HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Colorado Avalanche
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Райан О'Рейли: In Soviet Ontario Offer Sheets Sign You; Rayan's 3rd Thread

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-09-2013, 01:39 PM
  #751
Av-merican
@Av_merican
 
Av-merican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Frozen Wasteland
Country: Scotland
Posts: 11,496
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CB Joe View Post
O'Reilly should be offered the same contact as Duchene, and he should accept that contact. Let's not forget he's only 21, and has only had one really good year. If he doesn't want to sign the same contact as Duchene then I fully support the Avs in their holdout or trade if it comes to that.
This is where I completely disagree with most posters on here. No, O'Reilly has not had only "one good season." He's been a consistently good defensive player since coming into the league. Last year was a breakout year, but it's not like he was a mediocre or crap player before that. He just became a force at both ends of the ice. Like it or not, Duchene had a setback last season, and he acknowledged as much. O'Reilly has taken steps forward every year he's been in the league.

While I think the bridge offer is fair, I think it's silly to say that Duchene and O'Reilly have been relatively equal in their development thus far. That's why I don't think comparing the two contract-wise makes any sense. The only reason I think the bridge deal is fair is because it comes with the implied promise that if he proves to be as dominant a two-way player as we think he could be, he'll be paid handsomely upon the conclusion of that contract.

Av-merican is offline  
Old
02-09-2013, 01:51 PM
  #752
Freudian
No Guenin, No cry
 
Freudian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Sweden
Posts: 30,984
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
This is where I completely disagree with most posters on here. No, O'Reilly has not had only "one good season." He's been a consistently good defensive player since coming into the league. Last year was a breakout year, but it's not like he was a mediocre or crap player before that. He just became a force at both ends of the ice. Like it or not, Duchene had a setback last season, and he acknowledged as much. O'Reilly has taken steps forward every year he's been in the league.

While I think the bridge offer is fair, I think it's silly to say that Duchene and O'Reilly have been relatively equal in their development thus far. That's why I don't think comparing the two contract-wise makes any sense. The only reason I think the bridge deal is fair is because it comes with the implied promise that if he proves to be as dominant a two-way player as we think he could be, he'll be paid handsomely upon the conclusion of that contract.
Duchene has a significantly higher offensive ceiling than O'Reilly has. Work effort and compete level can only take you you that far. Most likely O'Reilly will never hit the 67 points Duchene did as a 19 year old. Perhaps if he is paired with elite wingers.

Even if it may offend the O'Reilly camp, there are question marks about what kind of consistent offense he can provide at the NHL level. Wanting to see more of what he can do before committing to a long term deal is a reasonable stance.

Freudian is online now  
Old
02-09-2013, 02:11 PM
  #753
Av-merican
@Av_merican
 
Av-merican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Frozen Wasteland
Country: Scotland
Posts: 11,496
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Duchene has a significantly higher offensive ceiling than O'Reilly has. Work effort and compete level can only take you you that far. Most likely O'Reilly will never hit the 67 points Duchene did as a 19 year old. Perhaps if he is paired with elite wingers.

Even if it may offend the O'Reilly camp, there are question marks about what kind of consistent offense he can provide at the NHL level. Wanting to see more of what he can do before committing to a long term deal is a reasonable stance.
I can understand that but as others have said, there's nothing wrong with negotiating a slightly higher price. The fact that the Avs are being so obstinate to the detriment of the team at present is just ridiculous.

Av-merican is offline  
Old
02-09-2013, 02:13 PM
  #754
volaju
Registered User
 
volaju's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 953
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Even if it may offend the O'Reilly camp, there are question marks about what kind of consistent offense he can provide at the NHL level. Wanting to see more of what he can do before committing to a long term deal is a reasonable stance.
Regardless, I don't think a deal with O'Reilly gets done unless the Avs move off that number. Offer $250k more -- something for O'Reilly to hang his hat on so he doesn't look like a complete fool for holding out, only to sign the same contract being offered all along. It is obvious that this situation will not be resolved positively if the Avs don't give a little.

