HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Gretzky the pure athlete

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-09-2013, 05:26 PM
  #51
Cloned
Dial M for Michelle
 
Cloned's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 22,643
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ot92s View Post
i don't believe anybody has ever dangled "better" than wayne gretzky. No player has had a "better" slap shot than wayne gretzky.

very very few players were better in-game skaters than wayne gretzky.

jump on youtube and re-watch some old games, or if you're studying him visually for the first time, you are in for one hell of a treat.

he is the best puck mover in the history of the game, he had the hands to catch virtually every pass that came near his orbit, probably the most accurate slap shot ever, a backhand/wrist shot/slap shot repertoire with such coordination it basically broke the era's goalies down so badly it required a revolution in technique to stop the bleeding. And nobody in the world has yet to approach his skill level when using saucer passes. 30 years later his game is still from the future.

seriously....he was one of the greatest athletes of all time. the lungs, the balance, his hands, his quickness, his mind, his competitiveness...he had everything aside from a massive frame.
Pretty much this.

It was ridiculous how accurate his slap shot was. He would wind up, pick a spot, and it would be there. Or if the goalie moved, he would change his mind and deke or pass. His greatest physical gifts - endurance, agility and acceleration - were legendary.

__________________

Sig AND X-mas avatar courtesy of The Nemesis

"Pull yourself together!" - Solid Snake to Otacon, multiple times in the series
Cloned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2013, 08:33 PM
  #52
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,982
vCash: 887
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloned View Post
Pretty much this.

It was ridiculous how accurate his slap shot was. He would wind up, pick a spot, and it would be there. Or if the goalie moved, he would change his mind and deke or pass.
So what happened when the goalies and perhaps defensive coaching got better around 1990? His shot just could'nt beat it?

Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2013, 12:05 AM
  #53
Cloned
Dial M for Michelle
 
Cloned's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 22,643
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
So what happened when the goalies and perhaps defensive coaching got better around 1990? His shot just could'nt beat it?
No one's saying he didn't benefit from his era. It was high scoring undoubtedly. But his dominance over his peers in that era is incomparable. Him (and the Oilers) forced the game to change.

I won't rehash the Gretzky arguments here, as this thread isn't about that. I'll just say that his physical attributes were underrated - a product of the almost mythical status his playmaking and anticipation had gained.

Cloned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2013, 01:49 AM
  #54
shazariahl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,621
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
So what happened when the goalies and perhaps defensive coaching got better around 1990? His shot just could'nt beat it?
I don't understand this arguement - goaltending wasn't really any different in 1990 than it was in 1988 or 87. Gretzky was just getting old, which happens to everyone. He already has more 60+, 70+, 80+ goal seasons than anyone else, the only 90+ goal season ever, is tied with Bossy for the most 50+ goal seasons, and has the most 40+ goal seasons. Gretzky's goalscoring was on the decline - that happens to everyone. This idea that Gretzky was somehow the only player affected by changes in goaltending (which is what people seem to imply when they make these types of statements) is absurd. He was just getting older.

Most goalscorers decline faster than other positions, which is evidenced by Gretzky's numerous records I already mentioned above. Its even further evidenced by a breakdown of the top goalscoring seasons of all time. Last I saw, only about 12% of them were from players past 28 yrs of age. There's never been a single 50 goal scorer past the age of 35. Ever. Gretzky peaked early and declined around when he should have - after posting 9 seasons with 50+ goals. To think anyone would question his longevity as a goal scorer is rather surprising.

shazariahl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2013, 02:12 AM
  #55
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,375
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
goaltending wasn't really any different in 1990 than it was in 1988 or 87.
Spot on.

