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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread III

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Old
02-09-2013, 06:32 PM
  #426
BillyShoe1721
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Philadelphia selects D Lionel Hitchman, someone please notify the next GM.


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02-09-2013, 06:59 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
If we really are going to diminish a players career because he either was too depressed to refute the accusations of doping or might have doped then we could just shut down the ATD as we would get into which player took cocaine and how many of the modern players drink medicine containing epherdrine every night.
Cocaine is a hell of a drug, but it is not specifically a performance enhancing drug. You take cocaine to get high, not to cheat at hockey.

Quote:
Edit: Btw the traffic analogy is pretty bad. Its impossible to test and catch every driver BUT you can however test a majority of hockey players in the NHL and catch them. NHL however doesnt see that as a viable business.
And this applies to Soviet players how?

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02-09-2013, 07:08 PM
  #428
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Philadelphia selects D Lionel Hitchman
Looking forward to reading the bio you will certainly do on him.

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02-09-2013, 07:20 PM
  #429
Hobnobs
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Cocaine is a hell of a drug, but it is not specifically a performance enhancing drug. You take cocaine to get high, not to cheat at hockey.


Its a central stimulant, ofcourse its performance enhancing.

Cocaine increases alertness, feelings of well-being and euphoria, energy and motor activity, feelings of competence and sexuality. Athletic performance may be enhanced in sports where sustained attention and endurance is required. Anxiety, paranoia and restlessness are also frequent. With excessive dosage, tremors, convulsions and increased body temperature are observed.

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02-09-2013, 07:26 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post


Its a central stimulant, ofcourse its performance enhancing.

Cocaine increases alertness, feelings of well-being and euphoria, energy and motor activity, feelings of competence and sexuality. Athletic performance may be enhanced in sports where sustained attention and endurance is required. Anxiety, paranoia and restlessness are also frequent. With excessive dosage, tremors, convulsions and increased body temperature are observed.
Even if cocaine did enhance performance in hockey (something that I really don't think is true), teams would have to keep a stash behind the bench to avoid having players crash before the period was over.

It's nothing like steroids.


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02-09-2013, 07:33 PM
  #431
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Gotta be the first time Martinec has gone before Big Ned. This is correct, but both could go higher.

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02-09-2013, 07:39 PM
  #432
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Snorting cocaine before making physical efforts is very dangerous for your cardiovascular system.Even a young healthy male with no heart problem in his 20s could have an infarct or a stroke under such circumstances.

Even if cocaine could help an athlete perform at a higher level in the short term , it wouldn't take very long until his overall condition is affected to the point where his performances will get worst and worst due to cocaine addiction and all the effects that comes with it , such as psychological problems and bad eating and sleeping habits.

My guess is it would take between 1 and 2 years , but with the amount of cash the players are making , it is possible the problem will get out of control way quicker than normal people who actually has to find money to maintain their addiction.

Also while cocaine MIGHT help you in some ways , I'm not entirely sure that is true.If the player is already on the small side , cocaine will prevent him from gaining/maintaining the necessary fat/muscle to be at a reasonable weight/strenght level to compete against larger players.I don't think cocaine will help your on-ice vision that much either , maybe a very good high on any given night could give the player a small advantage , but this advantage will be balanced by the negative effect it'll have on the on-ice vision on any given night where the player is not feeling that well despite taking cocaine.The longer the addiction , the more often these bad nights will happen and the less often the good ones will occur.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 02-09-2013 at 07:46 PM.
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02-09-2013, 07:43 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
Snorting cocaine before making physical efforts is very dangerous for your cardiovascular system.Even a young healthy male with no heart problem in his 20s could have an infarct or a stroke under such circumstances.

Even if cocaine could help an athlete perform at a higher level in the short term , it wouldn't take very long until his overall condition is affected to the point where his performances will get worst and worst due to cocaine addiction and all the effects that comes with it , such as psychological problems and bad eating and sleeping habits.

My guess is it would take between 1 and 2 years , but with the amount of cash the players are making , it is possible the problem will get out of control way quicker than normal people who actually has to find money to maintain their addiction.
Agreed.....and Len Bias says goodbye.

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02-09-2013, 07:54 PM
  #434
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Cocaine doesn't really get you 'high', it drastically improves alertness and energy as well as confidence...something a hockey player could use.