For those of you saying O'Reilly has no leverage, you couldn't be more wrong. He has no obligation to sign a contract. He can play in the KHL, and his value to the Avs will only diminish. He's not going to sign that initial contract, and each day they don't sign him, they're less likely to get a good return on him. Are the Avs seriously so vindictive that they'll let one of their most promising prospects wither in the KHL, and not even get anything in return for it? His leverage is plenty: he can use the Avs' hard-headedness against them. And he'll make them look extremely dumb in the process.

You've made your point, Sherman. Play hardball with the Avs and you'll lose. Great. Now what's your exit strategy? Will you shoot yourself in the foot and hurt the rebuild just to make a point, or will you make a small peace offering so everyone can move on?

This situation is bringing some seriously bad press to this organization. Gotta imagine this will have ramifications on this team down the line, with their own players and other FAs. Can't imagine this battle was worth it in the long run. Good going, Avs.

volaju is offline  
Old
02-09-2013, 02:16 PM
  #755
CB Joe
Registered User
 
CB Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
This is where I completely disagree with most posters on here. No, O'Reilly has not had only "one good season." He's been a consistently good defensive player since coming into the league. Last year was a breakout year, but it's not like he was a mediocre or crap player before that. He just became a force at both ends of the ice. Like it or not, Duchene had a setback last season, and he acknowledged as much. O'Reilly has taken steps forward every year he's been in the league.

While I think the bridge offer is fair, I think it's silly to say that Duchene and O'Reilly have been relatively equal in their development thus far. That's why I don't think comparing the two contract-wise makes any sense. The only reason I think the bridge deal is fair is because it comes with the implied promise that if he proves to be as dominant a two-way player as we think he could be, he'll be paid handsomely upon the conclusion of that contract.
O'Reilly's first two years were good, but not $3.5m/y good. What type of value would you put on the first two years alone? No where near that much. Almost all of O'Reilly's value is based on last years performance. Lets not forget that O'Reilly got the best winger on the team on his line. How much of O'Reilly success has come from Landeskog?

O'Reilly and Duchene aren't the best comparables, but prior to this season Duchene still managed to produce 43 more points in 17 less games. With all things being equal that translates to 55 more points in equal games. Even with Duchene's slump he's still producing almost 20 more points a season than O'Reilly. That is a significant amount when it comes to negotiating salary. To think that O'Reilly deserves more than Duchene over the same period of time is madness. You can say O'Reilly should be paid for his defensive game and that's true, but the market pays more for offensive skill in the NHL.

CB Joe is offline  
Old
02-09-2013, 02:19 PM
  #756
Freudian
No Guenin, No cry
 
Freudian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Sweden
Posts: 30,984
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by volaju View Post
Regardless, I don't think a deal with O'Reilly gets done unless the Avs move off that number. Offer $250k more -- something for O'Reilly to hang his hat on so he doesn't look like a complete fool for holding out, only to sign the same contract being offered all along. It is obvious that this situation will not be resolved positively if the Avs don't give a little.

For those of you saying O'Reilly has no leverage, you couldn't be more wrong. He has no obligation to sign a contract. He can play in the KHL, and his value to the Avs will only diminish. He's not going to sign that initial contract, and each day they don't sign him, they're less likely to get a good return on him. Are the Avs seriously so vindictive that they'll let one of their most promising prospects wither in the KHL, and not even get anything in return for it? His leverage is plenty: he can use the Avs' hard-headedness against them. And he'll make them look extremely dumb in the process.

You've made your point, Sherman. Play hardball with the Avs and you'll lose. Great. Now what's your exit strategy? Will you shoot yourself in the foot and hurt the rebuild just to make a point, or will you make a small peace offering so everyone can move on?

This situation is bringing some seriously bad press to this organization. Gotta imagine this will have ramifications on this team down the line, with their own players and other FAs. Can't imagine this battle was worth it in the long run. Good going, Avs.
I agree. He seems to be very Irish and you have to give him a 'win' here so he can save face. Hopefully Avs realize this.

Freudian is online now  
Old
02-09-2013, 02:22 PM
  #757
Av-merican
@Av_merican
 
Av-merican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Frozen Wasteland
Country: Scotland
Posts: 11,496
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CB Joe View Post
O'Reilly's first two years were good, but not $3.5m/y good. What type of value would you put on the first two years alone? No where near that much. Almost all of O'Reilly's value is based on last years performance. Lets not forget that O'Reilly got the best winger on the team on his line. How much of O'Reilly success has come from Landeskog?

