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Old
02-09-2013, 01:11 AM
  #501
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
Please tell me when either of these guys accomplish anything at all. This organization from top to bottom deserves to be looked at with a very critical eye on every single move they make. Six years and going with no playoffs, dead last or 2nd to last the last three years.
Schultz, Fistric, Jones, Petrell, Belanger, etc. We've drastically improved in places other than the top 6. Our team was just that bad before. We were lucky the NHL doesn't do relegation to the AHL

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02-09-2013, 01:13 AM
  #502
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Those lines will kill Yakupov's ES production. Belanger is excellent on the draw, a good defensive player and great PKer. He is a blackhole on offense.

Imo, Yakupov has to be playing with one of Gagner or RNH. Harski should be with Paajarvi and Belanger.
Yea, I'll be a little pissed if Yak isn't on the 2nd line tomorrow. I like that Hall is with Gagner and Hemsky but Hartikainen should not be getting ahead of Yak on the depth chart here.

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02-09-2013, 01:21 AM
  #503
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Yea, I'll be a little pissed if Yak isn't on the 2nd line tomorrow. I like that Hall is with Gagner and Hemsky but Hartikainen should not be getting ahead of Yak on the depth chart here.
It's not that he's ahead on the depth chart, it's the fact that he gets to play in his natural position.

Unless you're planning on bumping Ebs/Hemsky down.

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02-09-2013, 01:27 AM
  #504
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Unbelievable. Yak has 5 goals and we sink him with the center and winger with the worst production on this club.

Put a guy with a Brett Hull shot and release on a checking line. Defies description. Who is even capable of passing the puck on this line?


"Yak, you're too good scoring goals, we gotta bury you"


**** is the tank on again?
I lol'd. ****ed up.


Last edited by Philly85: 02-09-2013 at 02:19 AM.
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02-09-2013, 01:39 AM
  #505
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There are some positives of Yak playing with Belanger and Paajarvi. Personally, I'm not a fan of it all. I would rather see Yak with Nuge and Ebs and Hall with Gagner and Hemsky. I don't get why Hartikainnen gets the call to the top line and Yak doesn't when he is leading our team in goals. Plus RNH passing to Yak is something we all want to see. However, Yakupov is now the catalyst on his line. He will have the puck a lot more, is playing his natural position, can focus on offence while having two solid defensive players to cover for him. I guess we'll just see how it goes but I just want this team to win. It's an important game for us and we cant keep losing these close games.

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02-09-2013, 01:45 AM
  #506
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Coach did say the lines might change for tomorrow's game
Belanger is not playing tomorrow so if yak is playing with vv i'm goin be pissed

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02-09-2013, 06:58 AM
  #507
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Originally Posted by stussy View Post
It's not that he's ahead on the depth chart, it's the fact that he gets to play in his natural position.

Unless you're planning on bumping Ebs/Hemsky down.
How on Earth would he score from his "natural position" playing with two guys that are as rare as endangered species in controlling the puck in the offensive zone. Or in Belangers case even being in the offensive zone?

Maybe Yak needs to be the Russian Rocket and blow past entire D's all by himself like its a track meet on ice. Or have a very long range ballistic missile slapshot.

To sustain his confidence, production, potential, he needs to be playing with players that can even remotely complement that potential. Do we really want to send our only present goal scorer into a crashing stall?

For what reason?

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02-09-2013, 07:09 AM
  #508
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
True but they were also bleeding goals against at an alarming rate and even though some of that could be attributed to the D pairings that they were playing with, some of that was also on Gagner, Hemsky and Yakupov who each turn the puck over too much in the neutral zone and a lot of times, got caught up the ice. Also, keep in mind, that they weren't creating nearly as many offensive chances as the top line, they were just cashing in on less opportunties. I couldn't imagine this line holding up over the long haul.

The bottom line is that something had to be done about the forward lines, it simply wasn't working as it was.
Everybody loves to focus on this being a supposed demotion of Yakupov but this is not about Yakupov, it's about improving the team. The team is more important than any individual player. Yakupov will still get plenty of PP opportunities to boost his offense and the 3rd line will likely get almost as many minutes as the top 2 lines since Krueger likes to keep his lines fresh by constantly rolling out different lines.

What Krueger is trying to accomplish with these changes is balanced scoring over 3 lines so he can roll them out equally and to also play Yakupov with more defensive minded players so that he can afford to take chances with the safety net of Belanger and Paajarvi providing solid defensive support.
Also, by adding Hartikainen to RNH and Eberle line (something i've been suggesting for a while), that adds sandpaper to balance out the skill in the top 6.

