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Old
02-09-2013, 05:21 AM
  #726
El_Loco_Avs
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Originally Posted by STEVE RANDESKOGAH View Post
I would go so far as to say it's one of the 10 best threads on the planet.
But does it deserve 5 million replies?

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02-09-2013, 07:56 AM
  #727
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But does it deserve 5 million replies?
It deserves 7 million replies...over two years.

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02-09-2013, 08:15 AM
  #728
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I bet things have gotten so bad between the sides, that even if they paid ROR 5 mil a year he'd bolt to another team the minute he had a chance to.
I honestly think this entire thing started with ROR deciding that his future wasn't with the Avs. Whether that's because he didn't want to be stuck behind Stastny and Duchene or something else he's observed about the organization (this wouldn't surprise me since most of us observe it), the way it's been handled feels like a guy trying to get out.

It sucks. He should have been a key part of the future core of this team. I'm not absolving ROR of all blame in this, but this whole thing indicates to me an organization that doesn't have it's priorities straight. The most important part of building a winning hockey team is putting talented players in the right positions. When you have that the priority has to be keeping those players and building around them. The Avs are an organization that holds other priorities higher. And the Avs won't be a an organization that has it's priorities straight until there is a makeover at the top.

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02-09-2013, 08:48 AM
  #729
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An article about Radar:

http://jibblescribbits.com/2013-arti...o-the-avs.html

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02-09-2013, 09:37 AM
  #730
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Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
This x100

I feel very confident in saying that if Stastny got a chance to play without Sacco coaching and in a different system that we'd see the old Stastny back.

And Old Stastny is a better player then Oreilly.
Agreed, any Avalanche player that has recently been traded away from Joe Sacco has looked much better (except for Stewart so far). Staz has been my favorite player on this team since Sakic retired, so I'm biased. But in all honestly, do we REALLY want to see Stastny get 70-80 pts elsewhere, on more of a well-coached team? I think not.

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02-09-2013, 10:16 AM
  #731
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Agreed, any Avalanche player that has recently been traded away from Joe Sacco has looked much better (except for Stewart so far). Staz has been my favorite player on this team since Sakic retired, so I'm biased. But in all honestly, do we REALLY want to see Stastny get 70-80 pts elsewhere, on more of a well-coached team? I think not.
If I had to pick 2 players, out of Dutchy, ROR, and Stastny I pick Dutch and ROR everytime. We can only keep 2 of them long term if we want to build a decent team. Stastny will be walking away at the end of this current contract. That is my guess. I don't know what happened to Paul but he has been a shell of his former self for too long. I don't doubt that with a new coach he would flourish, but Sacco is signed for as long as Stastny is. I don't see the Avs firing him, and paying him not to coach. Stastny is 27 years old, and is not a leader. I don't think there is room for him on a rebuild team that won't even be close to contending for 3 more years.


Last edited by bohlmeister: 02-09-2013 at 10:22 AM.
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02-09-2013, 10:42 AM
  #732
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You guys can joke all you want. I don't mind alienating myself from the rest of the fan bases mentality. ROR is NOT a player that will be replaced. He is getting praise from almost every hockey analyst for a reason. He is an extremely smart hockey player, at the NHL level, at 22 years of age. You can draft for 15 years and never get a player like him. 5 Mill a year, long term, is not a risk on a player like him. You can't teach hockey IQ, and you can't teach work ethic. Those are his 2 best attributes. He put up all those points last season despite starting in the defensive zone, and playing against the NHL's best players. With how good Duchene is playing this season, against top competition, imagine him playing against every teams 2nd line. The hard stance taken by management is absolutely idiotic. If they let the possibility of having Duchene and RoR as your top 2 centers for the next 10 years pass then this rebuild has been a sham. They are clearly only doing it to save money.

