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02-09-2013, 11:14 PM
  #526
PocketNines
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Originally Posted by MattyMo35 View Post
You brought up the argument that Jaro was as bad last year at the beginning of the season as Elliott has been lately. You were given evidence to suggest the contrary, and you crafted this quality response. Bad goaltending has led to losses lately, and it led to losses at the beginning of last year, but Jaro never had a stretch as bad as the one Elliott is on right now. There is no evidence to back up your argument, so you resort to condescension. Big surprise.
I replied to "you gotta be ****ing kidding me" as the "evidence to suggest the contrary."

It seems weird to me that I supplied evidence to back up the argument (as well as simply remembering those games) and you state that "there is no evidence" to back up my argument. Whether you didn't watch those games or don't remember them might lead you to not understand the evidence is beside the point logistically it can't be "no" evidence when you clearly see the evidence.

I did condescend a little to the argument that the whole side debate hinges on the number of 5-goal games, because, well, come on. So you got me on that. Always glad to see you introduce a personal insult though.

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02-09-2013, 11:14 PM
  #527
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
My bad, guys. I thought we were talking about being mad when our favorite team loses because of goalie play, and how this was happening last year and Halak was costing the team multiple games like Elliott has in the past few. I didn't realize we were arguing how many "5-goal games" there were. When you think about it, that really is the key. 5 goal games. Because and stuff.
Bringing up semantics at this point is just another useless attempt.

Not all of us are just making angry posts. There is some truth to Elliot being terrible right now. Halak hasnt been great either, but he's been better. You're trying to win a debate by bringing up last years stats. They arent relevant right now.

Elliot was a world beater last season and started off very, very well. Its an unfair comparison. You know that. Elliots history and Halaks history dont match up if you want to keep playing with stats.

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02-09-2013, 11:15 PM
  #528
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Originally Posted by taylord22 View Post
I thought it was partially Perron's fault...he was outgunned by 2men and retained the puck (somewhat) and then even when he was surrounded by 4, he thought he could win the battle vs. sending it around the boards. I liked his game for the most part tonight, but that was a mental gaffe

Does anybody else feel like Polak deserves to be the next player to take a seat?! Hurts saying it, but his play has been poor to say the least...he got benched at the end of the game, correct?
He's been horrible, but even so, we can't really lose his physicality on the backend. So I'm not sure what to do about that. Thinking about it though, that just magnifies our need to get another punishing player back there because we lack one, and Polak probably could use a night off.

I'm sure Hitchcock can't wait to put his boy Russell back in though. God I will be pissed if Cole sits. He's better than Russell and Redden and looked just fine tonight.

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02-09-2013, 11:17 PM
  #529
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Honestly I'm not confident in either goalie at all right now. You guys can argue who's better and who's fault it is but they both aren't making the game easier for the team.

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02-09-2013, 11:18 PM
  #530
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Agreed, we're facing problems with the whole team right now.

Frankly I'm worried about the LA game. I don't care that their record is bad, they will be a tough matchup because of their style.

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02-09-2013, 11:18 PM
  #531
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I don't think there's any question that Elliott is a better goaltender than he's looked to start this season, so talking about him like this is his true talent level isn't going to lead to a very productive discussion.

Did he play anywhere during the lockout? He looks incredibly rusty to me from a technical standpoint, and those issues are being compounded by shaken confidence as the number of poor performances piles up.

The way the team is playing around him sure isn't helping. Blown assignments galore, with much worse puck pursuit/pressure and gap control than I expected to see. This team used to consistently own the middle of the ice, hound teams off the puck on the back-check in transition, and outnumber teams at the point of attack. Where did that team go?

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02-09-2013, 11:19 PM
  #532
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Originally Posted by sbet1998 View Post
Bringing up semantics at this point is just another useless attempt.

Not all of us are just making angry posts. There is some truth to Elliot being terrible right now. Halak hasnt been great either, but he's been better. You're trying to win a debate by bringing up last years stats. They arent relevant right now.

Elliot was a world beater last season and started off very, very well. Its an unfair comparison. You know that. Elliots history and Halaks history dont match up if you want to keep playing with stats.
That's the argument though, people saying Elliott is way worse than Halal at the beginning of last season.

It's like arguing who's the taller midget.

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02-09-2013, 11:19 PM
  #533
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The goaltending has been poor this year I don't think anyone can argue against that, but team defense has been equally as poor as the goaltending.

This still is a team game, they played a better game tonight but it wasn’t a 60 minute game and if it were they would have gotten the win, this was a team lost.

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02-09-2013, 11:20 PM
  #534
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Originally Posted by ToniJ1960 View Post
I agree I wasnt happy then or now with the goaltending performances. I was just giving you numbers against the numbers you were using.
Yeah but I'd just reply that "numbers against the numbers" being 5-goal games isn't really useful analysis. It's just a random slice. For instance I could point out that in actuality Halak lost the Blues MORE games last year at the outset than Elliott has lost them this year at the outset. He's been brutal in 3 straight games but Halak lost them more than that to start last year. So that would be a random slice of data that isn't fair either, though I'd argue it's more fair than an arbitrary 5 goal standard.

