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Physical presence up front....Please

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Old
07-05-2006, 09:01 PM
  #26
dedalus
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Originally Posted by nyrmessier011 View Post
Exactly. To me atleast, this is more of a concern than our offensive physicality.
I see the forward problem as more critical. We know Kaspar will get 18:00/night. I'm guessing Ward will be getting 16-17:00. And Tyutin will play tough in the "Weight-Recchi-Langenbrunner" mold. That element IS completely lacking in the top six.

If the price is right to acquire one, it's worth getting one. On the other hand this remains a rebuilding team. If they don't have the toughness to compete on the top two lines, so be it. They'll lose games (and playoff series) because of it, but rebuilding teams lose games and playoff series because they're missing elements. That's the nature of a rebuild.

The skill/toughness combination may be coming through the ranks, and if it's not, it can be acquired when the team is closer to legit contention.

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07-05-2006, 09:40 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
I see the forward problem as more critical. We know Kaspar will get 18:00/night. I'm guessing Ward will be getting 16-17:00. And Tyutin will play tough in the "Weight-Recchi-Langenbrunner" mold. That element IS completely lacking in the top six.

If the price is right to acquire one, it's worth getting one. On the other hand this remains a rebuilding team. If they don't have the toughness to compete on the top two lines, so be it. They'll lose games (and playoff series) because of it, but rebuilding teams lose games and playoff series because they're missing elements. That's the nature of a rebuild.

The skill/toughness combination may be coming through the ranks, and if it's not, it can be acquired when the team is closer to legit contention.
I think you completely nailed it here, Dedalus.

I understand the complaint (and it's one of the reasons I actually wouldn't mind Shanny on a 1-2 year deal), but those who are complaining - what do you suggest we do about it?

As I see it, we've got to let the team continue to develop - hopefully the power forward comes from the minors (c'mon Hugh, time to start making strides!). If he doesn't, well then when you've got all the other pieces, you trade for that last piece.

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07-06-2006, 12:22 AM
  #28
Larry Melnyk
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BTW, one guy who fits my idea perfectly (and is also young) is Mark Bell who just filed for arbitration from Chicago...Hope he wins and its' too rich for Wirtz and somehow the Rangers can come up with a deal..I know he's no Shane Doan, but he has a good combo of skill, attitude, size and toughness and can play on the top 6

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07-06-2006, 12:36 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangerFan View Post
As I see it, we've got to let the team continue to develop - hopefully the power forward comes from the minors (c'mon Hugh, time to start making strides!). If he doesn't, well then when you've got all the other pieces, you trade for that last piece.
Getting all the other pieces isn't going to be easy either.

Other than Staal and Montoya (which some people would debate), there are few blue chip prospects in the Rangers organization. Now don't get me wrong, obviously players can develop and I personally am high on Korpikoski and guys like Dubinsky, Sauer and Ryan but there aren't players who impartial observers would point to as the sniper of the future or that future #1 center.

The Rangers best prospects probably won't be key contributors for another 3 or 4 years, at the earliest. By that time, most of the current Rangers key contributors like Jagr, Nylander, Kasparaitis and Malik will be past their current contracts. Straka was already mulling over going back to Europe and this upcoming season is probably his last. The problem the Rangers face is that they've got older players and mostly younger prospects who haven't even sniffed the NHL. Prucha, Tyutin and Rachunek (maybe) are basically it as far as young NHL talent with bigger upside goes. Guys like D. Moore and Hollweg aren't going to become top 6 talents.

I have to think the Rangers are looking at being able to trade for a younger RFA who might change teams because of an arbitration award or holdout. If not, it will be something I'm sure they'll be looking for in the coming season or two. Of course, there's always next season's crop of younger UFA's.

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07-06-2006, 02:17 AM
  #30
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Finese can take you through the regular season since hitting in many games is light. But even Detroit, a more talented team than the Rangers got bumped out (it would have helped to have a competent goalie). The Oilers in their winning games were getting 30 hits a game. Carolina in the seventh game made a fantastic 48 hits.

The Rangers just rope-a-dope most of the time and hope the whistle-happy young referees will help them out with a lot of penalties. In the playoffs the experienced referees take over as they go along, and the cheap calls get much fewer. You have to play the game.

Simon has been used alongside Iginla. Compared to the other blank shooters the Rangers fielded in the playoffs, he wouldn't hurt. And then there's a bargain-basement Lindros, at least as long as he lasts. Jagr once talked about looking forward to playing with him.

The suggestion of playing Hollweg on the first line is from Coaching 101. In Rangers' history Hadfield, thought to be just a goon, was put alongside Ratelle and Gilbert and developed over several years into an all-star. Renney does not mix and match, but if he did, the lack of toughness would not be such an acute weakness.

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07-06-2006, 02:36 AM
  #31
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I wouldn't mind one of Peca, Shanahan or Simon...
Too bad there are no younger physical players...

I know...Eric Daze...

Just Kidding.

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07-06-2006, 02:38 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Unseenpunk View Post
I wouldn't mind one of Peca, Shanahan or Simon...
Too bad there are no younger physical players...

