Plekanec - bluechip prospect and a 1st.
Markov - bluechip prospect and a 1st, maybe more. If Washington turns things around we should go after Kuznetsov or Forsberg.
Desharnais - A 2nd round draft pick.
Cole - A 2nd round draft pick, maybe a good prospect from a desperate team like Pittsburgh, maybe two 2nds.
Bourque - A 2nd round draft pick
Gionta - A 2nd round draft pick if we're lucky.
Moen - A decent prospect.
Pacioretty is a 1st line player, but he's not a 1st line anchor in my opinion.
Do you get what I mean?
I don't agree on trading Markov. His value is reduced due to his history, and his upside is massive. He could pull a Chelios and play effectively for the next 6 years.
And what exactly was the price for grabbing Bobby Ryan? It certainly wasn't a couple months of Souray. Burke was a huge Ryan fan and there was likely nothing we could've offered to get him. It's easy to say we should go after guys like Ryan and JVR but this isn't he 80s or 90s where veterans are more valued then top picks.
It's by now clear however that JVR was available. Flyers ended up dealing him for a mediocre young dman with shutdown ability.
I remember the rumors from 2009: Flyers wanted Komisarek and they wanted him bad, I think they were offering the Habs their choice of JVR, a 1st, or a third option that I can't remember. Gainey kept Komisarek because he wanted to make the almighty playoffs. We did make the playoffs, and Bruins swept us in 4 and we lost Komisarek to free agency a few months later.
You do realize rebuilding with top picks is not the only way to build a championship caliber team right
Other options to build a good team:
1) Sign Chara in the off-season.
2) Draft Pavel Datsyuk in the 7th round.
3) Trade Gomez for McDonagh and then use the savings to sign Gaborik.
I am not against using any of those unlikely options if the opportunity manifests itself.
ETA: You know how the Bruins were able to sign Zdeno Chara and Marc Savard? By selling off Joe Thornton, the same way fans on this board are against selling veterans. Cap space is one of the prime reasons for selling off veterans.
Last edited by DAChampion: 02-10-2013 at 02:00 AM.
It's by now clear however that JVR was available. Flyers ended up dealing him for a mediocre young dman with shutdown ability.
I remember the rumors from 2009: Flyers wanted Komisarek and they wanted him bad, I think they were offering the Habs their choice of JVR, a 1st, or a third option that I can't remember. Gainey kept Komisarek because he wanted to make the almighty playoffs. We did make the playoffs, and Bruins swept us in 4 and we lost Komisarek to free agency a few months later.
Just because he was traded several years later doesn't mean he was available then. In fact I would argue it was his lack of progression that was probably a major reason he was traded. Did you know his career high is 21 goals and 40pts? Another 6 years at 4.25 for those numbers and yeah I could see why he was traded for another young highly touted player that wasn't living up to his potential and had seemingly plateaued.
I can't say I remember the Komi/JVR rumors, how reputable were the sources? Do you have any links?
Right now though, Bergevin better hurry up. There's a flip side to your and my and others analysis that the Habs cup contention window is opening soon: it also means that the rebuilding window is closing soon. Once Galchenyuk, Tinordi, Beaulieu, etc become good players and once Gionta, Kaberle, etc have their cap hits cleared from the team the rebuilding window will be closed. We will be an 8th or 9th place team even if everything goes wrong.
We're running out of time to stack the deck, I think this season is it, it's now or never to get another top-5 pick and to sell some veterans for 1st rounders. If we don't do it now, we'll have to wait until the next rebuilding cycle in 2020 or so or probably beyond to compile a championship-caliber roster.
Precisely. We cannot afford to waste the prime of Price, Subban and Pax. This is my biggest worry. A lot of guys here don't realize that this is exactly why we need a short, sharp effective rebuild. Last year, and this year.
1) Sign Chara in the off-season.
2) Draft Pavel Datsyuk in the 7th round.
3) Trade Gomez for McDonagh and then use the savings to sign Gaborik.
