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Kings Acquire Keaton Ellerby from the Panthers for a 2013 5th Round Pick

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Old
02-09-2013, 12:20 PM
  #126
damacles1156
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My problem with Muzzin is, he doesn't use that overrated size everyone is in love with.

What good is your (frame) if you don't use it. Campbell and Muzzin are guilty as hell with this.

Muzzin should be crushing people out there, no one should be able to get the puck from this kid.

That is so not the case, He is extremely weak on the boards and weak with puck possession.

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02-09-2013, 12:44 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Frolov 6'3 View Post
Correct but for every King and Lewis there have been a truckload of other players who were indeed 'useless' after all. Muzzin's play in the AHL was already piss poor, according to the followers. He should at least be a little dominant over there.

Of course you can give any player the benefit of the doubt because "he is still a rookie" and ''he has upside" but I'm a little more outspoken on matters like this.
Read my post again. I explicitly say we do not know one way or another whether he will be OK or not. Not giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Of course there have been truckloads of players who were "useless", but like due process, you need to make sure they're useless before cutting them. I think your comment speaks to volumes to how you approach player development. Cut everyone who doesn't show promise on their first call up because there are truckloads of people who don't make it! I'm just glad you're not the GM.

I said its too early to judge. You seem to be in a rush to throw him off the island. He might make it, he might not. But to call him useless at this point is premature and reactionary.

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02-09-2013, 01:14 PM
  #128
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Ridiculous. Muzzin is not even close to his prime or potential. As others have said, under the circumstances he's done a pretty good job. Some players take longer to gain confidence to play their game. They're not all going to be Doughtys and Voynovs.

Anyone remember Alec Martinez' for stint in the NHL? This is the same ****ing thing.

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02-09-2013, 01:24 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Frolov 6'3 View Post
Muzzin is useless. I'm not saying he's the reason for this struggle or that he should replace Greene or Michell because this team has quite some more problems currently. He's just useless, no NHL player.

Sometimes I wonder if you get a dollar for every positive review.
Useless? Wow, what a ********* comment.

The guy may not be NHL ready yet, and may never be a very good player, but time is way to early to tell. The kid has a lot of potential, that's universally agreed, and while he may never relaize it for many reasons, such as not using his size for one, he very well could reach a very high level.

At his age, Scuderi was a few years away from even reaching the NHL and Willie Mitchell was just first cutting his teeth with the Devils, and not doing a very good job of it btw. Neither of those guys were legimately top 4 NHL D-men until they were in their late 20's.

Of course by that point you'd likely have labeled them as "useless."

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02-09-2013, 04:30 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by driller1 View Post
Read my post again. I explicitly say we do not know one way or another whether he will be OK or not. Not giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Of course there have been truckloads of players who were "useless", but like due process, you need to make sure they're useless before cutting them. I think your comment speaks to volumes to how you approach player development. Cut everyone who doesn't show promise on their first call up because there are truckloads of people who don't make it! I'm just glad you're not the GM.

I said its too early to judge. You seem to be in a rush to throw him off the island. He might make it, he might not. But to call him useless at this point is premature and reactionary.
Yes but driller, you do not have to agree with me. Hickey didnt even play a single Kings game and was put on waivers. There was no hesitation there.

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02-09-2013, 04:37 PM
  #131
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Is Ellerby a #6 dman? If so, a 5th for him is a steal. Not that I see this happening, but I can easily imagine DL turning Ellerby in a trade at the deadline for a 2nd and 4th rd pick or something like that.

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02-09-2013, 05:05 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frolov 6'3 View Post
Yes but driller, you do not have to agree with me. Hickey didnt even play a single Kings game and was put on waivers. There was no hesitation there.
It was a numbers game. Greene didn't hurt his back until the first game. Either the Kings put Hickey on waivers or Muzzin on waivers. DL made his choice. But that has nothing to do with Muzzin getting due process from this point forward on whether or not he makes it.

