pick number, and relative to other RWs. He belongs on a 1st line here, though preferably as the 3rd most talented member. He's actually pretty similar to Robitaille.
There's that intangible thingy with Recch alsoi. He was definitely the 'guy' in the Bruins locker room during their 2011 Cup run.

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02-09-2013, 12:56 AM
  #383
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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
There's that intangible thingy with Recch alsoi. He was definitely the 'guy' in the Bruins locker room during their 2011 Cup run.
Lets not pretend like he was the Ray Bourque of that locker room or anything. Also, he was such a dick in Pittsburgh that Crosby had a sit down with management to ship him out apparently.

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02-09-2013, 01:03 AM
  #384
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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
There's that intangible thingy with Recch alsoi. He was definitely the 'guy' in the Bruins locker room during their 2011 Cup run.
come on

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02-09-2013, 01:05 AM
  #385
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Lets not pretend like he was the Ray Bourque of that locker room or anything. Also, he was such a dick in Pittsburgh that Crosby had a sit down with management to ship him out apparently.
No, he's no Bourgue and yes he is a dick but the Bruins kids thrived on him. He's credited with getting Bergeron to go one step further and had a few talks with Marchand, getting him to rein in his crap for the most part, had blessings from Julian on that too. He was also pretty hard on himself. If he had a bad game he acknowledged it, and his quote, "The critics can kiss my ass" was supposed to be a bit of a joking rallying cry in the locker room.

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02-09-2013, 01:07 AM
  #386
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come on
As incredulous as it may sound, he was a good fit in that locker room.

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02-09-2013, 01:19 AM
  #387
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Art Ross is a great pick, but I don't know if I'd play him with Al MacInnis.

Just checking to make sure GMM is up. I have his list.
Yes, gmm is up.

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Old
02-09-2013, 01:24 AM
  #388
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Stoneberg View Post
Yes, gmm is up.
Thank you. I didn't want to post his pick without confirmation with all the hubub going on.

He picks Cecil "Tiny" Thompson, G

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Old
02-09-2013, 01:25 AM
  #389
BubbaBoot
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Another good pick.

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02-09-2013, 01:42 AM
  #390
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Not sure how much longer Bubba will be but it's almost 4 here, can someone take my 2 name list for the next pick?

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02-09-2013, 01:44 AM
  #391
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Well, the 3 guys I wanted to choose from all lasted. If I can get 1 of the next 2 I'll be a happy camper, although I would imagine that both should be snapped up.

The Boston Mules pick Vladimir Lutchenko.



8 World Championships.
10 Russian League titles.
2 Olympic gold medals.
7 time Russian all-star.

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Old
02-09-2013, 01:51 AM
  #392
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Halifax selects Glenn Anderson, RW to round out their top six forwards early.

Leaning towards:
Bentley-Yzerman-Anderson
Foyston-Primeau-Hull

Will pm next.

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Old
02-09-2013, 02:02 AM
  #393
TheDevilMadeMe
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The trade still hasn't been voted through, but even if there is a problem with it, I think it's a small enough trade where it's easy to negotiate a solution.

If someone wants to collect the picks from today, I can add them to the OP after I get back from playing in the blizzard.

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Old
02-09-2013, 02:09 AM
  #394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The trade still hasn't been voted through, but even if there is a problem with it, I think it's a small enough trade where it's easy to negotiate a solution.

If someone wants to collect the picks from today, I can add them to the OP after I get back from playing in the blizzard.
It wasn't put through?

I thought it was okayed....I don't understand, especially all the ruckus over it.

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02-09-2013, 02:59 AM
  #395
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Back to the question of competition in 1980's Russia, was he really a superstar or did he just look like a better hockey player than he really was?
Well, if he wasn't, he fooled a LOT of watchers - me included - and opposite players; heck, already as a 19-year old (check this play/goal from 1980 --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdWHxHdzHNo#t22min49sec)

If I was to say something negative about him (pre-NHL), it would be that he was a little inconsistent in the early years. In their overview of 1982 World Championships, a Finnish hockey book says that Krutov is the weak link of the KLM line due to his 'selfishness'. But this was before KLM/Green Unit REALLY broke through (in the 1983 WC) and in 1986-88 or so Krutov really did look like the best player of his forward line... and a genuine superstar.