Honestly my main reason for bringing it up is to point out that each of our goalies has now been awful to start a season and it cost the Blues games. Elliott's poor play has cost the Blues games, Halak's poor play cost them even more games early on last year. Yet there wasn't all this "Halak you POS" back then. It's a valid issue to bring up, that our fan base has different standards to which each goalie is held. Seems unfair to me.

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02-09-2013, 11:21 PM
  #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
I replied to "you gotta be ****ing kidding me" as the "evidence to suggest the contrary."

It seems weird to me that I supplied evidence to back up the argument (as well as simply remembering those games) and you state that "there is no evidence" to back up my argument. Whether you didn't watch those games or don't remember them might lead you to not understand the evidence is beside the point logistically it can't be "no" evidence when you clearly see the evidence.

I did condescend a little to the argument that the whole side debate hinges on the number of 5-goal games, because, well, come on. So you got me on that. Always glad to see you introduce a personal insult though.
I never said "you gotta be ****ing kidding me". I'm not sure who said that, but it wasn't me. You bring up numbers to show that Jaro played just as poorly at the beginning of last season, when in reality every number you bring up about Jaro, Elliott has managed to be worse. I suppose that is "evidence", but evidence to support the opposite stance. Seems rather silly.

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02-09-2013, 11:22 PM
  #536
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Originally Posted by taylord22 View Post
I thought it was partially Perron's fault...he was outgunned by 2men and retained the puck (somewhat) and then even when he was surrounded by 4, he thought he could win the battle vs. sending it around the boards. I liked his game for the most part tonight, but that was a mental gaffe

Does anybody else feel like Polak deserves to be the next player to take a seat?! Hurts saying it, but his play has been poor to say the least...he got benched at the end of the game, correct?
I dont think Perron being aggressive in the o-zone had any affect on the fact that Elliot let it a weak goal unless you believe that the Ducks were never allowed to have a shot on goal.

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02-09-2013, 11:22 PM
  #537
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
Yeah but I'd just reply that "numbers against the numbers" being 5-goal games isn't really useful analysis. It's just a random slice. For instance I could point out that in actuality Halak lost the Blues MORE games last year at the outset than Elliott has lost them this year at the outset. He's been brutal in 3 straight games but Halak lost them more than that to start last year. So that would be a random slice of data that isn't fair either, though I'd argue it's more fair than an arbitrary 5 goal standard.

Honestly my main reason for bringing it up is to point out that each of our goalies has now been awful to start a season and it cost the Blues games. Elliott's poor play has cost the Blues games, Halak's poor play cost them even more games early on last year. Yet there wasn't all this "Halak you POS" back then. It's a valid issue to bring up, that our fan base has different standards to which each goalie is held. Seems unfair to me.
More bandwagoners this season, that's all...

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02-09-2013, 11:23 PM
  #538
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I still believe we have 2 b rated goalies. Neither are the Jesus on ice to rob others allowing for a stronger offend nd weaker defense. I was at the game tonight and there is a lot of offensive power. Much more pinching forward than hanging back. Even jackman.. a stay at home defenseman is cruising forward a lot more. Neither halak nor Elliott can function with a weakened defense. They are average goalies.

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02-09-2013, 11:23 PM
  #539
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Originally Posted by MattyMo35 View Post
I never said "you gotta be ****ing kidding me". I'm not sure who said that, but it wasn't me. You bring up numbers to show that Jaro played just as poorly at the beginning of last season, when in reality every number you bring up about Jaro, Elliott has managed to be worse. I suppose that is "evidence", but evidence to support the opposite stance. Seems rather silly.
I guess the point that Elliott has more wins over the last 7 games than Halak did in his first 7 games is moot...

Halak had 1 5 goal game. And 2 4 goal ones.

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02-09-2013, 11:24 PM
  #540
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Originally Posted by sbet1998 View Post
I dont think Perron being aggressive in the o-zone had any affect on the fact that Elliot let it a weak goal unless you believe that the Ducks were never allowed to have a shot on goal.
If Perron got the puck in deep like he was suppose to, then there would not have been a goal.

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02-09-2013, 11:24 PM
  #541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastonBlues22 View Post
I don't think there's any question that Elliott is a better goaltender than he's looked to start this season, so talking about him like this is his true talent level isn't going to lead to a very productive discussion.

Did he play anywhere during the lockout? He looks incredibly rusty to me from a technical standpoint, and those issues are being compounded by shaken confidence as the number of poor performances piles up.

