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02-09-2013, 06:56 AM
  #51
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He could have 6 art Ross trophies, but only played 63 games in 96-97 and recorded 95 points.

He also won the scoring race in 99-00 having only played 63 games that season. That is a level of dominance no player in the league can even come close to now.

People truly forget how dominating this guy was. He lapped the competition in era where it wasn't easy to do so. The chances of someone winning the scoring race while only playing 63 games now is almost zero.

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02-09-2013, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Exactly!

He also listed Sakic and Niedermayer who are not generational talents. They were both great but not generational.

How Jagr gets left off of his list is also mindboggling. Lindros was also a generational talent who's career was cut short due to injuries. A generational talent is a player who is better than the other superstars and is virtually an unstoppable force at the height of their career.

Most recent generational talents IMO

Crosby
Malkin
Lidstrom
Jagr
Lindros
Bourque
Lemieux
Gretzky

Yzerman, Forsberg, Sakic, Hull, Selanne, Coffey, Leetch, Pronger, MacInnis, Niedermayer and Chara are all consistent superstars/stars but are not generational imo.
Lindros was dominant but for that long. He didn't define or shape a generation, he defined or shaped a 2 or 3 years. He never won a cup and in 20 years young sports fans won't know who he was the way we knew who Mikita, Orr, and Dionne were.

You could say Lindros was a generational talent, but you can't say he was a generational player.

Gretzky is not recent.

It's fascinating you include Jagr as an obvious generational talent, but not Mark Messier. Messier has better stats, and he led the 1990 Edmonton Oilers and 1994 NY Rangers to cups... Jagr led a lot of teams to 2nd round playoff exits.

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02-09-2013, 07:01 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Lindros was dominant but for that long. He didn't define or shape a generation, he defined or shaped a 2 or 3 years. He never won a cup and in 20 years young sports fans won't know who he was the way we knew who Mikita, Orr, and Dionne were.

You could say Lindros was a generational talent, but you can't say he was a generational player.

Gretzky is not recent.

It's fascinating you include Jagr as an obvious generational talent, but not Mark Messier. Messier has better stats, and he led the 1990 Edmonton Oilers and 1994 NY Rangers to cups... Jagr led a lot of teams to 2nd round playoff exits.
Messier belongs in the group of Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg etc.

Jagr was the undisputed best player in the league for a number of years......Messier cannot make that claim.

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02-09-2013, 07:02 AM
  #54
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Lindros was dominant but for that long. He didn't define or shape a generation, he defined or shaped a 2 or 3 years. He never won a cup and in 20 years young sports fans won't know who he was the way we knew who Mikita, Orr, and Dionne were.

You could say Lindros was a generational talent, but you can't say he was a generational player.

Gretzky is not recent.

It's fascinating you include Jagr as an obvious generational talent, but not Mark Messier. Messier has better stats, and he led the 1990 Edmonton Oilers and 1994 NY Rangers to cups... Jagr led a lot of teams to 2nd round playoff exits.
He was a great player. In their respective primes Yzerman was ahead of Messier. Peaked higher, mess did it longer.

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02-09-2013, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
He could have 6 art Ross trophies, but only played 63 games in 96-97 and recorded 95 points.

He also won the scoring race in 99-00 having only played 63 games that season. That is a level of dominance no player in the league can even come close to now.

People truly forget how dominating this guy was. He lapped the competition in era where it wasn't easy to do so. The chances of someone winning the scoring race while only playing 63 games now is almost zero.
I think that for a player to define an era, he has to win cups in a leadership capacity, or at least come very close to winning it all the way Johan Cruyff (football player) did in 1976.

The regular seasons are played at a higher level than the playoffs, it's not the same game.

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02-09-2013, 07:03 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Messier belongs in the group of Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg etc.

Jagr was the undisputed best player in the league for a number of years......Messier cannot make that claim.
This, I doubt you'll find anyone in the history section who puts Messier over Jagr.

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02-09-2013, 07:09 AM
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I think that for a player to define an era, he has to win cups in a leadership capacity, or at least come very close to winning it all the way Johan Cruyff (football player) did in 1976.

The regular seasons are played at a higher level than the playoffs, it's not the same game.
Hogwash. The 2nd or 3rd best dman of all-time played for a team that never won a cup in the 20 years he was there, but he was the only horse they had(Ray Bourque). He then won a cup on a stacked Avalanche team. One player can't win a cup. Even the greatest of all-time failed to do so outside of Edmonton when put on a team that wasn't very good. Gretzky turned the kings around almost immediately, but even he wasn't enough.