Average save percentage:

1987-88 - 87.9%
1988-89 - 88.1%
1989-90 - 88.2%
1990-91 - 88.7%
1991-92 - 88.9%
1992-93 - 88.6%

In fact, it didn't creep over 90% for good until 1996-97

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2013, 04:56 AM
  #56
ot92s
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 741
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
So what happened when the goalies and perhaps defensive coaching got better around 1990? His shot just could'nt beat it?
ice time & and mileage. everyone knew what was going on at the time.

he logged insane minutes early in his career. he began to tone that down.

not to mention, after a decade a seeing him play the goalies found a way to keep him under a 20% shooting percentage.

ot92s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2013, 06:53 AM
  #57
JustOneB4IDie
Everyone Overpayment
 
JustOneB4IDie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: St. Louis MO
Country: United States
Posts: 3,487
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
The simple thing is he was the smartest player to ever play the game. He had a 6th sense and that was anticipation. He had better vision than anyone.
This... is why #99 was "The Great One"

JustOneB4IDie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2013, 01:32 PM
  #58
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,493
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
So what happened when the goalies and perhaps defensive coaching got better around 1990? His shot just could'nt beat it?
He was still a 40 goal scorer up until 1994 (38 goals). Not to mention the added emphasis on playmaking and his back started by the Suter crosscheck. I will also point out that it is extremely difficult to maintain season after season of elite goal scoring prowess. Players in their 30s just don't score goals like they used to. All of them. Look at Ovechkin. He's 27 years old and we can agree he peaked as a goal scorer, already. Stamkos is 22 but believe me he will be faced with that same problem in 5-6 years. Scoring goals is the hardest thing in the game to do and everyone looks to defend that first and foremost. Even the all-time greats can't maintain it forever.

You asked how he may have done had his career started in 1990? Fine, I think. Mario was younger in the 1990s and it didn't affect is goal scoring (69 goals in 60 games, 69 goals in 70 games and 35 goals in 43 games as a well rested 35 year old).

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2013, 03:11 PM
  #59
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,982
vCash: 887
Quote:
Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
I don't understand this arguement - goaltending wasn't really any different in 1990 than it was in 1988 or 87. Gretzky was just getting old, which happens to everyone. He already has more 60+, 70+, 80+ goal seasons than anyone else, the only 90+ goal season ever, is tied with Bossy for the most 50+ goal seasons, and has the most 40+ goal seasons. Gretzky's goalscoring was on the decline - that happens to everyone. This idea that Gretzky was somehow the only player affected by changes in goaltending (which is what people seem to imply when they make these types of statements) is absurd. He was just getting older.
Where have i implied that he was the only player affected by this? Many players that lacked a good combination of speed and strenght suffered around 1990, and by that i do mean around 1990 not between 1987 and 1990 alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil
You asked how he may have done had his career started in 1990? Fine, I think. Mario was younger in the 1990s and it didn't affect is goal scoring (69 goals in 60 games, 69 goals in 70 games and 35 goals in 43 games as a well rested 35 year old).
Spot on there. I feel that Gretzky lost his otherworldly goal scoring numbers waaay to early for it be only becouse age and certianly becouse of the Suter thing becouse he was allready in a steady decline goal scoring wise before that.

Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2013, 03:41 PM
  #60
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,375
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Where have i implied that he was the only player affected by this? Many players that lacked a good combination of speed and strenght suffered around 1990, and by that i do mean around 1990 not between 1987 and 1990 alone.


Spot on there. I feel that Gretzky lost his otherworldly goal scoring numbers waaay to early for it be only becouse age and certianly becouse of the Suter thing becouse he was allready in a steady decline goal scoring wise before that.
Gretzky had his last 50+ goal season at age 28. As a number of others have pointed out that's an age where a player NORMALLY sees a permenant decline in his goal scoring. The fact that you're trying to twist it into something else suggests an agenda as you're clearly holding something against Gretzky that gets held against no other player.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2013, 04:55 PM
  #61
revolverjgw
Registered User
 
revolverjgw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,291
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Gretzky had his last 50+ goal season at age 28. As a number of others have pointed out that's an age where a player NORMALLY sees a permenant decline in his goal scoring. The fact that you're trying to twist it into something else suggests an agenda as you're clearly holding something against Gretzky that gets held against no other player.
There IS something to it, though. You look at the goal scoring arcs of every other of the top career goal scorers, you won't find another that dropped anywhere near as much as Gretzky, who was done as a great scorer by 28. It's even more jarring because he was so much more dominant than the rest of them at his peak. Everybody else carried on as top scorers into the their 30s, even late 30s. Even Yzerman, the only other guy that never hit the top 10 again after 28, was a goal away from being a top 10 scorer at 35 after changing his game drastically.

