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Will Price be the starter in Sochi?

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Old
02-09-2013, 09:06 AM
  #76
Estimated_Prophet
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Jagr isn't a generational talent in my book. Great player but didn't compete against Gretz or Lemieux. I don't see him as being that much better than Yzerman or Sakic. Yeah he won more trophies but he wasn't competing against Gretz/Lemieux the way the others were (and in fact benefited from Lemieux) and some of the other guys (particularly Yzerman) played on horrible teams. Yzerman somehow managed 155 points with Gerrard Gallant as his linemate. Absolutely ridiculous to be able to do that - and he STILL didn't win the scoring title.

Jagr will probably be held in higher regard at the end of the day due to the awards (and he was amazing) but for those of us old enough to remember - Yzerman was just as good. The season before his 155 point year he might've been even better but got hurt. The guy was a seriously awesome player and there's not enough difference between Jagr and Sakic or Yzerman for me to say that he was generational. If Jagr's generational then so is Yzerman, Hull, Messier etc...
I am old enough to remember and Jagr was superior to Yzerman.

Jagr never played a single game in the 80's when 100 point scorers were growing on trees. Messier only eclipsed 100 points once after the 80's so it would be silly to put him in the same category as Jagr who has played the majority of his career without Lemieux. In 98-99 Jagr had 44 more points than the second leading scorer on his team (Straka) and 71 more points than the 3rd leading scorer (Titov). He won the scoring title in the midst of the Dead puck era by 20 points over Teemu Sellane.

Comparing stats from different eras is ridiculous without accounting for the differential in the rate of production for the respective eras.

There really is no debate.....Jagr is a generational talent. It is a fact.

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02-09-2013, 09:06 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Being ranked high on the all-time list might not mean as much, as some generations might be more stacked than others.

I think the playoffs matter a lot more than a regular season. The playoffs are higher-pressure, rivalry is involved, and you can't pad your stats by beating up on bad teams like you can in the regular season. I'm pretty sure it's been shown in the NFL for example that team record against good teams is a better predictor of success than team record against bad teams. Playing against good teams takes a different skill set than playing against bad teams.

Finally, this is the most important point, the point of the game is to win the stanley cup, not the art ross, not the lester pearson, and not the president's trophy. I bet if you interviewed 100 random people at the bell center half of them wouldn't know what the president's trophy is, other than being a brand of overrated chocolate chip cookies.

ETA: I think I'm the only person here who sees Malkin as on par with Crosby.
Sure the goal is to win the cup. That's everyone's goal, including Jagr's. However, history has shown that one or two or even 3 player isn't enough. You can't downplay an individual based on team statistics. The Art Ross/Lester B Pearsons is an individual award awarded to players based on their own merits, regardless of their team. The only thing an individual can influence is his own performance, if his team isn't a cup caliber team has no bearing.

I think it would be unfair to suggest that winning the scoring race and being voted by your peers as the best in the world somehow negatively impacted your teams chances at winning a cup. Not that you're doing that here, but some things are out of your control, even if your name is Mario Lemieux, Wayne Gretzky or Bobby Orr.

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02-09-2013, 09:08 AM
  #78
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
I am old enough to remember and Jagr was superior to Yzerman.

Jagr never played a single game in the 80's when 100 point scorers were growing on trees. Messier only eclipsed 100 points once after the 80's so it would be silly to put him in the same category as Jagr who has played the majority of his career without Lemieux. In 98-99 Jagr had 44 more points than the second leading scorer on his team (Straka) and 71 more points than the 3rd leading scorer (Titov). He won the scoring title in the midst of the Dead puck era by 20 points over Teemu Sellane.

Comparing stats from different eras is ridiculous without accounting for the differential in the rate of production for the respective eras.

There really is no debate.....Jagr is a generational talent. It is a fact.
It's not fact, it's opinion. Esp since there are different definitions on what a generational talent actually is. That's all I'm going to say.

Now uh, back to Carey Price...

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02-09-2013, 09:08 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
PK should be there. Don't know if he will be but he should.
I agree that PK is among the best, however, there's a couple of factors working against him:

- Canada is stacked at RD. Doughty, Weber, Pietrangelo, Seabrook (if they want to keep the Chicago pair together), Letang...

- One of PK's strengths, a reason he's so valuable in the NHL is his stamina. IMO that's not really an asset at the Olympic level, given Canada's depth. The same reason Bouwmeester loses some of his appeal at that level.

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02-09-2013, 09:11 AM
  #80
Estimated_Prophet
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
No player can win a championship but they can be an MVP and at the very least, come close.