Think about it.... Instead of depending on 2 lines for offense, Krueger can roll out 3 separate lines with Eberle, Hall then Yakupov coming at the defense in waves.
I applaud Krueger for recognizing the lack of balance, realizing that the lines as they were weren't working and doing something about it early enough in the season.
There are no guarantees that this approach will work but something had to be done.
I'm excited to see if this experiment works.
I can see every angle on this, and I'm a proponent of balanced scoring, but we're expecting a raw rookie in his first 10 games to now carry a line and be its offensive stalwart among two anchors that haven't popped their points cherry yet.

As far as chances, sustainability, etc. The Gagner line is a quickstrike lethal line. They are going to appear to have less chances than the topline but when they get them they are often home free lethal chances or plays where the D is broke down through repeated passing and puck control. When the players on this line get it going on the PP they've had good success. Paired with Schultz they'd have a whole lot better success.

Outside of the top two lines one of the chief problems with offense on this club is simply rarely having the puck in dangerous areas. You see a flash here or there but our bottom six control the puck less then most vet bottom sixes I've seen. We have enough vets in those spots as well where this shouldn't be a problem. which is why I've been heavily critical of Horc and Belanger who's center job it partly is to distribute, and sustain offense, as well as defensive play. They've really only worked one end of the ice to any effect. While largely nullifying any offense for the players they are with.

In the words of the immortal Petr Klima Yak will "need a very long stick to score from the bench" or own zone, or with no puck or cycle support whatsoever.

However you slice this we're taking our top scorer an burying him in bottom six rotation. Which could deepsix his confidence. We already have several forwards on this club snakebit.

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02-09-2013, 07:20 AM
  #509
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
True but they were also bleeding goals against at an alarming rate and even though some of that could be attributed to the D pairings that they were playing with, some of that was also on Gagner, Hemsky and Yakupov who each turn the puck over too much in the neutral zone and a lot of times, got caught up the ice. Also, keep in mind, that they weren't creating nearly as many offensive chances as the top line, they were just cashing in on less opportunties. I couldn't imagine this line holding up over the long haul.

The bottom line is that something had to be done about the forward lines, it simply wasn't working as it was.
Everybody loves to focus on this being a supposed demotion of Yakupov but this is not about Yakupov, it's about improving the team. The team is more important than any individual player. Yakupov will still get plenty of PP opportunities to boost his offense and the 3rd line will likely get almost as many minutes as the top 2 lines since Krueger likes to keep his lines fresh by constantly rolling out different lines.

What Krueger is trying to accomplish with these changes is balanced scoring over 3 lines so he can roll them out equally and to also play Yakupov with more defensive minded players so that he can afford to take chances with the safety net of Belanger and Paajarvi providing solid defensive support.
Also, by adding Hartikainen to RNH and Eberle line (something i've been suggesting for a while), that adds sandpaper to balance out the skill in the top 6.

Think about it.... Instead of depending on 2 lines for offense, Krueger can roll out 3 separate lines with Eberle, Hall then Yakupov coming at the defense in waves.
I applaud Krueger for recognizing the lack of balance, realizing that the lines as they were weren't working and doing something about it early enough in the season.
There are no guarantees that this approach will work but something had to be done.
I'm excited to see if this experiment works.
Not over the last 6 games (other than Yakupov, a rookie). Here are their lines over the last six according to NHL.com

N. Yakupov -3, 2 Gva, 0 Tka, 3 G, 3 A, 6 P
A. Hemsky -1, 2 Gva, 3 Tka, 3 G, 2 A, 5 P
S. Gagner 0, 3 Gva, 1 Tka, 1 G, 6 A, 7 P
T. Hall 0, 4 Gva, 7 Tka, 1 G, 4 A, 5 P
J. Eberle -2, 2 Gva, 4 Tka, 1 G, 1 A, 2 P
Nugent-Hopkins -1, 5 Gva, 2 Tka, 0 G, 2 A, 2 P

The worst culprit in the give away/Take away ratio is Hopkins at -3. Yakupov and Gagner follow at -2. Hemsky +1, Eberle +2 and Hall +3.

+/- is Yakupov worst at -3 followed by Eberle at -2. Everyone else is 0 or -1.

Hopkins and Eberle have both contributed a whopping 2 points over those 6 games (5 for Hopkins due to injury). All the others are around 1 PPG over that same period.


Last edited by Doppler Drift: 02-09-2013 at 08:07 AM.
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02-09-2013, 07:53 AM
  #510
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
How on Earth would he score from his "natural position" playing with two guys that are as rare as endangered species in controlling the puck in the offensive zone. Or in Belangers case even being in the offensive zone?

Maybe Yak needs to be the Russian Rocket and blow past entire D's all by himself like its a track meet on ice. Or have a very long range ballistic missile slapshot.

To sustain his confidence, production, potential, he needs to be playing with players that can even remotely complement that potential. Do we really want to send our only present goal scorer into a crashing stall?