I know...Eric Daze...

Just Kidding.
Isbister??

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07-06-2006, 02:46 AM
  #33
CM Lundqvist
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Isbister??
He's too inconsistent. Some nights, he plays like the dominant power forward he could have been. Other nights, he could play with a dozen eggs in his pockets and not break a single one.

He's a real crapshoot.

As for Daze, I'm convinced that he got into the NHL and put up good numbers so he can spend his time on the injured list cashing in his checks... Not really, but you get the point. He's a walking injury waiting to happen.

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07-06-2006, 02:49 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by ivrydov View Post
The suggestion of playing Hollweg on the first line is from Coaching 101. In Rangers' history Hadfield, thought to be just a goon, was put alongside Ratelle and Gilbert and developed over several years into an all-star. Renney does not mix and match, but if he did, the lack of toughness would not be such an acute weakness.
Hadfield was never thought to be a goon, always had the potential to do some damage.

People just never looked at him as a guy who would score as much as he eventually did. It's a case of scouts not seeing how high a ceiling a certain player has.

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07-06-2006, 02:53 AM
  #35
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Any thoughts on acquiring Simon and Petrovicky and tossing them onto line 1 or 2, not only do I feel they can skate and help us out effectively by going to the front of the net, but they'll win the puck back and serve as protection for our skilled guys right on the same line with them

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07-06-2006, 03:03 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
Jeez, after reading this thread you would think power fowards are a dime a dozen and the rangers are just avoiding them....

Do the Rangers NEED a physical presence up front? Probably but not at the price it is going to cost the Rangers unless they want to sign Shanahan.

Lets not forget the Rangers had a 100 points last year. The Rangers do have physical players on the bottom two lines. If Renney wanted to in a game situation he could mix things up and have a guy like Hollweg skate with Jagr and Nylander. This is a pressing need for this team..
Good take from you. Others make their points as well.

I totally agree this has to be addressed, but unfortunately this problem will take a little time to deal with. Players like Dubinsky, G. Moore, Korpikosky, Dupont etc. have the bigger frame and fill this need, but will need more time to develop and fill out even more.

In two years your bottom six Rangers forwards could be any combination of

Dubinsky C 6-1 215+
G. Moore RW 6-1 220+
Korps LW 6-1 190+
Dupont C/LW 6-2 200+
Hollweg C/LW 5-11 210+
Jessiman RW 6-6 220+
Falardeau RW 6-4 215
Bahensky RW 6-2 195
Graham C 6-6 220+

I'll endure the relatively short term frustration in hopes of seeing some of these kids play for the Rangers. Those top three alone could form an extremely effective 3rd line.

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07-06-2006, 03:20 AM
  #37
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Why In Gods Name Would U Want Dingman?

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07-06-2006, 03:31 AM
  #38
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I think Grier would have been a great signing, but only at two years though. I would have gave him the same money SJ gave at less years.

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07-06-2006, 09:23 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
Good take from you. Others make their points as well.

I totally agree this has to be addressed, but unfortunately this problem will take a little time to deal with. Players like Dubinsky, G. Moore, Korpikosky, Dupont etc. have the bigger frame and fill this need, but will need more time to develop and fill out even more.

In two years your bottom six Rangers forwards could be any combination of

Dubinsky C 6-1 215+
G. Moore RW 6-1 220+
Korps LW 6-1 190+
Dupont C/LW 6-2 200+
Hollweg C/LW 5-11 210+
Jessiman RW 6-6 220+
Falardeau RW 6-4 215
Bahensky RW 6-2 195
Graham C 6-6 220+

I'll endure the relatively short term frustration in hopes of seeing some of these kids play for the Rangers. Those top three alone could form an extremely effective 3rd line.
Or some of these players could be the Rangers top six (Dubinsky, Jessiman, Graham Korps)

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07-06-2006, 10:19 AM
  #40
dedalus
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Originally Posted by RangersFan View Post
I would have gave him the same money SJ gave at less years.
Errr ... If San Jose and New York were offering equal money, why would Grier settle for fewer years in New York?

If you want fewer years, you'll need to offer more dollars.

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07-06-2006, 10:20 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by CJB View Post
Or some of these players could be the Rangers top six (Dubinsky, Jessiman, Graham Korps)
Good lord! If two of that collection don't make the top 6, the team is a good ways toward being screwed.

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07-06-2006, 10:27 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by ivrydov View Post
And then there's a bargain-basement Lindros, at least as long as he lasts. Jagr once talked about looking forward to playing with him.
Ugh, been there done that. Does not play anywhere near his size due to all the concussions. He would most likely be out hit by Prucha. He's a guy from the past that should be left there. Its too bad we missed out on a guy like Barnaby he would have been a nice fit. I also think Shanahan can help out and fill the void in a one year role, however eventually we are going to need to either trade for or sign a younger power foward unless we get lucky and someone like Jessiman develops.

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Old
07-06-2006, 12:03 PM
  #43
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Why In Gods Name Would U Want Dingman?