O'Reilly and Duchene aren't the best comparables, but prior to this season Duchene still managed to produce 43 more points in 17 less games. With all things being equal that translates to 55 more points in equal games. Even with Duchene's slump he's still producing almost 20 more points a season than O'Reilly. That is a significant amount when it comes to negotiating salary. To think that O'Reilly deserves more than Duchene over the same period of time is madness. You can say O'Reilly should be paid for his defensive game and that's true, but the market pays more for offensive skill in the NHL.
I really hope you're not implying O'Reilly was a passenger on Landeskog's line. Talented or not, Landeskog was a rookie last year. Let's not give him too much credit. The two worked amazingly well together. And yes, Duchene was matched with crap linemates, suffered injuries, etc. Nevertheless, he had a bad year and took the "prove it" contract. Not saying O'Reilly absolutely SHOULDN'T take that deal, but to ask for a little more is not "madness." Like it or not, O'Reilly has been the more consistent and reliable player since both were drafted.

You can say he wasn't "$3.5 million good" but that's just an arbitrary number.

Av-merican is offline  
Old
02-09-2013, 02:24 PM
  #758
Hennessy
Blank Space
 
Hennessy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Östersund, Sweden
Country: United States
Posts: 6,987
vCash: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
I agree. He seems to be very Irish and you have to give him a 'win' here so he can save face. Hopefully Avs realize this.
Or just send him a case of whiskey.

Hennessy is offline  
Old
02-09-2013, 02:24 PM
  #759
Mant*
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,911
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyFan100 View Post
Agreed, any Avalanche player that has recently been traded away from Joe Sacco has looked much better (except for Stewart so far). Staz has been my favorite player on this team since Sakic retired, so I'm biased. But in all honestly, do we REALLY want to see Stastny get 70-80 pts elsewhere, on more of a well-coached team? I think not.
Players traded away from one of the worst teams in the league to better teams with much better linemates see improvement?

Imagine that.

Besides, almost every time a mediocre player gets traded, they excel on their new team for a while... then go back to being mediocre.

Mant* is offline  
Old
02-09-2013, 02:36 PM
  #760
CB Joe
Registered User
 
CB Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
I really hope you're not implying O'Reilly was a passenger on Landeskog's line. Talented or not, Landeskog was a rookie last year. Let's not give him too much credit. The two worked amazingly well together. And yes, Duchene was matched with crap linemates, suffered injuries, etc. Nevertheless, he had a bad year and took the "prove it" contract. Not saying O'Reilly absolutely SHOULDN'T take that deal, but to ask for a little more is not "madness." Like it or not, O'Reilly has been the more consistent and reliable player since both were drafted.

You can say he wasn't "$3.5 million good" but that's just an arbitrary number.
I just don't see why O'Reilly should get more then Duchene.

Duchene did have an off year, but he out preformed O'Reilly, by a notable amount, over the duration of their entry level contacts.

Duchene was entitled to a higher starting wage because of his draft position. So even if O'Reilly does get the same contact as Duchene, it would be a bigger raise for O'Reilly.

I don't see how O'Reilly could ask for a bigger raise and higher salary then a player with the exact same experience, and a player who has out performed him.

CB Joe is offline  
Old
02-09-2013, 02:48 PM
  #761
JoemAvs
Registered User
 
JoemAvs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Country: Germany
Posts: 3,297
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by volaju View Post
It amazes me that people take anything Dater says seriously. It's quite clear at this point that he reads HFBoards -- hell, he used to post here before realizing that he was still considered a pariah -- and spins opinions that he reads here as "things he's hearing around the league."



Yeah, same here. It is fair. But like I alluded to earlier, I think its the Avs' stubborn refusal to negotiate whatsoever that has turned O'Reilly off. How do you go from trying to negotiate for more, only to be repeatedly told no, and then have to sign their initial contract wi1th your tail tucked between your legs? For a proud guy like O'Reilly? It's easy to see how that would piss him off. I really don't see O'Reilly refusing to play for $3.5M under normal circumstances -- it's the "take it or rot" stance.