I think the whole Green Unit looked like they were in decline even before they went to the NHL. Their stats from the 1989 World Championships are not nearly as impressive as before; IMO the 2nd line had gone by KLM by that time. Of course, at this stage, they were not getting along very well - with Tikhonov and (some) not even with each other.


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Old
02-09-2013, 05:24 AM
  #396
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Doesn't that completely miss the point? The point, as I see it, is that there is a reasonable chance that the non-juiced and terrible Krutov that we saw in Vancouver was the true representation of his ability and not what happened in the eight previous seasons.
Prove he wasnt juiced. Please do. I would like to see this. In fact, show me the drug test that shows he was juiced in the first place.

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02-09-2013, 06:29 AM
  #397
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We select LW, Wayne Cashman

Early cause of the guy I am PMing right now.

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Old
02-09-2013, 06:31 AM
  #398
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Prove he wasnt juiced. Please do. I would like to see this. In fact, show me the drug test that shows he was juiced in the first place.
Demands of proof in this setting are just bizarre. Black and white thinking will get us nowhere here. When studying the history of hockey, we must deal in possibilities, descriptions, anecdote and circumstance, which is all we have other than statistics. If you don't like that or need absolute certainty when forming judgments, I would suggest sim hockey for you.

A small thought experiment:

Go out for a drive. How many of the other drivers you see on the road have violated one or more traffic laws in the last 24 hours? The vast majority of them, in all likelihood, so then why is it that we don't just punish everyone? Evidence.

We can suspect anyone we like of steroid use, but until evidence is introduced, it's really just talk. But there is evidence against Krutov, in a book written by a responsible journalist which includes the testimony of both Larionov and the Vancouver trainers. This evidence has also never been rebutted, not by Krutov, Larionov, nor the Canucks organization. What Ed Gilles wrote about Krutov would be considered libel under no uncertain terms if it were untrue. The simple fact that no party involved in the allegation has spoken out against Gilles' depiction of the facts is pretty telling.

There is also the quite extreme circumstances of Krutov's abbreviated north american career, which is cause for ATD doubts about him on its own merits, but is many times more damning in light of our legitimate suspicions about his steroid use while playing for the soviet union. Then there is his physical profile, itself, which was also quite "special" at his peak. Such a small man in build, and yet so amazingly strong. No one piece of the puzzle is enough to draw a conclusion, but the whole picture looks highly, highly suspect.

Does that mean we know he doped? No, it does not. We don't know anything here, but rather do our best to form judgments based on available information. But many of us see strong reason to believe Krutov doped, and we have seen his low-end potential as a hockey player. If that is who Krutov really was as a hockey player, then his only role in the ATD should be wearing a mascot suit and shoving hot dogs in his face while we walks around the second deck at home games.

****ing Krouton isn't worth all the energy we waste on him.

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02-09-2013, 06:56 AM
  #399
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Demands of proof in this setting are just bizarre. Black and white thinking will get us nowhere here. When studying the history of hockey, we must deal in possibilities, descriptions, anecdote and circumstance, which is all we have other than statistics. If you don't like that or need absolute certainty when forming judgments, I would suggest sim hockey for you.

A small thought experiment:

Go out for a drive. How many of the other drivers you see on the road have violated one or more traffic laws in the last 24 hours? The vast majority of them, in all likelihood, so then why is it that we don't just punish everyone? Evidence.

We can suspect anyone we like of steroid use, but until evidence is introduced, it's really just talk. But there is evidence against Krutov, in a book written by a responsible journalist which includes the testimony of both Larionov and the Vancouver trainers. This evidence has also never been rebutted, not by Krutov, Larionov, nor the Canucks organization. What Ed Gilles wrote about Krutov would be considered libel under no uncertain terms if it were untrue. The simple fact that no party involved in the allegation has spoken out against Gilles' depiction of the facts is pretty telling.