The obvious move is to sign ROR, and trade Stastny. If they do the opposite they are imbeciles and driving this franchise into the ditch.
I'd be ok with trading Stastny over O'Reilly if they were both on the team, but they're not. Stastny isn't the one refusing to come back until he gets the long term deal he wants, and $5M is absolutely a risk for a player like him. How are you so confident that his point totals will grow or stay the same? He'll be behind two other centers, and could have the guy he had his best chemsitry with in Landeskog potentially sticking with Duchene for years to come. If his point totals dip to around 35 a year, that guy, no matter how many intangibles he brings to the table, and how he's the prototypical winner like Drury was, isn't worth anywhere near $5M a year.

It's come to the point of arrogance for him to expect the Avalanche to think that won't happen just on faith, instead of taking a short deal and proving it. How does getting your feelings hurt in negotiations make it a smart idea to hold out for a long term deal like this? That's the dumbest thought process I've ever heard. What is that going to accomplish other than keeping you out, hurting the team, and tarnishing your image. It's a lose lose. Either sign a short term deal, or ask for a trade. Publicly if need be.

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02-09-2013, 11:08 AM
  #733
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He is up to 250 pounds because of him being couch bound and developing an addiction to butter tarts, sources from the O'Reilly camp says.

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02-09-2013, 11:18 AM
  #734
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He is up to 250 pounds because of him being couch bound and developing an addiction to butter tarts, sources from the O'Reilly camp says.
Ubereilly

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Old
02-09-2013, 11:34 AM
  #735
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Latest blog from Dater on the O'Reilly situation.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2013...ign-him/12503/

Maybe it's just me, but I still feel that whatever Duchene is making shouldn't really come into play with O'Reilly, because it's quite obvious that Duchene did take a discount on this contract.

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Old
02-09-2013, 11:40 AM
  #736
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Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
Latest blog from Dater on the O'Reilly situation.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2013...ign-him/12503/

Maybe it's just me, but I still feel that whatever Duchene is making shouldn't really come into play with O'Reilly, because it's quite obvious that Duchene did take a discount on this contract.
O'Reilly's agents are using other comparables to argue that he should make $5M/year, so why can't Avs use Duchene as a comparable to argue that he should take a 2 year bridge deal for $7M?

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02-09-2013, 11:42 AM
  #737
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O'Reilly's agents are using other comparables to argue that he should make $5M/year, so why can't Avs use Duchene as a comparable to argue that he should take a 2 year bridge deal for $7M?
That's a fair point.

On the flip side, like I said, Duchene himself, when compared to others who signed contracts coming off of their ELC's, did take less than he could have gotten. That's not O'Reilly's fault.

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02-09-2013, 11:48 AM
  #738
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Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
Latest blog from Dater on the O'Reilly situation.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2013...ign-him/12503/
People around O'Reilly are blaming Duchene for taking a short term bridge deal? I guess Hejduk's a dick too for taking all those one year hometown discount deals. And MDZ, and Kulikov are jerks for taking short term deals as 21 year old RFA's. Oh and that's the reason PK is an assclown, because he took a short term cheap deal. This whole time I thought it was something else.

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02-09-2013, 11:50 AM
  #739
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Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
That's a fair point.

On the flip side, like I said, Duchene himself, when compared to others who signed contracts coming off of their ELC's, did take less than he could have gotten. That's not O'Reilly's fault.
That's how it works. The teams tries to use team friendly contracts as comparables. The player tries to use player friendly contracts as comparables.

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02-09-2013, 11:51 AM
  #740
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The more this goes on, the more likely this ends in a trade. If the Avs don't even want to play him in 6 games, and we are already having a bad season, I think that if he plays this season it won't be for the Avs. I'm not going to be happy about losing ROR, I just hope we can get a good return.

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02-09-2013, 11:51 AM
  #741
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
People around O'Reilly are blaming Duchene for taking a short term bridge deal? I guess Hejduk's a dick too for taking all those one year hometown discount deals. And MDZ, and Kulikov are jerks for taking short term deals as 21 year old RFA's. Oh and that's the reason PK is an assclown, because he took a short term cheap deal. This whole time I thought it was something else.
I'm not saying that he's worth 5 million a year.