I think back to Anderson's comments post-Colorado trade about wanting to play for an organization that treats its players with respect and communicates with them. I know Andy is an unpopular guy around here, but in light of his situation, Mueller, Flash, Lappy, Bruno, and now O'Reilly? I guess for some it's easier to shoot the messenger.
I think it is painfully obvious that at this point we are not a top tier organisation.
It starts with the complete disinterest of the ownership group.
The Kroenkes don't give a damn about the Avs. Josh cares about the Nuggets and the Avs are the ugly step sister you have to take along to get the hot girl. They won't lose any money on the Avs. That is for sure.
Lacroix is a moron. Or at least time has passed him by. He has way too much say. This incestous "hiring from the inside"- concept is horrible and the only good thing is that it is saving the Kroenke's dough.

Sherman is not a good GM but again "hire-from-the-inside" and I don't know how limited he is. But I absolutely despise his handling of free agency. Worst. Ever. And I would say that even without counting ROR.

The trades for Mueller and Fleischmann were great for us. But what is the point of making a trade if you let all the assets walk at the first possibility without any compensation. We traded Wolski (who had some value at that point) for 30 games of Mueller. Did we get unlucky? Sure. Was there any reason not to give them another shot and if it fails get at least something in return?


The Liles trade was horrific. He got incredibly lucky with Varly. Imagine this injury situation last year (and maybe add last years Duchene) and we hand them Yakupov.

And the biggest fail was resigning this moron of a coach. But again. "Inside of the organisation"

I could understand ROR wanting the hell out of there to a certain extent. But that is not the case. At least it does not seem like it.
ROR is a childish,fake-team guy who only cares about money. Good riddance sir.

Time to tank. And if we do and Sherm brings back Sacco next season I will cool on the Avs. There is just no reason to get up during the night for this organisation anymore

JoemAvs is online now  
Old
02-09-2013, 03:22 PM
  #762
Muffin
Avalanche Flavoured
 
Muffin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,726
vCash: 500
Most people around O’Reilly expect the Avs to trade him now. I’ll tell you this: when/if O’Reilly plays for another team, expect a good healthy rivalry between him and Matt Duchene every time they play. Plenty of people around O’Reilly are blaming Duchene for taking “short money” on a two-year deal, which effectively set the bar for O’Reilly, one the Avs won’t go over.

From Dater. Differences between Duchene and O'Reilly is that one of them WANTS to be here.

Muffin is offline  
Old
02-09-2013, 03:22 PM
  #763
Avs_19
Peter the Great
 
Avs_19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 38,243
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Every report from "the O'Reilly camp" make him look really bad. Hope for his sake it's just journalists speculating because if he is this easily offended and unreasonable, I got him completely wrong.

Just my 2c.
I said the same thing a couple days ago. If this is true, then O'Reilly has a lot of idiots around him.

Avs_19 is offline  
Old
02-09-2013, 03:38 PM
  #764
Hennessy
Blank Space
 
Hennessy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Östersund, Sweden
Country: United States
Posts: 6,987
vCash: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffin View Post
Most people around O’Reilly expect the Avs to trade him now. I’ll tell you this: when/if O’Reilly plays for another team, expect a good healthy rivalry between him and Matt Duchene every time they play. Plenty of people around O’Reilly are blaming Duchene for taking “short money” on a two-year deal, which effectively set the bar for O’Reilly, one the Avs won’t go over.

From Dater. Differences between Duchene and O'Reilly is that one of them WANTS to be here.
If that's true, O'Reilly needs new friends and advisers.

Hennessy is offline  
Old
02-09-2013, 03:55 PM
  #765
Muffin
Avalanche Flavoured
 
Muffin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,726
vCash: 500
So according to reports he basically(May not be true):

Hates Duchene for taking less money
Hates Landeskog for getting Captaincy over him
Hates Stastny for getting overpaid and getting better treatment

How does he even walk back into the room even if he does get signed?


Last edited by Muffin: 02-09-2013 at 04:04 PM.
Muffin is offline  
Old
02-09-2013, 04:54 PM
  #766
The Pwnerer
We are never give up
 
The Pwnerer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 3,567
vCash: 500
Trade Stastny for a top pairing dmen, sign Oreilly to a 5 million long term contract then once Duchene is up give him the Tavares contract. Seems reasonable enough. There's no way long term this team can afford 3 five million plus centers in the future. Its a luxury if we had timed it right maybe we could have had a big year and contend but that's not happening. Smarten up Sherman you have to let go one of these centers. It's sad but so true.