There is also the quite extreme circumstances of Krutov's abbreviated north american career, which is cause for ATD doubts about him on its own merits, but is many times more damning in light of our legitimate suspicions about his steroid use while playing for the soviet union. Then there is his physical profile, itself, which was also quite "special" at his peak. Such a small man in build, and yet so amazingly strong. No one piece of the puzzle is enough to draw a conclusion, but the whole picture looks highly, highly suspect.

Does that mean we know he doped? No, it does not. We don't know anything here, but rather do our best to form judgments based on available information. But many of us see strong reason to believe Krutov doped, and we have seen his low-end potential as a hockey player. If that is who Krutov really was as a hockey player, then his only role in the ATD should be wearing a mascot suit and shoving hot dogs in his face while we walks around the second deck at home games.

****ing Krouton isn't worth all the energy we waste on him.
Yea because if you dope you automatically get stronger without exercise. There is a reason he was fat in the US. Everything he did points at clinical depression (abnormal appetite, drinking, apathy).

The fact that it hasnt been refutted means nothing if its true that Krutov was depressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mats Wennerholm
At the same time, he had put the thumb on Krutovs problems.
- Both he and Larionov got here from another world and the first time they were shopping they filled two shopping carts at the grocery store. They did not understand that all the food would be left on the shelves the next day, said Robert Nordmark, who was the only Swedish Krutov played with during his only NHL season in Vancouver.
- For Krutov it became a little too much and he put on weight. But he was a nice guy, even if you got less contact with him than with Larionov. Krutov talked's no English.
The club team CSKA and the Soviet national team had Krutov accustomed to taking orders and living trapped in a strict military regime throughout their career.
Training camp for nine months a year, iron discipline and specific meals.
The new freedom was too much.
**
After one season in Vancouver ended Krutov in Zurich, Switzerland.
He made ​​himself impossible there.
Overweight, tired, uninspired.
The rest were Östersund and Brunflo in Swedish Division 1 and 2.
A sensation in itself, but it folded quickly and his four years in Jämtland quickly disappeared into oblivion.
He was just 32 years old when he arrived in Östersund in 1992, but already a has-been who spent more time at the local pizza than on the ice.
A soiled end to a fabulous playing career.
If we really are going to diminish a players career because he either was too depressed to refute the accusations of doping or might have doped then we could just shut down the ATD as we would get into which player took cocaine and how many of the modern players drink medicine containing epherdrine every night.

Edit: Btw the traffic analogy is pretty bad. Its impossible to test and catch every driver BUT you can however test a majority of hockey players in the NHL and catch them. NHL however doesnt see that as a viable business.

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Old
02-09-2013, 07:02 AM
  #400
TheDevilMadeMe
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Swamp Devils pick

Ilya Kovalchuk, LW/RW
  • 6'3" 230 lbs
  • Goals: 1st, 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 6th, 6th, 7th, 8th
  • Assists: 15th, 18th
  • Points: 2nd, 5th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 11th
  • IIHF Best forward in 2009
  • Led his team in playoff points in 2 of the 3 seasons he made the playoffs.
  • RH shot from the point on the powerplay

VS scores 100, 92*, 86, 83, 82, 78, 67, 64, 61, 57

*used 3rd place in 2006

2012 playoffs
  • Led the Cup runner-up in points and tied for the team lead in goals.
  • 2nd on his team in overall TOI, and 1st among forwards by a wide margin (1:51 more than 2nd place), largely due to the massive amount of time he can handle playing the point of the PP
  • Tied for the overall playoff lead in goals with 8, 3rd in overall playoff points with 19, the co-leaders had 20.

Kovalchuk is a flawed player, but his shot front the point on the power play is absolutely deadly, and I think he's accomplished enough in his career by this point to be the centerpiece of a second line, especially now that he's recently completed the best all-round season of his career and he's done it as a right-winger.

Kovalchuk will also contribute to the Swamp Devils being one of the better teams in the draft at celebrating:



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