The way the team is playing around him sure isn't helping. Blown assignments galore, with much worse puck pursuit/pressure and gap control than I expected to see. This team used to consistently own the middle of the ice, hound teams off the puck on the back-check in transition, and outnumber teams at the point of attack. Where did that team go?
A-men.

[Elliott didn't play during the lockout, and basically neither did Halak.]

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02-09-2013, 11:28 PM
  #542
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
That's the argument though, people saying Elliott is way worse than Halal at the beginning of last season.

It's like arguing who's the taller midget.
I havent made any such argument. Ive only stated that Elliot's been letting in weak goals and has been worse than Halak THIS YEAR. Last year the team was just outplayed until Hitch came on the scene.

We might agree, because Im trying to get people to stop trying to compare the two and their starts over the last 2 seasons. It doesnt make sense. Up until Elliot let in the Ryan goal, I was thinking the same thing as you and p9's. But, my common sense kicked in over my fandom or last years stats.

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02-09-2013, 11:29 PM
  #543
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5 goals and 4 shootout goals. Blues are lucky they got a point

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02-09-2013, 11:30 PM
  #544
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
A-men.

[Elliott didn't play during the lockout, and basically neither did Halak.]
I think that was a bad move by both. I wasn't happy about that in the off season and I still am not.

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02-09-2013, 11:30 PM
  #545
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
If Perron got the puck in deep like he was suppose to, then there would not have been a goal.
So the Blues goaltenders are never supposed to face a shot against? I dont get your POV. It wasnt even close to being a dangerous scoring chance.

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02-09-2013, 11:31 PM
  #546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyMo35 View Post
I never said "you gotta be ****ing kidding me". I'm not sure who said that, but it wasn't me. You bring up numbers to show that Jaro played just as poorly at the beginning of last season, when in reality every number you bring up about Jaro, Elliott has managed to be worse. I suppose that is "evidence", but evidence to support the opposite stance. Seems rather silly.
If you look at my reply, I was replying to that specific challenge. I made a statement, the statement was received with incredulity, I replied with facts to show that my statement had merit. Pretty straightforward. I don't know what you're saying about the evidence proving the opposite, and yes that does seem rather silly.

The sole debate THE SOLE DEBATE I'm having is that while I agree with everyone that Elliott is turning Blues wins into losses and we're all mad (grrrrrrr, right?) about this and berating him and piling on etc., Halak was ALSO costing the Blues wins last year. He was turning wins into losses. Had Halak not been repeatedly letting in softies every one of those games the Blues would have won games that they wound up losing. This is all true. It happened. I have no freaking idea why you somehow think reminding people of Halak's performance in a bunch of those games is actually evidence that proves the contrary (that he wasn't costing them games?), but god speed.

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02-09-2013, 11:32 PM
  #547
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Originally Posted by BigB View Post
I still believe we have 2 b rated goalies. Neither are the Jesus on ice to rob others allowing for a stronger offend nd weaker defense. I was at the game tonight and there is a lot of offensive power. Much more pinching forward than hanging back. Even jackman.. a stay at home defenseman is cruising forward a lot more. Neither halak nor Elliott can function with a weakened defense. They are average goalies.
I was not terribly happy when we traded Eller for Halak. Hoping we would end up with a better goalie, though not sure who. Not a bad trade, but i didn't think Halak was going to be good enough to take us to the promised land. Now I am just hoping I was wrong.

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02-09-2013, 11:32 PM
  #548
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In a completely random direction, the Blues will bring up Porter with Langs going on IR, right? I wonder what kind of role he will play.

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02-09-2013, 11:36 PM
  #549
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So the Blues goaltenders are never supposed to face a shot against? I dont get your POV. It wasnt even close to being a dangerous scoring chance.
Point is a player's mistake led to a chance that ended in a soft goal. Elliott AND Perron were both at fault.

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02-09-2013, 11:40 PM
  #550
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I havent made any such argument. Ive only stated that Elliot's been letting in weak goals and has been worse than Halak THIS YEAR. Last year the team was just outplayed until Hitch came on the scene.

We might agree, because Im trying to get people to stop trying to compare the two and their starts over the last 2 seasons. It doesnt make sense. Up until Elliot let in the Ryan goal, I was thinking the same thing as you and p9's. But, my common sense kicked in over my fandom or last years stats.
In the first five games of last year, the Blues outskated and heavily outshot Nashville, Dallas and Anaheim and lost all three games because of soft goals allowed by Halak. Halak had a meltdown game (very much like the one Elliott had tonight) in LA in the sixth game and the Blues were never in the contest.

Meanwhile, only this Anaheim game in the recent three game dismal stretch do I think the Blues, in spite of their flaws, deserved to win the game. Elliott was terrible against Nashville and Detroit too but he didn't turn wins into losses, he turned losses into blowouts.

Nobody's defending Elliott. But it's very fair to compare how our fans reacted to each guy. I do think that what's different year to year is expectations. So maybe there's more loaded anger when the raised expectations aren't met.

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