The Pwnerer is offline  
Old
02-09-2013, 04:54 PM
  #767
Huis Clos*
Creamy Hamstrings
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ballarado
Country: United States
Posts: 6,020
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by volaju View Post
This situation is bringing some seriously bad press to this organization. Gotta imagine this will have ramifications on this team down the line, with their own players and other FAs. Can't imagine this battle was worth it in the long run. Good going, Avs.
Everything is ancillary to winning. Bad press only matters with bad teams.

Huis Clos* is offline  
Old
02-09-2013, 05:17 PM
  #768
18007
Balls on the table!
 
18007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Boone, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 2,898
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffin View Post
So according to reports he basically(May not be true):

Hates Duchene for taking less money
Hates Landeskog for getting Captaincy over him
Hates Stastny for getting overpaid and getting better treatment

How does he even walk back into the room even if he does get signed?
Sounds to me more like Mark Guy who has the problem, not RoR. I just see RoR as a ukulele playing hippie's son who happens to a be a rink rat and real good at hockey. I can't imagine all of the bad rumors are emanating from him, he just seems like too nice of a guy. I mean whose bright idea was it to go to sign a 2 year deal in Russia for Christ sake.

18007 is offline  
Old
02-09-2013, 05:20 PM
  #769
The Mars Volchenkov
Everberg flow
 
The Mars Volchenkov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Colorado
Country: United States
Posts: 38,872
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to The Mars Volchenkov
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pwnerer View Post
Trade Stastny for a top pairing dmen, sign Oreilly to a 5 million long term contract then once Duchene is up give him the Tavares contract. Seems reasonable enough.
The way Stastny has been playing, with that contract, he isn't bringing back a top pairing defenseman. It's time to give up on that dream.

The Mars Volchenkov is offline  
Old
02-09-2013, 05:56 PM
  #770
CB Joe
Registered User
 
CB Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,507
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mars Volchenkov View Post
The way Stastny has been playing, with that contract, he isn't bringing back a top pairing defenseman. It's time to give up on that dream.
Agreed. Also if O'Reilly gets $5m, Landeskog, Duchene, and Varlamov are going to want $6-7m on their next contacts.

CB Joe is offline  
Old
02-09-2013, 05:59 PM
  #771
IceRat
#BallsOnTheTable
 
IceRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,280
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Every report from "the O'Reilly camp" make him look really bad. Hope for his sake it's just journalists speculating because if he is this easily offended and unreasonable, I got him completely wrong.

Just my 2c.
keep it well hidden, ROR might demand it if he sees it

IceRat is offline  
Old
02-09-2013, 06:09 PM
  #772
TwoPadStack
Gross Misconduct
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,353
vCash: 900
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffin View Post
So according to reports he basically(May not be true):

Hates Duchene for taking less money
Hates Landeskog for getting Captaincy over him
Hates Stastny for getting overpaid and getting better treatment

How does he even walk back into the room even if he does get signed?
I heard he also invented cancer.

TwoPadStack is offline  
Old
02-09-2013, 06:11 PM
  #773
BrickAHL
#AvaloungeRevolution
 
BrickAHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,001
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoPadStack View Post
I heard he also invented cancer.
That *******!


BrickAHL is online now  
Old
02-09-2013, 06:11 PM
  #774
Huis Clos*
Creamy Hamstrings
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ballarado
Country: United States
Posts: 6,020
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffin View Post
So according to reports he basically(May not be true):

Hates Duchene for taking less money
Hates Landeskog for getting Captaincy over him
Hates Stastny for getting overpaid and getting better treatment

How does he even walk back into the room even if he does get signed?
Absolutely hilarious if any of that is remotely true. If true we're treading into "Lindros" bad advisement.

Huis Clos* is offline  
Old
02-09-2013, 06:12 PM
  #775
Huis Clos*
Creamy Hamstrings
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ballarado
Country: United States
Posts: 6,020
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoPadStack View Post
I heard he also invented cancer.
Take it up with Dater then.

Huis Clos* is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:56 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.