But let's look at these so-called "fair offers" that the Avs game him.

They laid out two options, and only two options. The same deal that Duchene signed or a 5 year, 17 million dollar offer, that buys one of Ryan's UFA years, and that offer was an AAV of 3.4 million. To me, that is an insult. If you're going to buy a UFA year, that offer should have been an AAV of 4-4.5m.

And the Avs' ONLY reason for not wanting to budge on the 2yr 7m offer is because Ryan would then be paid more than Duchene.

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02-09-2013, 11:55 AM
  #742
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Good read on Jean Beliveau's hold-out:

http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2013/0...s-the-holdout/

Nice to see this thread bucked the echo-chamber trend the last couple of pages.

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Old
02-09-2013, 11:56 AM
  #743
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Every report from "the O'Reilly camp" make him look really bad. Hope for his sake it's just journalists speculating because if he is this easily offended and unreasonable, I got him completely wrong.

Just my 2c.

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02-09-2013, 11:58 AM
  #744
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Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
I'm not saying that he's worth 5 million a year.

But let's look at these so-called "fair offers" that the Avs game him.

They laid out two options, and only two options. The same deal that Duchene signed or a 5 year, 17 million dollar offer, that buys one of Ryan's UFA years, and that offer was an AAV of 3.4 million. To me, that is an insult. If you're going to buy a UFA year, that offer should have been an AAV of 4-4.5m.

And the Avs' ONLY reason for not wanting to budge on the 2yr 7m offer is because Ryan would then be paid more than Duchene.
Honestly, Duchene deserves to be paid more than ROR. He scores more points, and has high end #1C potential. ROR won't score as many points and will never be a true #1C. I'm not opposed to 'long term' deal for ROR going up to 4.5m, but beyond that you are starting to expect him to be a #1C (when you factoring in you are buying out his cheap RFA years at an overpayment).

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02-09-2013, 12:00 PM
  #745
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Every report from "the O'Reilly camp" make him look really bad. Hope for his sake it's just journalists speculating because if he is this easily offended and unreasonable, I got him completely wrong.

Just my 2c.
Pretty sure negotiations start with a wildly optimistic and/or unrealistic number in your favor. The other side counters. Time passes, offers are exchanged, you meet somewhere in the middle.

Only the Avs don't do that. Their offer -- while fair, nonetheless being on the low end of fair -- is apparently their final offer. They do not negotiate.

When word gets out that O'Reilly rejected a $4M contract, then I'd start to wonder what he's after. Nonetheless, I can't blame the guy for having this experience put a sour taste in his mouth. It sure has put one in mine.

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02-09-2013, 12:04 PM
  #746
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Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
I'm not saying that he's worth 5 million a year.

But let's look at these so-called "fair offers" that the Avs game him.

They laid out two options, and only two options. The same deal that Duchene signed or a 5 year, 17 million dollar offer, that buys one of Ryan's UFA years, and that offer was an AAV of 3.4 million. To me, that is an insult. If you're going to buy a UFA year, that offer should have been an AAV of 4-4.5m.

And the Avs' ONLY reason for not wanting to budge on the 2yr 7m offer is because Ryan would then be paid more than Duchene.
The five year deal is a joke. He'd be stupid to sign that. The Avs should have put more options on the table for three or four or six year deals. That's where they're blowing it and being stubborn.

That said, Ryan is a 21 year old RFA. You're not supposed to put yourself on a pedestal like this, and demand the team gives you what you want. You sign a bridge deal like Duchene if you can't agree to terms on a long contract, and you play for the chance at getting a big contract next time. That's what hundreds and hundreds of players have done over the years, no matter how butt hurt they were in negotiations.

O'Reilly should not see $3.5M for two years as a slap in the face what so ever.