It can not simply be explained away by injury and natural decline, not when Gretzky is such a big outlier here, stick out like a sore thumb as THE only guy with such an extreme swing as the style of the game changed so rapidly. This affected peers like Messier and even Gartner less (better goal scoring skillsets for a more modern game, really, less reliant on a slapshot as the key in their shot selection). Lots of these guys got injured. They all played tons of hockey, most of them more physically demanding brands of hockey.


Last edited by revolverjgw: 02-10-2013 at 05:07 PM.
revolverjgw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2013, 05:06 PM
  #62
Yamaguchi*
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 761
vCash: 500
I would love to see Wayne Gretzky as a boxer.


Gretzky vs Mike Tyson would be an incredible show!

Yamaguchi* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2013, 05:10 PM
  #63
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,375
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
There IS something to it, though. You look at the goal scoring arcs of every other of the top career goal scorers, you won't find another that dropped anywhere near as much as Gretzky, who was done as a great scorer by 28. It's even more jarring because he was so much more dominant than the rest of them at his peak. Everybody else carried on as top scorers into the their 30s, even late 30s. Even Yzerman was damn near a top 10 scorer at 35 after changing his game drastically.

It can not simply be explained away by injury and natural decline, not when Gretzky is such a big outlier here, stick out like a sore thumb with such an extreme swing as the style of the game changed so rapidly. This affected peers like Messier and even Gartner less (better goal scoring skillsets for a more modern game, really, less reliant on a slapshot as the key in their shot selection). Lots of these guys got injured. They all played tons of hockey, most of them more physically demanding brands of hockey.
And Gretzky had four more seasons with 30+ goals afterwards with the only non-qualifier in that five year stretch being his injury plagued 1992-93 season. He put up 38 goals in his 16th pro season. I'm sorry, but even outliers get old. Tell me, how many 50 goal seasons did Messier and Gartner put after age 30? I'll wait.....

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2013, 05:52 PM
  #64
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,982
vCash: 887
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Gretzky had his last 50+ goal season at age 28. As a number of others have pointed out that's an age where a player NORMALLY sees a permenant decline in his goal scoring. The fact that you're trying to twist it into something else suggests an agenda as you're clearly holding something against Gretzky that gets held against no other player.
You act like 50 goals was somewhere near how many he scored at most. Fact is he scored over a goal a game from ages 20-24. The season directly after that he put up that assist record so that is defendable, but then still at age 25, his goalscoring from that on sunk pretty dramaticly considering the context. I do find it odd, it's hard to look at his career stats and not get the feeling that the game somewhat caught up to him, although he still was dominant of course. Maybe another factor was lesser linemates in Los Angeles as well, but it started before that so if that is the case it cant be the complete answer.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 02-10-2013 at 05:58 PM.
Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2013, 06:01 PM
  #65
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,375
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
You act like 50 goals was somewhere near how many he scored at most. Fact is he scored over a goal a game from ages 20-24. The season directly after that he put up that assist record so that is defendable, but then still at age 25, his goalscoring from that on sunk pretty dramaticly considering the context. I do find it odd, it's hard to look at his career stats and not get the feeling that the game somewhat caught up to him, although he still was dominant of course.
What? Because he was an outlier the same things that apply to everyone else don't apply to him? He was supposed to pick up 92 goals every season? The bottom line is the peak for goal scoring is a relatively narrow window in just about every player's career. It doesn't make any difference whether that peak was "God-like" like Gretzky's was or more "human" like, say, a Trottier.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2013, 08:01 PM
  #66
shazariahl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,621
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
There IS something to it, though. You look at the goal scoring arcs of every other of the top career goal scorers, you won't find another that dropped anywhere near as much as Gretzky, who was done as a great scorer by 28. It's even more jarring because he was so much more dominant than the rest of them at his peak. Everybody else carried on as top scorers into the their 30s, even late 30s. Even Yzerman, the only other guy that never hit the top 10 again after 28, was a goal away from being a top 10 scorer at 35 after changing his game drastically.