Ray Bourque made the stanley cup finals in 1988 and 1990. He made the conference finals in 1991 and 1992. You make it sound like he was a playoff slouch and failure; he wasn't. Rules of thumb such as "player has to win a cup" are that, rules of thumb. Sometimes exceptions happen and you need to take a step back and think. Bourque is the exception here, not the rule. And though he never led his team to a championship, he did dominate very well at all levels and redefine his position. He is like Johann Cruyff.

But since you value the regular season so much, I suspect you consider Joe Thornton to be a generational player. Multiple trophies for individual achievement in the 82 game season, and a career that should break 1500 points.
If you have read my posts over the years you would know that I put alot more emphasis on playoff prformances. Jagr has always been great in the playoffs but one forward can't come close to winning a championship for his team. As for Thornton I have always stated that he is a bum as he stays on the perimeter and doesn't drive the net like you need to in the playoffs.

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02-09-2013, 09:13 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
I am old enough to remember and Jagr was superior to Yzerman.

Jagr never played a single game in the 80's when 100 point scorers were growing on trees. Messier only eclipsed 100 points once after the 80's so it would be silly to put him in the same category as Jagr who has played the majority of his career without Lemieux. In 98-99 Jagr had 44 more points than the second leading scorer on his team (Straka) and 71 more points than the 3rd leading scorer (Titov). He won the scoring title in the midst of the Dead puck era by 20 points over Teemu Sellane.

Comparing stats from different eras is ridiculous without accounting for the differential in the rate of production for the respective eras.

There really is no debate.....Jagr is a generational talent. It is a fact.
I agree, quite frankly, arguing otherwise is absurd. Although I do feel that Yzerman was pretty unfortunate to matchup against Gretz, Lemieux during his peak. Remove them both and he still doesn't hold a candle.

Jagr is the definition of a generational talent, he's accomplished things that only the big 3 or 4 have done. Dominance against his peers. Winning the scoring race despite missing 20% of the season ect, beating teammates by 44 points and on and on.

Plus his all around game is vastly under rated, one of the best puck possession players in the history of the game, if not, the very best. He had better dominance at 5on5 than Mario Lemieux for christ sakes. His lack of defense was and has been overstated, he drove the play towards the oppositions end more than nearly every player in the history of hockey.

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02-09-2013, 09:14 AM
  #82
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Probabley, but luongo will only be a year removed from the great year he is having as well..so there`s a chance for him to be as well. I couldn;t believe ferraro didnt have luu on his projected lineups....crazy....this guy was there and done it before...he`s still got some good years left in him.

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Old
02-09-2013, 09:19 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by bigtimehockeyfan999 View Post
Probabley, but luongo will only be a year removed from the great year he is having as well..so there`s a chance for him to be as well. I couldn;t believe ferraro didnt have luu on his projected lineups....crazy....this guy was there and done it before...he`s still got some good years left in him.
The Canucks want to get rid of him because he doesn't play well in big games. This is the same reason that he may very well be left off of Team Canada. In 2010 we won gold despite him.....not because of him.

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02-09-2013, 09:23 AM
  #84
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Timely article:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...shape_cox.html

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02-09-2013, 09:37 AM
  #85
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Lafleurs Guy, Price isn't that much better than his competition but that marginal difference makes him a elite since the average goalie today is by far more superior than one from 15 years ago.

What this means is that we have to adjust what the ''difference'' becomes. How do you want a goalie to be a generational talent stats wise, when already the save percentage averages and such are riding all time highs.

If we don't adjust, generational talents will become extinct, surely in the goaltending position.

If Price continues to progress and remains the goalie he is for another 10 years (ie: the one you wouldn't trade for any other goalie) than HE IS a generational talent. If he wins 2 or 3 cups with that, than he becomes equiv to Roy (Legendary).

You can't expect generational talents to start inventing new records or having 4 cup rings or whatever. 1 or 2 rings is suffice.

(*note that Price has the potential to BE not is)

And for the Record:

Sakic, Yzerman, and Jagr are all generational talents in my book.

Gretzky and Lemieux are LEGENDS.

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02-09-2013, 09:51 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Lafleurs Guy, Price isn't that much better than his competition but that marginal difference makes him a elite since the average goalie today is by far more superior than one from 15 years ago.

What this means is that we have to adjust what the ''difference'' becomes. How do you want a goalie to be a generational talent stats wise, when already the save percentage averages and such are riding all time highs.

If we don't adjust, generational talents will become extinct, surely in the goaltending position.

If Price continues to progress and remains the goalie he is for another 10 years (ie: the one you wouldn't trade for any other goalie) than HE IS a generational talent. If he wins 2 or 3 cups with that, than he becomes equiv to Roy (Legendary).

You can't expect generational talents to start inventing new records or having 4 cup rings or whatever. 1 or 2 rings is suffice.