For what reason?
You're being overdramatic. Paajarvi has been pretty good at gaining the zone the last couple of games and also generated some offense and even some sustained pressure though it usually ends up with Hartikainen getting stuck behind the net and trying the same move every time to carry the puck in front. That line has also been pretty ok on the forecheck.
He can't score to save his life but he can create offense.

You make it sound like the Hartikainen/Paajarvi line hasn't visited the o-zone at all which just isn't true.

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02-09-2013, 08:15 AM
  #511
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You're being overdramatic. Paajarvi has been pretty good at gaining the zone the last couple of games and also generated some offense and even some sustained pressure though it usually ends up with Hartikainen getting stuck behind the net and trying the same move every time to carry the puck in front. That line has also been pretty ok on the forecheck.
He can't score to save his life but he can create offense.

You make it sound like the Hartikainen/Paajarvi line hasn't visited the o-zone at all which just isn't true.
Simple question. What production has Paajarvi accomplished or contributed to this year or last?

One can talk about the rare offensive forays all one wants. MPS is a poor offensive player and cycle player. At best he's somebody that can rush the puck with speed and bring it to the net the odd times he's so inclined.

Funny the way you mention Harti as he's the player that can sustain the puck in dangerous areas. I like the looks of him playing with talent more than Paajarvi right now who handles the puck like its a live grenade.

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02-09-2013, 08:52 AM
  #512
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Simple question. What production has Paajarvi accomplished or contributed to this year or last?

One can talk about the rare offensive forays all one wants. MPS is a poor offensive player and cycle player. At best he's somebody that can rush the puck with speed and bring it to the net the odd times he's so inclined.

Funny the way you mention Harti as he's the player that can sustain the puck in dangerous areas. I like the looks of him playing with talent more than Paajarvi right now who handles the puck like its a live grenade.
I never claimed his production was great, it clearly isn't. But I don't agree that MPS is a totally lost cause as far as offense goes. I never thought of him as a highly skilled offensive player, but imo he does have more in him then he's been getting on the scoresheet for the last two seasons.

His production was pretty good for a rookie his first season, for a swedish rookie it was almost exceptional, they usually need a couple of years to start putting up points, the Sedins had similar production for their first three seasons. Now you could claim this was all due to playing with Omark but I doubt you of all people would agree with that... Then he fell into a black whole his second year and hasn't been able to get out, but I'm not prepared to give up on him just yet, I feel there's stille untapped potential.

I see a player with some skill and loads of speed who lacks confidence and is overthinking his game, but for the last couple of games has started to improve and gain back some sort of belief in himself. You see a hopeless case offensively. Which is fair enough and I think we might have to agree to disagree.

In 2-3 years I guess we'll see who's right. In the meantime I doubt he'll kill Yakupovs career by playing on the same line for a few games.

Edit: And btw I don't agree he's too bad on the cycle either...

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02-09-2013, 09:05 AM
  #513
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I never claimed his production was great, it clearly isn't. But I don't agree that MPS is a totally lost cause as far as offense goes. I never thought of him as a highly skilled offensive player, but imo he does have more in him then he's been getting on the scoresheet for the last two seasons.

His production was pretty good for a rookie his first season, for a swedish rookie it was almost exceptional, they usually need a couple of years to start putting up points, the Sedins had similar production for their first three seasons. Now you could claim this was all due to playing with Omark but I doubt you of all people would agree with that... Then he fell into a black whole his second year and hasn't been able to get out, but I'm not prepared to give up on him just yet, I feel there's stille untapped potential.

I see a player with some skill and loads of speed who lacks confidence and is overthinking his game, but for the last couple of games has started to improve and gain back some sort of belief in himself. You see a hopeless case offensively. Which is fair enough and I think we might have to agree to disagree.

In 2-3 years I guess we'll see who's right. In the meantime I doubt he'll kill Yakupovs career by playing on the same line for a few games.

Edit: And btw I don't agree he's too bad on the cycle either...
Thanks for the discussion and enjoyed. Indeed we'll see.

But want a sobering and out there stat? (not saying its an argument or demonstrative, but interesting in itself)

Darcy Hordichuk over the last 2 seasons has more pts/60mins production than MPS.

The sad but true twilight zone stat of the day.

I'll be here all week.

MPS is BAD on the cycle. Believe it.

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02-09-2013, 09:09 AM
  #514
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It may work a bit to Yak's benefit for him to be the center piece of his line though.

Gagner and Hemsky really don't know what they're doing with Yakupov, he kinda just rides along with them.

A guy like MPS will be more apt to just give Yakupov the puck and get the hell outta the way, which can often simply be the right play to make.

Yakupov has the best shot on the team, lets use it a little more, shall we?

Not to say that this particular line combo is great (Belanger?). I think Harti and Yak should be interchangeable on that first line with RNH and Ebs.