It can not simply be explained away by injury and natural decline, not when Gretzky is such a big outlier here, stick out like a sore thumb as THE only guy with such an extreme swing as the style of the game changed so rapidly. This affected peers like Messier and even Gartner less (better goal scoring skillsets for a more modern game, really, less reliant on a slapshot as the key in their shot selection). Lots of these guys got injured. They all played tons of hockey, most of them more physically demanding brands of hockey.
But Gretzky's decline began before the change in game really. I'm not saying that changes in the game didn't have an impact, but honestly... he already has the most 40+ goal seasons in history and is tied with Bossy for the most 50+ seasons. Was he just supposed to keep scoring 50+ goals a year until he retired? His longevity as a goal scorer is amazing IMO, but no one scores like that forever. Ovechkin is one of the greatest goalscorers I've ever seen at his peak, but his window of dominance was only 1/3 as long as Gretzky's.

shazariahl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2013, 08:45 PM
  #67
revolverjgw
Registered User
 
revolverjgw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,291
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
And Gretzky had four more seasons with 30+ goals afterwards with the only non-qualifier in that five year stretch being his injury plagued 1992-93 season. He put up 38 goals in his 16th pro season. I'm sorry, but even outliers get old. Tell me, how many 50 goal seasons did Messier and Gartner put after age 30? I'll wait.....
Stop using 50 goals as some sort of measuring stick. Times change. That's why I measure things in relative finishes, top 10s, etc. 35 goals in 2000 is worth a lot more than 35 in 1984. Brett Hull was still a top sniper in 2003 at 38 when he scored "only" 37 goals. That's less than Gretzky scored in 1994... but keep in mind Gretzky topped out there at 24th. He scored less than Bob Kudelski. Numbers without context aren't very useful.


Last edited by revolverjgw: 02-10-2013 at 08:51 PM.
revolverjgw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2013, 08:47 PM
  #68
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,375
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Stop using 50 goals as some sort of measuring stick.
I'll thank you not to tell me what to do. I'll use whatever measuring stick it pleases me to use and if you don't like it you can pound sand

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2013, 08:52 PM
  #69
revolverjgw
Registered User
 
revolverjgw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,291
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
I'll thank you not to tell me what to do. I'll use whatever measuring stick it pleases me to use and if you don't like it you can pound sand
You can do as you please. But your methodology tells a very statistically skewed story, just letting you know.

revolverjgw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2013, 08:39 AM
  #70
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 24,621
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Stop using 50 goals as some sort of measuring stick. Times change. That's why I measure things in relative finishes, top 10s, etc. 35 goals in 2000 is worth a lot more than 35 in 1984. Brett Hull was still a top sniper in 2003 at 38 when he scored "only" 37 goals. That's less than Gretzky scored in 1994... but keep in mind Gretzky topped out there at 24th. He scored less than Bob Kudelski. Numbers without context aren't very useful.
Totally agreed. Round figure milestones with nostalgia attached to them are arbitrary, lose context across generations/eras, and aren't nearly as useful for the purposes of comparison as ranking yearly production versus peers, imo. I mean, there's something to be said if there's only one guy "in the 50 goal club", or whatever, in any given year. But to look back from the end point and compare two guys (possibly from different eras) on the number of 50 goal seasons they each have loses a lot in translation/context.

League changes (the increased focus on calling penalties and increasing powerplay opportunities coming out of both of the last lockouts, for example) also skew the scoring environment, and give "abnormally" high chances to reach an arbitrary threshold that will be counted no differently in, say, 20 years time to those looking back without context. It'd be interesting to see (after this year, and maybe the next) if there are guys who appeared high up the scoring lists in '05/06 and(/or) '12/13 but weren't as productive before, in between, or afterward.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2013, 05:39 PM
  #71
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,493
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Spot on there. I feel that Gretzky lost his otherworldly goal scoring numbers waaay to early for it be only becouse age and certianly becouse of the Suter thing becouse he was allready in a steady decline goal scoring wise before that.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...order_by=goals