Besides, what exactly do you want to do once you cut Muzzin? Replace him with what exactly? It's not like there's a plethora of free agents or desirable D-men just hanging out on the corner waiting to be signed. Based on your previous posts, it seems like you are advocating cutting him, just for the sake of cutting him.

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02-09-2013, 05:07 PM
  #133
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Will he play against Detroit tomorrow?

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02-09-2013, 05:11 PM
  #134
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Will he play against Detroit tomorrow?
Yeah, he practiced with the team today. He will be on the top pairing with Doughty.

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02-09-2013, 06:01 PM
  #135
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I find Muzzin to be one of the more overrated Kings prospects. Ranked highly due to his size, he's not much different than Drewiske. My opinion, he has a loooong way to go before he's ready to see regular ice time as part of a top six D-pairing on any NHL roster.

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02-09-2013, 06:16 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
I find Muzzin to be one of the more overrated Kings prospects. Ranked highly due to his size, he's not much different than Drewiske. My opinion, he has a loooong way to go before he's ready to see regular ice time as part of a top six D-pairing on any NHL roster.
Agreed.

But I do think Drewiske is a lot better (and is underrated in these parts).

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02-09-2013, 07:03 PM
  #137
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Yeah, he practiced with the team today. He will be on the top pairing with Doughty.
Interesting.

Ellerby and Doughty played on the same team in the Super Series for Canada in 2007. Ellerby and Bernier also played together, just don't know if Ellerby and Doughty were paired in that series. Interestingly enough, these guys played against Voynov. So Ellerby is somewhat familiar with his new teammates.

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02-09-2013, 07:11 PM
  #138
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Ellerby is currently a placeholder until Mitchell and/or Greene return, with a window to prove himself. If he plays adequately or above expectations during this window, he has the chance to push someone out or eventually replace one of our shutdown left shooting D (Scuderi/Mitchell).

I wouldn't get terribly excited about the kid. We got him for a fifth for a reason. He's simply a placeholder shutdown D that we can all only hope performs adequately enough to warrant a more permanent look down along the road.

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02-09-2013, 07:37 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Richie10 View Post
Ellerby is currently a placeholder until Mitchell and/or Greene return, with a window to prove himself. If he plays adequately or above expectations during this window, he has the chance to push someone out or eventually replace one of our shutdown left shooting D (Scuderi/Mitchell).

I wouldn't get terribly excited about the kid. We got him for a fifth for a reason. He's simply a placeholder shutdown D that we can all only hope performs adequately enough to warrant a more permanent look down along the road.
The Kings didn't trade for Ellerby to get a superstar. They traded for Ellerby to have more stable defensive corps. The defense played a lot better when they had defined roles. It's looking more stable now.

The other thing I don't get is "he cost a fifth for a reason." Do you forget Kyle Quincey, who the Kings got for nothing? The Islanders got Hickey for nothing, and he seems to be doing all right. The Kings got him for cheap because he was a victim of a numbers game.

While it's fair to have cautious optimism at best with a prospect, I do think you're overlooking some key info here leading to your assertion.

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02-09-2013, 09:30 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Frolov 6'3 View Post
Sometimes, yes indeed.

A few years ago, when the Kings acquired Dan Cloutier. I knew we wasted a 2nd round pick after watching a ton of Canucks games on my telly. I was thinking what the **** was going on. GM's/staff can make mistakes and can see things wrong too. Just like me.
A key difference here is that you haven't watched Muzzin play on the farm, I have watched him play a ton both in Manchester and in SSM when he was a Greyhound and am basing my opinion of him on hsving seen him play more thsn 11 gmes 3 seasons ago or 8 whole games this season.

By the way for a pure rookie who is useless as an NHLer his stats for 8 games has with 1g, 1a and a plus 3 while playing limited minutes paired with our #7 dman who played 9 games last season and has 9 games this season with the Kings.