Would you say Bourque wasn't a generational talent if he hadn't been traded to Colorado at the end of his career? Jagr suffers from a European bias, if his name was Scott Smith, he'd be in the top 10.

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02-09-2013, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
This, I doubt you'll find anyone in the history section who puts Messier over Jagr.
Good for them.

Anyhow, sorry to be part of a group that derailed the thread over the last page, I only mean to make the point that though Price is a potential generational player, he's definitely not one now and he has his work cut out for him if he wants to achieve that level of success.

I think he needs at least a couple Vezinas, a half-dozen Vezina nominations or more, 2 or 3 cup rings, and a conn smythe, approximately.

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02-09-2013, 07:13 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Good for them.

Anyhow, sorry to be part of a group that derailed the thread over the last page, I only mean to make the point that though Price is a potential generational player, he's definitely not one now and he has his work cut out for him if he wants to achieve that level of success.

I think he needs at least a couple Vezinas, a half-dozen Vezina nominations or more, 2 or 3 cup rings, and a conn smythe, approximately.
Cup rings are irrelevant when naming a player as a generational talent.

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02-09-2013, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Hogwash. The 2nd or 3rd best dman of all-time played for a team that never won a cup in the 20 years he was there, but he was the only horse they had(Ray Bourque). He then won a cup on a stacked Avalanche team. One player can't win a cup. Even the greatest of all-time failed to do so outside of Edmonton when put on a team that wasn't very good. Gretzky turned the kings around almost immediately, but even he wasn't enough.

Would you say Bourque wasn't a generational talent if he hadn't been traded to Colorado at the end of his career? Jagr suffers from a European bias, if his name was Scott Smith, he'd be in the top 10.
Do you have trouble with reading comprehension at 7am?

That would be fine, I do too :-)

I explicitly listed Johann Cruyff as an example of a generational talent (another sport but whatever) who didn't win the greatest prize of all; it's the exception. He's a player people remember and watch tapes of several decades later, he's considered one of the best ever, he redefined the game's strategy, and though he didn't win he came close.

Sounds like Ray Bourque.

I wrote:

"he has to win cups in a leadership capacity, or at least come very close to winning it all"

For a player who doesn't lead his team to championships, achieving the label of generational talent is even harder. In the case of Carey Price though, if he's ever to become a generational player, he will have to win cups imo.

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02-09-2013, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Cup rings are irrelevant when naming a player as a generational talent.
You love playing devil's advocate.

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02-09-2013, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
None of the guys listed are generational talents except Lidstrom. Crosby perhaps, but he's been too hurt to lump into this category. Superstars != generational talents.

guys like Sakic were near the top for a long time, but never separated from the pack in any given year.

Lemieux, Gretzky, Yzerman, Bourque, Lids, Roy, Hasek, maybe crosby. Those are generational talents. Everyone who is very good is not a generational talent.
You could even throw Selanne in there

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02-09-2013, 07:18 AM
  #63
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So some of you have confirmed:

1. Wouldn't trade him for NO other goalie in the NHL
2. Looks to be likely starter for team canada
3. He's not even in his prime, which suggests we still haven't seen his best


Just because goalies today are a lot better than they were during Roy's prime doesn't mean that Carey can't be considered a generational talent. It's relative to the era.

How else can a goalie become a generational talent? Or have we come to the point where generational goalies are extinct?

Do we really need to compare the starting goalies of 1993 versus 2013? The ''difference'' argument doesn't work as it's 2 different eras. Generational talent needs to be adjusted as the sport ages and parity among top players increases.
I think Price will be the best goalie in the game. I don't think he'll be THAT dominant over the next best goalie that he'll be considered a generational talent.

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No doubt in my mind.. The question should be.. will PK Subban be joining him on the Blue Line??? He's got a shot... especially if he tones it down a bit and his production keeps rising!
PK should be there. Don't know if he will be but he should.
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He is a somewhat of a longshot to make the team. As of right now Doughty, Keith, Weber, Pietrangelo and Letang are absolute locks. That leaves 1 spot for Seabrook, Staal, Myers, Girardi, Boyle, Burns and Subban. I personally think that spot will be between Seabrook, Girardi and Staal. Team Canada doesn't have a shortage of offensively gifted d-men so they will be looking for a stay at home/penalty killer/shot blocker who can still be contribute offensively. These 3 fit the bill perfectly as Subban is still too much of a gambler to be considered for this role.