29 times it has happened in a single season where a player was 28 at the beginning of a 50 goal season. Maybe that sounds like a lot, but it isn't really when you consider the amount of 50 goal seasons in NHL history which are 191. Let's look at the names as well:
Phil Esposito - 4
Marcel Dionne - 3
Bobby Hull - 2
Dave Andreychuk - 2
Mario Lemieux - 2

The rest did it once: Brett Hull, Bossy, McDonald, Bure, Kehoe, Sakic, Jagr, Leach, Hadfield, Geoffrion, Hodge, Mullen, Bucyk, Bondra, Iginla, Pronovost

Let's analyze them for a second. Esposito had goal scoring seasons well above 50 but there's Dionne, Hull and Lemieux. All three are among the greatest goal scorers to ever play. You can argue two of them are the top 2. Andreychuk had his only two 50 goal seasons at a time when it was heavily influenced by Gilmour's prime years. Andreychuk was a 35-40 guy otherwise. Then there are the one timers. Brett Hull was a late bloomer and still only had one. Bossy had his back mess up on him. McDonald had a year that is a clear abberation in his career (66 goals) despite usually being good for 40-45. Kehoe, Pronovost, Mullen, Hadfield are others who had one year clearly better than any other, and only one year. Hadfield had the GAG line at its peak help him with that. Sakic and Jagr had an unusual year at that age, Geoffrion did it once and Bondra and Iginla had their final 50 goal season.

Now, here's the thing. None of these guys had a run of 51, 55, 92, 71, 87, 73, 52, 62, 40 and 54 before finally settling into a normal 40 goal year for a few years. Gretzky's goal scoring dropped more than anyone simply because he had further to fall. How in the world can you maintain a goal a game your whole career? You can't. Yet Gretzky was still getting two points a game as late as 1991 with a season that boasted 122 assists. I just find it arbitrary to knock his goal scoring when in reality this happens to the best of goal scorers (see Ovechkin) and there wasn't a sharp decline in his overall points until after 1991 when you could see the affect of his back injuries taking place.

I'm not sure what you wanted the man to do? Should he have put up 50-60 goal seasons into his mid 30s? I really think in many ways Gretzky has a career where you have to stop and say to yourself "What more could the man have done?" Don't you agree?

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2013, 06:58 PM
  #72
revolverjgw
Registered User
 
revolverjgw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,291
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Gretzky's goal scoring dropped more than anyone simply because he had further to fall. How in the world can you maintain a goal a game your whole career? You can't. Yet Gretzky was still getting two points a game as late as 1991 with a season that boasted 122 assists. I just find it arbitrary to knock his goal scoring when in reality this happens to the best of goal scorers (see Ovechkin) and there wasn't a sharp decline in his overall points until after 1991 when you could see the affect of his back injuries taking place.

I'm not sure what you wanted the man to do? Should he have put up 50-60 goal seasons into his mid 30s? I really think in many ways Gretzky has a career where you have to stop and say to yourself "What more could the man have done?" Don't you agree?
Again you're using raw totals, ignoring the huge changes in league-wide scoring that occurred throughout Gretzky's long era-spanning career, and it makes his dropoff look less severe than it was. I would suggest you stop thinking in terms of "50-60 goal seasons", or "he settled into a 40 goal man". Think about WHEN he settled into a 40 goal man and where he was relative to the rest of the league's goal scorers. Look at the other historical goal leaders during their post-prime years and how many goals they were scoring relative to the rest of the league. Don't just think about X-amount of goals, otherwise it makes it look like 33 year old Gretzky's 38 goals were better than 39 year old Hull's 37 goals, or 35 year old Yzerman's 35 goals, or 37 year old Sakic's 37 goals, or 34 year old Robitaille's 37 goals, or 36 year old Messier's 36 goals. Gretzky's 38 goal year is clearly the worst on there, at the youngest age (and he declined very steeply from there).