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02-09-2013, 07:55 PM
  #435
BenchBrawl
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Cocaine doesn't really get you 'high', it drastically improves alertness and energy as well as confidence...something a hockey player could use.
how many times have you used cocaine in your life?

In my opinion , a player wouldn't snort cocaine before/during a hockey game to boost his performances , he would snort it because he is addicted and he doesn't feel like waiting 3 or 4 hours before taking some.


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02-09-2013, 08:10 PM
  #436
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Allllllll right guys. Enough with the discussion of personal cocaine usage.

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02-09-2013, 08:17 PM
  #437
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Allllllll right guys. Enough with the discussion of personal cocaine usage.
But... Mitch Hedberg

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Old
02-09-2013, 08:19 PM
  #438
BenchBrawl
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Allllllll right guys. Enough with the discussion of personal cocaine usage.
who talked about personal cocaine usage?

we were debating whether or not coke was a drug to use to enhanced performances in hockey.

It seems pretty straight forward to me that cocaine is not like steroids , steroids won't be used for party or short term relief of psychological issues , cocaine will , and cocaine won't be used to enhanced performances , steroids will.


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02-09-2013, 08:39 PM
  #439
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In my opinion , a player wouldn't snort cocaine before/during a hockey game to boost his performances , he would snort it because he is addicted and he doesn't feel like waiting 3 or 4 hours before taking some.
no worries - i'll delete all my scientific crap then


Last edited by papershoes: 02-09-2013 at 08:48 PM.
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02-09-2013, 08:42 PM
  #440
BenchBrawl
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that still doesn't mean it doesn't have performance enhancing qualities. a quick search of some scientific databases certainly provides a link between stimulants (of which cocaine is included) and performance enhancement.

"Stimulants offer one of the broadest categories of performance enhancing drugs. Stimulants include common everyday substances like coffee or cold medicine, and also include street drugs like cocaine and methamphetamine. Stimulants have become popularized as performance enhancing drugs because oftheir ability to reduce fatigue, suppress appetites, and increase alertness and aggression (Mayo Clinic, 2008). Ephedrine is a stimulant that has become popular among athletes, most notably hockey players. Users of ephedrine find that the drug makes them 'feel less fatigued, experience bursts of energy, and lose weight' (Fernandez, Hosey, 2009, p. 20)." (Samb, 2011)

The book "Drugs in Sports", by David Mottram also has a nice chapter on stimulant use as a potential performance-enhancer in sports.

My point, and getting back to the Krutov debate, is that he seems to be the only player slammed because of his perceived doping in the literature (though others have posted literature about his depression and inability to adjust - which we seem to ignore) and punished by dropping his ATD value. Yet, a player like Guy Lafleur's party lifestyle and substance abuse, and declining statistics and play, are ignored outside of his brilliant peak. Why isn't Guy's value decreased? There have been numerous allegations regarding cocaine, or other substance, use in print for other players (including an SI article on the 80's Oilers) but, all of these guys get a free pass with little discussion. And, completely un-related to substance abuse, Mark Messier was terrible in his Vancouver years and final years, but no-one ever discusses dropping his ATD value into a mid-range between his peak and low-level output.
You come here will all this scientific crap while anyone who used cocaine or knows people who used cocaine know fairly well how quickly your performances will drop by using it regularly which will happen in the majority of cases.These guys are describing the short term effects of the drugs , not the long term ones , and by long term I really mean one year.

And while I'm at it , even in the short term cocaine won't help you perform better the next day.Whether or not a player goes to a strip club to snort cocaine on a stipper's fat ass as nothing to do with how he'll perform the night after.If anything he'll just be ****ed up the next morning.

I also fail to see the comparison between Messier and Krutov , Messier was 37 years old when he moved to Vancouver , not 29.What a player does after 37 years old is often more a bonus than anything else.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 02-09-2013 at 08:53 PM.
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02-09-2013, 08:47 PM
  #441
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Allllllll right guys. Enough with the discussion of personal cocaine usage.
Yeah, I was threatened with a lawsuit by a friend of Rob Brown (who sent me nasty PMs) by my merely citing a legal accusation filed against him that he was not convicted of in the end.

Claims of illegal activity against unconvicted individuals is an indictable offense. Defamation of character, libel, etcetera.

I have been a teaching assistant as a grad student in university in a Philosophy of Law course and yet I have committed the faux pas of re-citing unproven-in-court public allegations against a hockey player. I narrowly avoided a court case against me. Strenous apologies were necessary, even though I had merely cited a court-submitted indictment against (that had failed eventually, which I should have mentioned, apparently).