His only chance will be an injury to one or more of the players that I mentioned as locks.
He's not as much of a gambler as he was at the beginning of last season. He's continued to improve defensively and his skating would be awesome on that big surface.
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It's very likely that Chara will eventually close the 151 game on Pronger.

Both have won a cup, but Chara won one as a captain and as the leader, Pronger won his as the first officer to captain Niedermeyer.

I may be suffering from a northeast division bias, as I get the impression that Chara is a generational player in that he redefines the game. He indirectly makes a lot of goons around the NHL irrelevant, not by fighting them directly though he sometimes does, but because the rest of his team will fight them more, and then you need other goons to fight those goons, etc. There's no denying that the entire northeast division has added a lot of grit in the past two years. Having reverberations on other lineups is a good criteria for a generational player.

It's a fair point though. Pronger has two cup finals (game 7 finals!) with Edmonton and Philadelphia to go with his cup win in Anaheim, and he has a whopping 230 points of additional offensive production on Chara. 1 or 2 more lucky bounces in Edmonton-Carolina 2006 and Philadelphia-Chicago 2010 and this isn't a discussion: Chris Pronger would arguably be on par with Bobby Orr and Nicklas Lidstrom.

Given all that, I'm not going to argue against somebody who thinks Pronger is a generational talent.
Pronger>Chara. Neither are generational talents but both will be in the HOF.

Lidstrom was a generational talent.
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
None of the guys listed are generational talents except Lidstrom. Crosby perhaps, but he's been too hurt to lump into this category. Superstars != generational talents.

guys like Sakic were near the top for a long time, but never separated from the pack in any given year.

Lemieux, Gretzky, Yzerman, Bourque, Lids, Roy, Hasek, maybe crosby. Those are generational talents. Everyone who is very good is not a generational talent.
Yzerman, Messier, Sakic, Belfour, Coffey, Chelios, Jagr... all are in the same group. Really, really good. HOF type guys but I don't consider any to be generational talents.

Hasek, Roy, Lemieux, Gretz, Bourque, Lidstrom, Crosby... In my opinion those are generational talents. Really separated from the crowd and clearly the best at their positions. I actually think OV and Lindros had generational talent as well. They didn't fulfill their promise for different reasons but both were absolutely incredible.

Carey Price I think will fall into the category of best at his position and having a great career. Then again I thought Chris Higgins was going to be a 40 goal man so...

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02-09-2013, 07:19 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Hogwash. The 2nd or 3rd best dman of all-time played for a team that never won a cup in the 20 years he was there, but he was the only horse they had(Ray Bourque). He then won a cup on a stacked Avalanche team. One player can't win a cup. Even the greatest of all-time failed to do so outside of Edmonton when put on a team that wasn't very good. Gretzky turned the kings around almost immediately, but even he wasn't enough.

Would you say Bourque wasn't a generational talent if he hadn't been traded to Colorado at the end of his career? Jagr suffers from a European bias, if his name was Scott Smith, he'd be in the top 10.
Well said!

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02-09-2013, 07:22 AM
  #65
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Good for them.

Anyhow, sorry to be part of a group that derailed the thread over the last page, I only mean to make the point that though Price is a potential generational player, he's definitely not one now and he has his work cut out for him if he wants to achieve that level of success.

I think he needs at least a couple Vezinas, a half-dozen Vezina nominations or more, 2 or 3 cup rings, and a conn smythe, approximately.
I agree with you here. He's consistently one of the best, but to be a generational talent you have to be the undisputed best for a period of time. I think he is on the cusp of doing just that, but there is more competition at this position than ever before. It will be tough for any one goaltender to lay claims to the undisputed best for the foreseeable future. Lundquist is closest to being able to make that claim, but I don't feel he's great deal above price either.

BTW: In 2009 messier ranked 1 spot ahead of Jagr's on the alltime list, mostly based on longevity ect, but views have shifted dramatically since then. More European voters have also influenced rankings. I've seen Jagr as high as 11th all time on these lists. People are now shifting their views from team performances to individual performances and realizing one player can't make a team. There is not a change in hell that Guy Lafleur or Mike bossy should be ahead of Jagr.

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02-09-2013, 07:28 AM
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I think Price will be the best goalie in the game. I don't think he'll be THAT dominant over the next best goalie that he'll be considered a generational talent.


PK should be there. Don't know if he will be but he should.

He's not as much of a gambler as he was at the beginning of last season. He's continued to improve defensively and his skating would be awesome on that big surface.

Pronger>Chara. Neither are generational talents but both will be in the HOF.

Lidstrom was a generational talent.