I agree with you on our getting Cloutier as being a mistake and knew it at the time as well. I am not saying our staff is incapable of making a mistake but I will say that Futa nor any of our other developmental staff had anything to do with Cloutier either in acquiring him or dealing with him after doing so.

They have with Muzzin.


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02-09-2013, 10:41 PM
  #141
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I hope Keaton wins the Norris so we can tell St Louis that he is the real Alex P.

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02-09-2013, 11:00 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
A key difference here is that you haven't watched Muzzin play on the farm, I have watched him play a ton both in Manchester and in SSM when he was a Greyhound and am basing my opinion of him on hsving seen him play more thsn 11 gmes 3 seasons ago or 8 whole games this season.

By the way for a pure rookie who is useless as an NHLer his stats for 8 games has with 1g, 1a and a plus 3 while playing limited minutes paired with our #7 dman who played 9 games last season and has 9 games this season with the Kings.

I agree with you on our getting Cloutier as being a mistake and knew it at the time as well. I am not saying our staff is incapable of making a mistake but I will say that Futa nor any of our other developmental staff had anything to do with Cloutier either in acquiring him or dealing with him after doing so.

They have with Muzzin.
The argument that I agree with is that Muzzin has been playing very sheltered minutes, and still isn't looking that great. It would be one thing if he was forced to play some hard minutes, but ultimately, there comes a time when you have to turn that potential into results.

While I agree it is too early to give up on Muzzin, I also don't think he will develop into anything worthwhile if he's struggling with sheltered minutes. Either he should accept as the 7th defenseman with the occasional game to build his confidence again, or Kings management should roll the dice and risk putting him on waivers (or trade him if they think they'll lose him).

It's not so much about his potential anymore right now. The team is trying to win, and his current play isn't fostering that. And that's why he's going to have to accept being the 7th defenseman... Martinez should be looking over his shoulder if he continues to struggle as well, because this gives Muzzin the opportunity to try to take his spot.

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02-09-2013, 11:27 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
... Martinez should be looking over his shoulder if he continues to struggle as well, because this gives Muzzin the opportunity to try to take his spot.
Hell ... at this point almost even DREW needs to be looking over his shoulder if he continues to struggle ...

Quote:
Star defenseman Drew Doughty was a minus-2 against Nashville on Thursday, posting a negative rating for the third straight game. He ranks among the worst in the NHL at minus-8 on the season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Sutter
On whether Drew Doughty is “pressing”: “No, I just don’t think he’s good enough early in games. That’s not pressing. We expect a lot out of him. He and his partner are on the ice for too many goals against.”
J'mf'J is only a -4 by comparison

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02-09-2013, 11:52 PM
  #144
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Honestly for me most of the -8 is on Skuds....might be the worst Kings Dman in the top 4 atm...he can not handle the mins and you can see it in his play.

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02-10-2013, 12:13 AM
  #145
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The argument that I agree with is that Muzzin has been playing very sheltered minutes, and still isn't looking that great. It would be one thing if he was forced to play some hard minutes, but ultimately, there comes a time when you have to turn that potential into results.

While I agree it is too early to give up on Muzzin, I also don't think he will develop into anything worthwhile if he's struggling with sheltered minutes. Either he should accept as the 7th defenseman with the occasional game to build his confidence again, or Kings management should roll the dice and risk putting him on waivers (or trade him if they think they'll lose him).

It's not so much about his potential anymore right now. The team is trying to win, and his current play isn't fostering that. And that's why he's going to have to accept being the 7th defenseman... Martinez should be looking over his shoulder if he continues to struggle as well, because this gives Muzzin the opportunity to try to take his spot.
You make some fine points.

Here is where we differ.

You are in essence asking a true rookie, a kid who has been playing in the minor leagues with a grand total of 11 games 3 years ago to come into situation where a team that has enormous expectations is struggling due to the loss of two of its key veteran players (at least partly) to come in and not only cover one of these two key vets but also turn things around for the team..