Farther to fall... well I don't see why it's logical to assume that the number one goal scorer of all-time must have the worst goal scoring resume of any of the top 13, and all but a couple of the rest of the top 25. I would expect the exact opposite. Am I to assume that because Stamkos has been dominating the goal race for a few years now, that he should logically be expected to be done as top scorer before he turns 30, and relegated to being top 25-40 AT BEST by 33? That's what you're asking me to accept, and I have a hard time doing so because that is almost unheard of when you look at the rest of the all-time goal leaders. With Stamos' shot, I expect Brett Hull-esque effectiveness into his 30s.

Don't jump the gun on Ovechkin's fall from grace just yet. He was still an elite sniper last year. He's a productive week away from having good totals right now. He's a trade away from being reinvigorated and dominating again. Even if he DOES crash and never again puts up great goal numbers, he'll be an extreme outlier in this regard, not the norm.

The usual rationalizations for this is that Gretzky played a lot, got older and had injuries, as if that kind of wear is exclusive to Gretzky (a guy that was an unphysical as could be). The simplest explanation, and the one that passes the eyetest for me when I see the types of goals he scored in his prime (admittedly I was too young too watch his prime but I've seen tons of full games) and the kind of player he was when he was older (I watched his entire 30+ career), is that Gretzky just didn't have the skillset required to keep up being a top scorer as he aged and the game changed. When it came to having a particular birthdate, Gretzky had characteristically perfect timing to maximize the skillset he did have.


Last edited by revolverjgw: 02-12-2013 at 07:08 PM.
revolverjgw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2013, 07:09 PM
  #73
Wizeman*
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,624
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Again you're using raw totals, ignoring the huge changes in league-wide scoring that occurred throughout Gretzky's long era-spanning career, and it makes his dropoff look less severe than it was. I would suggest you stop thinking in terms of "50-60 goal seasons", or "he settled into a 40 goal man". Think about WHEN he settled into a 40 goal man and where he was relative to the rest of the league's goal scorers. Look at the other historical goal leaders during their post-prime years and how many goals they were scoring relative to the rest of the league. Don't just think about X-amount of goals, otherwise it makes it look like 33 year old Gretzky's 38 goals were better than 39 year old Hull's 37 goals, or 35 year old Yzerman's 35 goals, or 37 year old Sakic's 37 goals, or 34 year old Robitaille's 37 goals. Gretzky's 38 goal year is clearly the worst on there, at the youngest age (and he declined very steeply from there).

Farther to fall... well I don't see why it's logical to assume that the number one goal scorer of all-time must have the worst goal scoring resume of any of the top 13, and all but a couple of the rest of the top 25. I would expect the exact opposite. Am I to assume that because Stamkos has been dominating the goal race for a few years now, that he should logically be expected to be done as top scorer before he turns 30, and relegated to being top 25 AT BEST by 33? That's what you're asking me to accept, and I have a hard time doing so because that is almost unheard of when you look at the rest of the all-time goal leaders.

Don't jump the gun on Ovechkin's fall from grace just yet. He was still an elite sniper last year. He's a productive week away from having good totals right now. He's a trade away from being reinvigorated and dominating again. Even if he DOES crash and never again puts up great goal numbers, he'll be an extreme outlier in this regard, not the norm.

The usual rationalizations for this is that Gretzky played a lot, got older and had injuries, as if that kind of wear is exclusive to Gretzky (a guy that was an unphysical as could be). The simplest explanation, and the one that passes the eyetest for me when I see the types of goals he scored in his prime (admittedly I was too young too watch his prime but I've seen tons of full games) and the kind of player he was when he was older (I watched his entire 30+ career), is that Gretzky just didn't have the skillset required to keep up being a top scorer as he aged and the game changed. When it came to having a particular birthdate, Gretzky had characteristically perfect timing to maximize the skillset he did have.
I am 46 years old.

I saw Wayne Gretzky as a 17 year old signing with the Indianapolis Racers in a league called the 'WHA' .

I saw gretzkys first game. I saw gretzky's first goal.

In fact, I didnt see it live, but I remember in the news at 11pm that Darryl Sittler had just scored 10 points . I was 10 at the time.