Last edited by Soundwave: 02-09-2013 at 09:16 AM.
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02-09-2013, 08:09 PM
  #515
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Simple question. What production has Paajarvi accomplished or contributed to this year or last?

One can talk about the rare offensive forays all one wants. MPS is a poor offensive player and cycle player. At best he's somebody that can rush the puck with speed and bring it to the net the odd times he's so inclined.

Funny the way you mention Harti as he's the player that can sustain the puck in dangerous areas. I like the looks of him playing with talent more than Paajarvi right now who handles the puck like its a live grenade.
MPS is an offensive catalyst, in other words he is the leader in developing the overall offensive thrust of the line on the ice, this doesnt mean he is scoring points at a torrid pace it means he is consistantly creating opportunitys for others to score, wether they score or not is testament to the system and their skillsets not to MPSs ability to catalyse the offense from within the system. MPS and Gagner both learned to be catalysts the same way and at about the same times, Sam first then MPS. MPS is a 2 way defensive specialist. There is no way we will keep MPS off the top 2 lines , they need his speed and size and defensive awareness not his pure offense there was never a better fit, as he gains experience MPS will develop the onetimer like Kurri did, just watch for it because it allows them to get back defensively if they use that shot selection. It also lets them enter the o-zone with possesion and make themselves the recipient of a give and go for the onetimer and maintain that defensive stance.

Hartikainen is an energy player cut and dried, he can really control the puck along the boards and he is very very active with his body movements trying to draw penaltys he looks like Laraque along the boards when he has possesion, but that is an energy players move as is his netfront presence and middle lane rush, and he doesnt fight.
I like Hartikainen but he is nowhere near MPSs league yet and he is being slotted into spots better suited to MPS actually watching them play together is awsome as their skillsets work well together and they are like two bulls in a china shop add Pettrell and they are a force to be reckoned with. This is a coaching decision based on non-system parameters, this is a coaches flavor choice. The best place for Harti is on the 3rd line with step up opportunity but when Jones returns then its back to the 4th line as an energy guy. Harti doesnt catalyse offense he trys to capitalise and there is a difference which is why his energy role is important , it just isnt important enough to crack out top 6, there are way better energy guys all over the NHL that are proven already that wouldnt crack our top 6.


We dont want MPS to cycle the puck, we want him to use his size and speed to gain zone entrys and then we want thim to use that elite speed to backcheck into defensive position, we want |Hartikainen to cycle the puck and dominate the middle and the netfront you have it backwards, MPS creates offense and Harti "recieves it".

This is exactly why we need MPS on the 2nd line with Gagner and Yakupov because with MPS there both Sam and Nail become viable shooting options for 60 mins and this doubles their goal production because Gagner is also an elite shooter and scorer. This dynamic happens because MPS can gain the o-zone differently than Hemmer and not need to posses the puck so much to get the job done. Hemmer will outscore MPS in goals handsdown but in Hemmers place MPS would generate more goals for the 2nd line from his linemates than Hemmer could. And Hemsky would provide the exact same goal production from the 3rd lne as the 2nd because of his possesion game. we dont want MPS to score from the 2nd line we want him catalysing offense so Sammy can shoot to and we want him being defensively aware and responsible so he can always be the first forward back. Hartikainen cannot provide all of these tangible dynamics and still maximise his personal skillset. Put him with Yak and Smyth see below.


Ryan smyth seems to still be a puck magnet when he is on the ice, it seems to me he might be a good setup man for Yakupov as Ryan has elite puck pursuit and often breaks it loose and gains possesion at weird times which is a perfect fit for a guy like Yakupov who can release the puck instantly from anywhere. They might have some weird majic who knows. Might be something to try out while we are suffering from the injury bug. One thing is for sure and that is that when we finally knock this offensive monkey off of our backs we are going to go supernove on some poor unsuspecting opponent. We just need to find the trigger and hold it down.

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02-09-2013, 08:14 PM
  #516
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It may work a bit to Yak's benefit for him to be the center piece of his line though.

Gagner and Hemsky really don't know what they're doing with Yakupov, he kinda just rides along with them.

A guy like MPS will be more apt to just give Yakupov the puck and get the hell outta the way, which can often simply be the right play to make.

Yakupov has the best shot on the team, lets use it a little more, shall we?

Not to say that this particular line combo is great (Belanger?). I think Harti and Yak should be interchangeable on that first line with RNH and Ebs.


I agree that MPS is a great 2nd line fit with Yakupov for the same reasons, we all know what harti and hall bring to the table so its always going to be a coaches tactical decision wether to add raw physicality from Harti and sacrifice speed from Hall. I also think Yakupov himself will already bring physicality to our 1st line in less of a pure rushing way than Hall does, maybe we need to switch hall and Yakupov.

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