Yzerman, Messier, Sakic, Belfour, Coffey, Chelios, Jagr... all are in the same group. Really, really good. HOF type guys but I don't consider any to be generational talents.

Hasek, Roy, Lemieux, Gretz, Bourque, Lidstrom, Crosby... In my opinion those are generational talents. Really separated from the crowd and clearly the best at their positions. I actually think OV and Lindros had generational talent as well. They didn't fulfill their promise for different reasons but both were absolutely incredible.

Carey Price I think will fall into the category of best at his position and having a great career. Then again I thought Chris Higgins was going to be a 40 goal man so...
No disrespect Lafleurs guy, but there is no chance Jagr is in the group you've mentioned. He has more Art Ross/Lester B Pearsons than everyone on your list combined. Coffey and Chelios aren't even in the same ballpark. I know their dman, but outside of a year or two, neither were the best dman in the league.

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02-09-2013, 07:29 AM
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Lindros was dominant but for that long. He didn't define or shape a generation, he defined or shaped a 2 or 3 years. He never won a cup and in 20 years young sports fans won't know who he was the way we knew who Mikita, Orr, and Dionne were.

You could say Lindros was a generational talent, but you can't say he was a generational player.

Gretzky is not recent.

It's fascinating you include Jagr as an obvious generational talent, but not Mark Messier. Messier has better stats, and he led the 1990 Edmonton Oilers and 1994 NY Rangers to cups... Jagr led a lot of teams to 2nd round playoff exits.
Crosby and Malkin have also led their teams to some early playoff exits......not sure what your point is?

If Messier is recent then so is Gretzky. They are both the same age but Gretzky chose not to hang on and play like crap like Messier did for his last 3 seasons.

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02-09-2013, 07:32 AM
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No disrespect Lafleurs guy, but there is no chance Jagr is in the group you've mentioned. He has more Art Ross/Lester B Pearsons than everyone on your list combined. Coffey and Chelios aren't even in the same ballpark. I know their dman, but outside of a year or two, neither were the best dman in the league.
Have to agree with you once again. Jagr is darn near a poster boy for generational talents.

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02-09-2013, 07:35 AM
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I agree with you here. He's consistently one of the best, but to be a generational talent you have to be the undisputed best for a period of time. I think he is on the cusp of doing just that, but there is more competition at this position than ever before. It will be tough for any one goaltender to lay claims to the undisputed best for the foreseeable future. Lundquist is closest to being able to make that claim, but I don't feel he's great deal above price either.

BTW: In 2009 messier ranked 1 spot ahead of Jagr's on the alltime list, mostly based on longevity ect, but views have shifted dramatically since then. More European voters have also influenced rankings. I've seen Jagr as high as 11th all time on these lists. People are now shifting their views from team performances to individual performances and realizing one player can't make a team. There is not a change in hell that Guy Lafleur or Mike bossy should be ahead of Jagr.
Being ranked high on the all-time list might not mean as much, as some generations might be more stacked than others.

I think the playoffs matter a lot more than a regular season. The playoffs are higher-pressure, rivalry is involved, and you can't pad your stats by beating up on bad teams like you can in the regular season. I'm pretty sure it's been shown in the NFL for example that team record against good teams is a better predictor of success than team record against bad teams. Playing against good teams takes a different skill set than playing against bad teams.

Finally, this is the most important point, the point of the game is to win the stanley cup, not the art ross, not the lester pearson, and not the president's trophy. I bet if you interviewed 100 random people at the bell center half of them wouldn't know what the president's trophy is, other than being a brand of overrated chocolate chip cookies.

ETA: I think I'm the only person here who sees Malkin as on par with Crosby.

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02-09-2013, 07:40 AM
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Crosby and Malkin have also led their teams to some early playoff exits......not sure what your point is?

You can't win every year.

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If Messier is recent
I never wrote that Messier was recent.

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02-09-2013, 07:44 AM
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Being ranked high on the all-time list might not mean as much, as some generations might be more stacked than others.

I think the playoffs matter a lot more than a regular season. The playoffs are higher-pressure, rivalry is involved, and you can't pad your stats by beating up on bad teams like you can in the regular season. I'm pretty sure it's been shown in the NFL for example that team record against good teams is a better predictor of success than team record against bad teams. Playing against good teams takes a different skill set than playing against bad teams.

Finally, this is the most important point, the point of the game is to win the stanley cup, not the art ross, not the lester pearson, and not the president's trophy. I bet if you interviewed 100 random people at the bell center half of them wouldn't know what the president's trophy is, other than being a brand of overrated chocolate chip cookies.