I have lived through every era. Every waking moment. Every episode from Mario refusing to put on his Penguins jersey at the draft , to a rookie Selanne throwing his glove in the air like he was ***** shooting.

I was at Pavel Bures' first NHL home game in Vancouver.

I was confounded the first day i laid eyes on these 'twin things' from Sweden.

I have seen every era since the Flyers won their last Stanley cup. I may not remember before expansion, but I would like to think I have a good feel for the game at this point.

I can assure you, that you do not have any accurate idea of how profound the effect Wayne Gretzky had on the game. You had to be there at the time. While Mario has had moments where he made his opponents look like even worse fools, as a whole Wayne Gretzky was so good he totally altered the way every position on the ice was played and even how many franchises there are today.

Your post reads like some sour grapes and heavy spin. You dont like Gretzky. I think anyone with half a brain can see though your bias pretty easily.

But dont think you know anything about the guy or his impact on the game because you 'googled' it or saw some replays from 30 years ago.

I was there. I saw it. He was even better than Orr. He was the greatest player to ever put on a uniform. And I pity that your generation has no answer to him and you dont get to experience how awesome it was to see someone dominate the sport like that.

Wizeman* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2013, 07:11 PM
  #74
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,375
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Again you're using raw totals, ignoring the huge changes in league-wide scoring that occurred throughout Gretzky's long era-spanning career, and it makes his dropoff look less severe than it was. I would suggest you stop thinking in terms of "50-60 goal seasons", or "he settled into a 40 goal man". Think about WHEN he settled into a 40 goal man and where he was relative to the rest of the league's goal scorers. Look at the other historical goal leaders during their post-prime years and how many goals they were scoring relative to the rest of the league. Don't just think about X-amount of goals, otherwise it makes it look like 33 year old Gretzky's 38 goals were better than 39 year old Hull's 37 goals, or 35 year old Yzerman's 35 goals, or 37 year old Sakic's 37 goals, or 34 year old Robitaille's 37 goals, or 36 year old Messier's 36 goals. Gretzky's 38 goal year is clearly the worst on there, at the youngest age (and he declined very steeply from there).

Farther to fall... well I don't see why it's logical to assume that the number one goal scorer of all-time must have the worst goal scoring resume of any of the top 13, and all but a couple of the rest of the top 25. I would expect the exact opposite. Am I to assume that because Stamkos has been dominating the goal race for a few years now, that he should logically be expected to be done as top scorer before he turns 30, and relegated to being top 25-40 AT BEST by 33? That's what you're asking me to accept, and I have a hard time doing so because that is almost unheard of when you look at the rest of the all-time goal leaders. With Stamos' shot, I expect Brett Hull-esque effectiveness into his 30s.

Don't jump the gun on Ovechkin's fall from grace just yet. He was still an elite sniper last year. He's a productive week away from having good totals right now. He's a trade away from being reinvigorated and dominating again. Even if he DOES crash and never again puts up great goal numbers, he'll be an extreme outlier in this regard, not the norm.

The usual rationalizations for this is that Gretzky played a lot, got older and had injuries, as if that kind of wear is exclusive to Gretzky (a guy that was an unphysical as could be). The simplest explanation, and the one that passes the eyetest for me when I see the types of goals he scored in his prime (admittedly I was too young too watch his prime but I've seen tons of full games) and the kind of player he was when he was older (I watched his entire 30+ career), is that Gretzky just didn't have the skillset required to keep up being a top scorer as he aged and the game changed. When it came to having a particular birthdate, Gretzky had characteristically perfect timing to maximize the skillset he did have.
Oh for the love of God.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2013, 07:19 PM
  #75
revolverjgw
Registered User
 
revolverjgw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,291
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post

Your post reads like some sour grapes and heavy spin. You dont like Gretzky. I think anyone with half a brain can see though your bias pretty easily.

.
I love him, I think he was the most exciting player to watch ever and I think he's the top hockey player ever. I always cite him as such here and always have.

I'm sorry you can't accept anything that doesn't perfectly jibe with your romantic image of him as the perfect player. I supply objective analysis, and in return you just give me fluff and hilariously offbase assumptions.

revolverjgw is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:27 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.