I am not against using any of those unlikely options if the opportunity manifests itself.
ETA: You know how the Bruins were able to sign Zdeno Chara and Marc Savard? By selling off Joe Thornton, the same way fans on this board are against selling veterans. Cap space is one of the prime reasons for selling off veterans.
1) Sign Chara in the off-season.
2) Draft Pavel Datsyuk in the 7th round.
3) Trade Gomez for McDonagh and then use the savings to sign Gaborik.
I am not against using any of those unlikely options if the opportunity manifests itself.
ETA: You know how the Bruins were able to sign Zdeno Chara and Marc Savard? By selling off Joe Thornton, the same way fans on this board are against selling veterans. Cap space is one of the prime reasons for selling off veterans.
Good trades, good UFA signings, good drafting, and a little luck so in other words having a good GM. By the way you also need to be good at all those things even if you rebuild.
Just because he was traded several years later doesn't mean he was available then. In fact I would argue it was his lack of progression that was probably a major reason he was traded. Did you know his career high is 21 goals and 40pts? Another 6 years at 4.25 for those numbers and yeah I could see why he was traded for another young highly touted player that wasn't living up to his potential and had seemingly plateaued.
I can't say I remember the Komi/JVR rumors, how reputable were the sources? Do you have any links?
The google links now are all about Komi inuring JVR at practice.
Good trades, good UFA signings, good drafting, and a little luck so in other words having a good GM. By the way you also need to be good at all those things even if you rebuild.
Trades, UFA signings, drafting, are all important, but ultimately you should focus on the strategy with the greatest odds of success.
You have a better shot at drafting Jonathan Toews or Drew Doughty than you do to sign Zdeno Chara in the off-season.
But anyway, let's count:
4 of the 7 cap-era cup winners are first and foremost tank jobs (Carolina, Pittsburgh, Chicago, and Los Angeles).
A 5th (Detroit) was built off drafting Lidstrom in the 3rd round, Zetterberg in the 6th round and Datsyuk in the 7th round.
A 6th, Boston, was due to selling off veterans and using the cap space to clean up the UFA market.
ETA: I think Luca Sbisa was the third option for Komisarek.
1) Sign Chara in the off-season.
2) Draft Pavel Datsyuk in the 7th round.
3) Trade Gomez for McDonagh and then use the savings to sign Gaborik.
I am not against using any of those unlikely options if the opportunity manifests itself.
ETA: You know how the Bruins were able to sign Zdeno Chara and Marc Savard? By selling off Joe Thornton, the same way fans on this board are against selling veterans. Cap space is one of the prime reasons for selling off veterans.
We actually pulled a few of those good moves too to improve the team (luck or no luck):
<Drafting Subban in the 2nd Rnd (he should have been top 5 overall imo...we're lucky he was available so late).
<Gorges + 1st Rnd (Pacioretty) FOR Rivet
<Galchenyuk at 3rd overall...we could have screwed that up!, but didn't!
<Halak for Eller...imo a fair deal for both teams (Eller still has not been given what DD has been given...for example a full season with a Pacioretty and a Cole...).
And more...?! (I forget but there is more I'm sure!).
But yeah...I know what you mean...make that big splash move or decision.
p.s.: some include Markov on their trade list...he always has a NO TRADE CLAUSE.
Trades, UFA signings, drafting, are all important, but ultimately you should focus on the strategy with the greatest odds of success.
You have a better shot at drafting Jonathan Toews or Drew Doughty than you do to sign Zdeno Chara in the off-season.
But anyway, let's count:
4 of the 7 cap-era cup winners are first and foremost tank jobs (Carolina, Pittsburgh, Chicago, and Los Angeles).
A 5th (Detroit) was built off drafting Lidstrom in the 3rd round, Zetterberg in the 6th round and Datsyuk in the 7th round.
A 6th, Boston, was due to selling off veterans and using the cap space to clean up the UFA market.
ETA: I think Luca Sbisa was the third option for Komisarek.