Muzzin is a solid rookie prospect NHL caliber defenceman. He has NHL skill and is showing that he can compete at the NHL level so far. What he isn't (nor is any other prospect save the very few elite Doughty, Stevens, Potvin, Robinson etc true rookies) capable of doing is stepping in as a true rookie and replace a top pairing D man who plays a different style of game then he does.

He can only come in and at best be the 3rd pairing (I have always projected him to be a 4/6 dman who can skate, use his body and provide a bit of offence once he has established himself) dman that he is asked to be and that is only after he has a chance to adjust to the entirely different level of play that the NHL provides.

If we were bringing Muzzin in with WM and MG in the line up to play as our 7th d who gets worked into the line up slowly he would fit in just fine in the same manner that AMart did when he was brought up.

If we were bringing Muzzin in when only one or the other of WM or MG were missing and asking him to step in and fill in the best he could for either one of those guys he would do allot better due to the fact that we would only be missing one or the other of our key vets and we would be able to cover Muzz better while he adjusts to the NHL.

We aren't doing either of those things. We have thrown Muzzin into a terrible situation for a rookie and have paired him with a player who, as our #7d has played in 18games over the past two years. To put it in perspective DavisD over the past two seasons has played in as many games as Muzzin has ever played in the NHL.

Now I think that DavisD could easily make several NHL rosters as a 3rd pairing guy (not all but several) and I think he is a solid journeyman D but he hasn't played enough over the past couple of seasons to be able to go in and fill the skates of WM or MG and try to bring Muzzin along too.

He is just the wrong guy to do that job.

Muzzin is a rookie and he is having his ups and downs, good games and not so good games but given time and coverage he will be fine. Where he will flesh out is open for debate but he has proven under these not so great circumstances that he can compete at the NHL level and that is a great sign for a kid who has played in 8 games so far this season and 19 games total in the NHL.


Last edited by etherialone: 02-10-2013 at 12:20 AM.
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02-10-2013, 12:15 AM
  #146
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Honestly for me most of the -8 is on Skuds....might be the worst Kings Dman in the top 4 atm...he can not handle the mins and you can see it in his play.
DD has two goals solely on him in the last 3 games due to turnovers and one other that Quick saved on the doorstep. His turnovers in his end is getting national attention.

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02-10-2013, 12:19 AM
  #147
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Muzzin has all the tools, But what he has not done (that pisses me off the most). Is use his very good size.

Muzzin and Campbell both are just clueless how big they are. Easily knocked off the puck, both don't establish body position FIRST.

They need to watch a much smaller guy (Voynov) school people using his body to shield pucks, and separate people from said Puck.

That has to be the most annoying thing with Muzzin. He has the same problem in Manchester.

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02-10-2013, 12:20 AM
  #148
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Honestly for me most of the -8 is on Skuds....might be the worst Kings Dman in the top 4 atm...he can not handle the mins and you can see it in his play.
I can count 4 of those minuses, were direct turnovers from Drew.

Lets not act like he didn't partake in those minuses.

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02-10-2013, 12:24 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Muzzin has all the tools, But what he has not done (that pisses me off the most). Is use his very good size.

Muzzin and Campbell both are just clueless how big they are. Easily knocked off the puck, both don't establish body position FIRST.

They need to watch a much smaller guy (Voynov) school people using his body to shield pucks, and separate people from said Puck.

That has to be the most annoying thing with Muzzin. He has the same problem in Manchester.
You guys keep saying Muzzin is a big guy? I never knew until I looked it up. He plays so weak. He also hunches and leans. How does a guy with his reach never show it? I like his shot so it's not all bad but he's invisible in the corners and refuses to bat an eyelash against anyone physical.

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02-10-2013, 12:29 AM
  #150
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This is why I have high hope For Forbort.

Forbort Plays big, like his size. At least this season he is.

Took him a bit, but the kid plays like a 6'5" 220 lbs defender.

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