(*note that Price has the potential to BE not is)
I don't see a point arguing semantics. You seem to be arguing that you see him as being the best goalie in the game in the future and I agree. I think you're right. Let's just leave it at that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
And for the Record:

Sakic, Yzerman, and Jagr are all generational talents in my book.

Gretzky and Lemieux are LEGENDS.
I guess it depends on how you look at it right?

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02-09-2013, 09:58 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I don't see a point arguing semantics. You seem to be arguing that you see him as being the best goalie in the game in the future and I agree. I think you're right. Let's just leave it at that.

I guess it depends on how you look at it right?
I'm not sure if it's that subjective once we accept there's room for generational talents (sakic, yzerman, jagr) and legendary talents (Howe, Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux).

I see it in 3 tiers:

Super Stars (Bret Hull, Peter Forsberg, Alex Ovechkin (few years back))
Generational talents
Legends

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02-09-2013, 10:05 AM
  #88
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Is Jonathan Quick Canadian or American?
I'm not a fan of Quick, even after is mirracle ride last year. Good Goalie but I prefer Price and it's not cause of being homer.

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02-09-2013, 10:24 AM
  #89
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Maybe I should have titled the thread "WHO WILL BACK UP PRICE IN SOCHI?"

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02-09-2013, 10:34 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
The Canucks want to get rid of him because he doesn't play well in big games. This is the same reason that he may very well be left off of Team Canada. In 2010 we won gold despite him.....not because of him.
that last second goal against had me soil my britches

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02-09-2013, 01:29 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
The Canucks want to get rid of him because he doesn't play well in big games. This is the same reason that he may very well be left off of Team Canada. In 2010 we won gold despite him.....not because of him.
he was 5-0, had a .927 save% and let in 9 goals in 5 games. 5 of which were against the russians and states.

he saved our ***** in the final minutes of the slovakia game, but lets wait and see what he does in the playoffs this year...i really dont believe hes going anywhere.

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02-09-2013, 01:36 PM
  #92
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It might depends on Price and Habs performance this year in playoff. The argument against Luongo as of right now is he's not clutch in big games (or rarely). If Price can prove to be a playoff performer this year I say he's the starter next year.

And to be honest I'm more confident with him than Luongo anyway. Fleury complete the trifecta.

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02-09-2013, 01:56 PM
  #93
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No brainer for me. Price is the best Canadian goalie, especially for his puck playing ability. When Luongo plays the puck it's like a grenade and I believe the Canadian team will be all about transition and speed, which Price can help big time.

Also, I'm so confused about all the love Marc Staal is getting in regards to team Canada. He's half the player Subban is and it makes no sense for analysts to be saying he's a lock. So weird.

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02-09-2013, 01:58 PM
  #94
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Luongo is the starter. Price is his backup. Third goalie doesn't matter.

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02-09-2013, 01:59 PM
  #95
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Price will be the starter. Fleury and Ward are the backups.

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02-09-2013, 02:00 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Luongo is the starter. Price is his backup. Third goalie doesn't matter.
If by starter you mean backup, then I agree.

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02-09-2013, 02:24 PM
  #97
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Playing for Team Canada in the Olympics is less pressure than playing in Montreal. Price will be ready.

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02-09-2013, 02:52 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
So some of you have confirmed:

1. Wouldn't trade him for NO other goalie in the NHL
We're on the habs board and Price is overrated by habs fans.

Quote:
2. Looks to be likely starter for team canada
TBH he has no competition. The best goalies in the NHL aren't canadians anymore. They're american, finnish, swedish, etc.

Quote:
3. He's not even in his prime, which suggests we still haven't seen his best
Maybe, maybe not.

Quote:
Just because goalies today are a lot better than they were during Roy's prime doesn't mean that Carey can't be considered a generational talent. It's relative to the era.

How else can a goalie become a generational talent? Or have we come to the point where generational goalies are extinct?




Do we really need to compare the starting goalies of 1993 versus 2013? The ''difference'' argument doesn't work as it's 2 different eras. Generational talent needs to be adjusted as the sport ages and parity among top players increases.
Shouldn't Price win something before being a generational talent ?

Any type of playoffs performance, individual performance warranting a trophy..

To me, a generational talent is consistently and easily head and shoulders above the competition. Brodeur, Roy and Hasek qualify. Quick has shown the potential to be in that category if he can repeat his last season. Price ? Let's talk about it when he does something of note at the NHL level.. anything will do.

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02-09-2013, 02:58 PM
  #99
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Luongo is the favorite but Price surely have a shot! Like others have said, there a lot that can happen until then.


And yeah Jagr is a generational talent

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02-09-2013, 08:13 PM
  #100
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I think so what about everyone else?
simple answer... no

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