In case they don't feel Orr is NHL ready and want him to play in Hartford a little, he'd be the perfect 4th liner

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Old
07-06-2006, 12:05 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
Good take from you. Others make their points as well.

I totally agree this has to be addressed, but unfortunately this problem will take a little time to deal with. Players like Dubinsky, G. Moore, Korpikosky, Dupont etc. have the bigger frame and fill this need, but will need more time to develop and fill out even more.

In two years your bottom six Rangers forwards could be any combination of

Dubinsky C 6-1 215+
G. Moore RW 6-1 220+
Korps LW 6-1 190+
Dupont C/LW 6-2 200+
Hollweg C/LW 5-11 210+
Jessiman RW 6-6 220+
Falardeau RW 6-4 215
Bahensky RW 6-2 195
Graham C 6-6 220+

I'll endure the relatively short term frustration in hopes of seeing some of these kids play for the Rangers. Those top three alone could form an extremely effective 3rd line.

Well I'd love to see it, only problem is the only ones I am familiar with are Hugh, Hollweg, and Greg Moore. Mind filling me on the others style of play?

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07-06-2006, 01:13 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
is a semblance of what it took to win the Cup. Watching the finals made me realize that the Rangers aren't close. They would not be able to compete in those games, which were fast paced, and physical. The 'Canes may not be overly physical up front, but Brindy, Recchi, Weight, and others do not shy away and will get their noses dirty. In Edmonton, you had guys like Smyth, Torres, Stoll and others who also were up to the physical play. Then you watch the Rangers play the Devils, who had guys like Gionta, Gomez, Elias and Langenbrunner playing physical. It's not the Laroque or Simon the Rangers are in need of, it's these other guys who will go in and bang a guy to come away with the puck, or have them cough it up. After defenses are done looking out for Jagr, they really don't feel the pressure from the Rangers skilled forwards. Prucha's willing, but he hits and bounces off. This is an element this team lacks.
True. I don't know why so many people believe that the Rangers need to add goon-type players to increase their toughness. That's not the type of physicality they need. Guys like Laraque and Dingman were farely useless in the old NHL and they're even more of a waste today. Dingman had some value in the playoffs in 2004 because he played a good grinding game that was responsible on the 4th line for Tampa Bay with Cibak and Roy, but hasn't been an important player since. Sure Laraque wins every fight but there's no fighting when it counts in the playoffs and Laraque isn't a good player. Plus guys like that only play a few minutes a game.

Look at the Rangers Cup team from 94. Messier, Graves, Larmer, Anderson, Matteau, Tikkanen, Nemchinov, Noonan. These guys could score goals and play a rough and tumble game. These players were multi-dimensional. When these guys were on the ice, opponents knew they were a threat to score, and when they weren't scoring, they were checking the crap out of them. The Rangers team today has all their skill guys with no grit (Jagr, Nylander and the Czechs) on one side and all their no-offense grit guys (Ortmeyer, Moore, Hollweg, Betts) on the other side. The only player who comes close to combining the two aspects is Prucha, but like Fletch said he just bounces off the larger players. The Rangers will be hard pressed to find any type of success in the playoffs unless their skilled forwards start playing a more aggressive, in-your-face type of game and start paying the physical price of winning in the playoffs. If they're not willing to do that, the Rangers don't need them.

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07-06-2006, 01:31 PM
  #46
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The Rangers will be hard pressed to find any type of success in the playoffs unless their skilled forwards start playing a more aggressive, in-your-face type of game and start paying the physical price of winning in the playoffs. If they're not willing to do that, the Rangers don't need them.
Then the team should start seeking buyers for Nylander, Straka, and Jagr. All are 33+ years of age and none are going to change the way they play at this point in their careers. Cullen should be moved, too, because he's not going to play that type of game either.

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07-06-2006, 01:57 PM
  #47
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Then the team should start seeking buyers for Nylander, Straka, and Jagr. All are 33+ years of age and none are going to change the way they play at this point in their careers. Cullen should be moved, too, because he's not going to play that type of game either.
I'm all for that..But seriously, it's all about balance in my book..we need the skill but we also need the physical presence on the top 6...Although I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that it can still happen with a UFA/RFA/trade, It doesn't look like we will achieve it this year if the extent of our grit is Matt CUllen..Losing Nylander and Straka next year (isn't that Jagr's last contract year?) will hopefully make it more doable..

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07-06-2006, 02:30 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
Then the team should start seeking buyers for Nylander, Straka, and Jagr. All are 33+ years of age and none are going to change the way they play at this point in their careers. Cullen should be moved, too, because he's not going to play that type of game either.
I'd keep one or two of them. You can have some non-physical forwards, but not as many as the Rangers have now.

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07-06-2006, 02:42 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
Errr ... If San Jose and New York were offering equal money, why would Grier settle for fewer years in New York?

If you want fewer years, you'll need to offer more dollars.
the same money as in the total contract, but for 2 instead of 3 so he ends up making more per year.

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07-06-2006, 03:15 PM
  #50
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the same money as in the total contract, but for 2 instead of 3 so he ends up making more per year.
Ahh, I see.

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