Remember: O.J. Simpson was NOT technically convicted of murder in a criminal court (with the standard of evidence of: beyond a reasonable doubt), but was convicted of kidnapping. Ouch! A split hair. He was convicted in a civil court, but that was in terms of "responsibility" not "murder" and the standard of evidence was balance of probability. The end result? Legally, tthe judgements were that he probably did it (civil court) but there wasn't enough evidence to be certain (criminal court).

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02-09-2013, 08:56 PM
  #442
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In the early 80's cocaine in the NBA was a major problem, and the signs of this were obvious. Players just crashing and burning like a meteor. Then Len Bias happened.

Was there some cocaine use? Probably. Was there regimented cocaine as a performance enhancer usage? Any player that did would flame out spectacularly sooner rather than latter.

The reason Krutov is singled out is not because of the performance enhancer allegations, it's because he crashed so fiercely that he was Pavel Brendl caliber before he hit 30. And the performance enhancer allegations explain how a great player could so quickly become so bad.

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02-09-2013, 08:58 PM
  #443
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to MadArcand - Hartford Whalers 228, 292

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02-09-2013, 09:00 PM
  #444
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So long as we are playing Unsolved Mysteries here on All Time Draft... I wonder if anyone knows about the steroid usage of the following...

Newsy Lalonde- 24 GP 33 G in 1921... 20 GP 9 G in 1922
Joe Malone- 24 GP 24 G in 1922... 20 GP 1 G in 1923
Marty Barry- 48 GP 21 G in 1936... 48 GP 9 G in 1938
Busher Jackson- 46 GP 21 G in 1937... 10 G in 1939... no more 20 goal seasons ever
Henri Richard- 65 GP 21 G in 1967 9 G in 54 GP in 1968
Clark Gillies- 79 GP 38 G in 1982... 76 GP 12 G in 1984

It appears there has been steroid ring in the NHL since 1920s... maybe the biggest scandal ever...

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02-09-2013, 09:01 PM
  #445
BenchBrawl
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
In the early 80's cocaine in the NBA was a major problem
Could erase ''In the NBA'' and it would be a correct statement anyway .

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02-09-2013, 09:02 PM
  #446
Nalyd Psycho
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Given the era it was more likely serious alcohol abuse. (In the case of Busher Jackson, that is quite likely.)

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02-09-2013, 09:02 PM
  #447
BenchBrawl
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Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
So long as we are playing Unsolved Mysteries here on All Time Draft... I wonder if anyone knows about the steroid usage of the following...

Newsy Lalonde- 24 GP 33 G in 1921... 20 GP 9 G in 1922
Joe Malone- 24 GP 24 G in 1922... 20 GP 1 G in 1923
Marty Barry- 48 GP 21 G in 1936... 48 GP 9 G in 1938
Busher Jackson- 46 GP 21 G in 1937... 10 G in 1939... no more 20 goal seasons ever
Henri Richard- 65 GP 21 G in 1967 9 G in 54 GP in 1968
Clark Gillies- 79 GP 38 G in 1982... 76 GP 12 G in 1984

It appears there has been steroid ring in the NHL since 1920s... maybe the biggest scandal ever...

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02-09-2013, 09:02 PM
  #448
Nalyd Psycho
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Could erase ''In the NBA'' and it would be a correct statement anyway .
Yes, but the rest of the world weren't world class athletes, the NBA provided a great example of how coke can effect athletes.

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02-09-2013, 09:05 PM
  #449
BenchBrawl
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Given the era it was more likely serious alcohol abuse. (In the case of Busher Jackson, that is quite likely.)
Agreed , I think alcohol has always been a problem in all fields of society , even today.I'm sure there's some players that are currently alcoholics that we don't know about and that will slow down more quickly than expected.

Doug Harvey was a big-time alcoholic , and so what.

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02-09-2013, 09:05 PM
  #450
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The reason Krutov is singled out is not because of the performance enhancer allegations, it's because he crashed so fiercely that he was Pavel Brendl caliber before he hit 30. And the performance enhancer allegations explain how a great player could so quickly become so bad.
Fair enough - but so could depression, home-sickness, and an inability to adapt to a North American lifestyle. How do we know which one it is? There are accounts on both sides.

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