ETA: I think I'm the only person here who sees Malkin as on par with Crosby.
Your analogy doesn't hold water in either football or hockey. No one player can actually win a championship in these sports.

If you want to use basketball as an example you would have a much stronger case.

The previous poster spelled this out very clearly with the Raymond Bourque example. A player is a generational talent based solely on his own performance.....not the performance of the rest of the team. There really wasn't any room for further debate after this example was given.

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02-09-2013, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I agree with you here. He's consistently one of the best, but to be a generational talent you have to be the undisputed best for a period of time. I think he is on the cusp of doing just that, but there is more competition at this position than ever before. It will be tough for any one goaltender to lay claims to the undisputed best for the foreseeable future. Lundquist is closest to being able to make that claim, but I don't feel he's great deal above price either.

BTW: In 2009 messier ranked 1 spot ahead of Jagr's on the alltime list, mostly based on longevity ect, but views have shifted dramatically since then. More European voters have also influenced rankings. I've seen Jagr as high as 11th all time on these lists. People are now shifting their views from team performances to individual performances and realizing one player can't make a team. There is not a change in hell that Guy Lafleur or Mike bossy should be ahead of Jagr.
Just think if Price can play as long as Broduer has what we'll be saying about it him?

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02-09-2013, 07:47 AM
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No disrespect Lafleurs guy, but there is no chance Jagr is in the group you've mentioned. He has more Art Ross/Lester B Pearsons than everyone on your list combined. Coffey and Chelios aren't even in the same ballpark. I know their dman, but outside of a year or two, neither were the best dman in the league.
Jagr isn't a generational talent in my book. Great player but didn't compete against Gretz or Lemieux. I don't see him as being that much better than Yzerman or Sakic. Yeah he won more trophies but he wasn't competing against Gretz/Lemieux the way the others were (and in fact benefited from Lemieux) and some of the other guys (particularly Yzerman) played on horrible teams. Yzerman somehow managed 155 points with Gerrard Gallant as his linemate. Absolutely ridiculous to be able to do that - and he STILL didn't win the scoring title.

Jagr will probably be held in higher regard at the end of the day due to the awards (and he was amazing) but for those of us old enough to remember - Yzerman was just as good. The season before his 155 point year he might've been even better but got hurt. The guy was a seriously awesome player and there's not enough difference between Jagr and Sakic or Yzerman for me to say that he was generational. If Jagr's generational then so is Yzerman, Hull, Messier etc...

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02-09-2013, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Being ranked high on the all-time list might not mean as much, as some generations might be more stacked than others.

I think the playoffs matter a lot more than a regular season. The playoffs are higher-pressure, rivalry is involved, and you can't pad your stats by beating up on bad teams like you can in the regular season. I'm pretty sure it's been shown in the NFL for example that team record against good teams is a better predictor of success than team record against bad teams. Playing against good teams takes a different skill set than playing against bad teams.

Finally, this is the most important point, the point of the game is to win the stanley cup, not the art ross, not the lester pearson, and not the president's trophy. I bet if you interviewed 100 random people at the bell center half of them wouldn't know what the president's trophy is, other than being a brand of overrated chocolate chip cookies.

ETA: I think I'm the only person here who sees Malkin as on par with Crosby.
Malkin > Crosby on most nights

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02-09-2013, 07:58 AM
  #75
DAChampion
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Your analogy doesn't hold water in either football or hockey. No one player can actually win a championship in these sports.

If you want to use basketball as an example you would have a much stronger case.

The previous poster spelled this out very clearly with the Raymond Bourque example. A player is a generational talent based solely on his own performance.....not the performance of the rest of the team. There really wasn't any room for further debate after this example was given.
No player can win a championship but they can be an MVP and at the very least, come close.

Ray Bourque made the stanley cup finals in 1988 and 1990. He made the conference finals in 1991 and 1992. You make it sound like he was a playoff slouch and failure; he wasn't. Rules of thumb such as "player has to win a cup" are that, rules of thumb. Sometimes exceptions happen and you need to take a step back and think. Bourque is the exception here, not the rule. And though he never led his team to a championship, he did dominate very well at all levels and redefine his position. He is like Johann Cruyff.

But since you value the regular season so much, I suspect you consider Joe Thornton to be a generational player. Multiple trophies for individual achievement in the 82 game season, and a career that should break 1500 points.


Last edited by DAChampion: 02-09-2013 at 08:04 AM.
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