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02-09-2013, 12:08 PM
  #747
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Pretty sure negotiations start with a wildly optimistic and/or unrealistic number in your favor. The other side counters. Time passes, offers are exchanged, you meet somewhere in the middle.

Only the Avs don't do that. Their offer -- while fair, nonetheless being on the low end of fair -- is apparently their final offer. They do not negotiate.

When word gets out that O'Reilly rejected a $4M contract, then I'd start to wonder what he's after. Nonetheless, I can't blame the guy for having this experience put a sour taste in his mouth. It sure has put one in mine.
It's obvious that Avs don't want to sign O'Reilly to a five year deal. That's why their five year offer is at the lower end of what is reasonable. My guess is that they would have preferred not to offer any long term deal at all.

But the two year offer is very generous. I can't think of a single two year bridge deal that any player in the league has gotten has been bigger. It's on the high end of being fair.

The solution to this mess has been staring O'Reilly in the face the whole time. Take the two year deal, make a lot of money and then earn a longer contract. But it seems he is willing to do pretty much everything except the right thing here.

I think tabling an offer and not moving from it is a perfectly legitimate negotiation tactic if the offer is fair. And the two year offer from Avs is that. There is no reason to move from that. Even more so after the Subban, del Zotto and Kulikov signings showed the market value bridge deals given to highly touted RFAs.


Last edited by Freudian: 02-09-2013 at 12:14 PM.
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02-09-2013, 12:20 PM
  #748
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Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
Latest blog from Dater on the O'Reilly situation.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2013...ign-him/12503/

Maybe it's just me, but I still feel that whatever Duchene is making shouldn't really come into play with O'Reilly, because it's quite obvious that Duchene did take a discount on this contract.
If there's any truth to Dater's assertion that "people around O'Reilly" are pissed about Duchene's deal, I hope O'Reilly isn't listening to those idiots. Duchene came into this season wanting to prove that 2011-12 was an aberration and signed a deal that will allow him to do just that AND get paid handsomely the next tiime he's up for a contract.

I actually agree now that the "bridge" deal is fair. I just don't understand why the Avs have absolutely no flexibility on this.

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02-09-2013, 12:29 PM
  #749
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
If there's any truth to Dater's assertion that "people around O'Reilly" are pissed about Duchene's deal, I hope O'Reilly isn't listening to those idiots. Duchene came into this season wanting to prove that 2011-12 was an aberration and signed a deal that will allow him to do just that AND get paid handsomely the next tiime he's up for a contract.
It amazes me that people take anything Dater says seriously. It's quite clear at this point that he reads HFBoards -- hell, he used to post here before realizing that he was still considered a pariah -- and spins opinions that he reads here as "things he's hearing around the league."

Quote:
I actually agree now that the "bridge" deal is fair. I just don't understand why the Avs have absolutely no flexibility on this.
Yeah, same here. It is fair. But like I alluded to earlier, I think its the Avs' stubborn refusal to negotiate whatsoever that has turned O'Reilly off. How do you go from trying to negotiate for more, only to be repeatedly told no, and then have to sign their initial contract with your tail tucked between your legs? For a proud guy like O'Reilly? It's easy to see how that would piss him off. I really don't see O'Reilly refusing to play for $3.5M under normal circumstances -- it's the "take it or rot" stance.

I think back to Anderson's comments post-Colorado trade about wanting to play for an organization that treats its players with respect and communicates with them. I know Andy is an unpopular guy around here, but in light of his situation, Mueller, Flash, Lappy, Bruno, and now O'Reilly? I guess for some it's easier to shoot the messenger.

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02-09-2013, 12:30 PM
  #750
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O'Reilly should be offered the same contact as Duchene, and he should accept that contact. Let's not forget he's only 21, and has only had one really good year. If he doesn't want to sign the same contact as Duchene then I fully support the Avs in their holdout or trade if it comes to that.

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