Even if you have a really bad team you can end up drafting mostly in the 4-8 range. Just look at Columbus, when they first came into the league they were terrible as expected from an expansion team. But they only got 1 top 3 pick, all the rest were in the 4-8 range. It's doubly true if you have an Elite Goalie, and a young #1 D, they will steal too many games for you end up last with any consistency.
Carolina and L.A had 1 "tank" pick each contribute to their cup (Staal & Doughty) one player doesn't make your team a tank job and one player is not enough to win you the cup which means those teams were mostly composed of Trades, UFAs, and picks outside of the top-10.
Pittsburgh's tank is not repeatable because getting Crosby and Malkin is not in any way normal for tanking teams.
Haha! I lol a bit at your post (in a good way).
I was thinking...smart post (smart and witty).
We actually pulled a few of those good moves too to improve the team (luck or no luck):
<Drafting Subban in the 2nd Rnd (he should have been top 5 overall imo...we're lucky he was available so late).
<Gorges + 1st Rnd (Pacioretty) FOR Rivet
<Galchenyuk at 3rd overall...we could have screwed that up!, but didn't!
<Halak for Eller...imo a fair deal for both teams (Eller still has not been given what DD has been given...for example a full season with a Pacioretty and a Cole...).
And more...?! (I forget but there is more I'm sure!).
p.s.: some include Markov on their trade list...he always has a NO TRADE CLAUSE.
Even if you have a really bad team you can end up drafting mostly in the 4-8 range. Just look at Columbus, when they first came into the league they were terrible as expected from an expansion team. But they only got 1 top 3 pick, all the rest were in the 4-8 range. It's doubly true if you have an Elite Goalie, and a young #1 D, they will steal too many games for you end up last with any consistency.
Carolina and L.A had 1 "tank" pick each contribute to their cup (Staal & Doughty) one player doesn't make your team a tank job and one player is not enough to win you the cup which means those teams were mostly composed of Trades, UFAs, and picks outside of the top-10.
Pittsburgh's tank is not repeatable because getting Crosby and Malkin is not in any way normal for tanking teams.
Your misunderstanding is total.
I will ignore your brushing aside of Eric Staal, and move on to your confused analysis of Los Angeles.
You are the latest person to misunderstand the Kings. Los Angeles had Drew Doughty and Mike Richards on their team. One was a 2nd overall, the other was acquired for a former 5th overall. They also had Thomas Hickey, who is the inevitable overhead to account for losses. In the real world which includes busts, you probably need to draft Hickey in order to draft Doughty, Schenn, and Kopitar. A good and sound business includes room for statistically inevitable failures. Their best forward was Anze Kopitar, drafted 11th overall. We drafted a comparably good player in Ryan McDonagh at 12th overall, but we traded him for Gomez in order to make the almighty playoffs. Basically, they had 4 picks in the top-11, from which they got 3 great players who made their cup run.
Pittsburgh's tank may not be repeatable, but Chicago's is. I agree, getting Fleury, Whitney, Crosby, Malkin, Staal over five years is unlikely; but getting Kane and Toews is not, and neither is getting Galchenyuk and Drouin. In any case, the odds against a Pittsburgh-style rebuild are no lower than the odds against signing Zdeno Chara in the offseason -- the latter is one of the greatest UFA signings of all time; never minds the odds of drafting a generational talent like Lidstrom in the 3rd round.
You also bring up the "point" that trades and UFA signings are also important. Quite frankly, everybody knows that you need more than just top-5 drafting to win a cup. With that said, it's the most solid start you can have to putting together a championship-caliber team. It's not sufficient. but it's the best start.
Finally, none of this (Carolina only had Eric Staal, etc) is relevant to the Habs. The issues with the Habs is that our cap contention window is opening around 2016, and we should stack the deck by trading the vets who won't be around then for draft picks rather than losing them for nothing on the UFA market. We need more players who will be impact players during the period 2016-2010, and the best place to start is the 2013 draft.
I will ignore your brushing aside of Eric Staal, and move on to your confused analysis of Los Angeles.
I didn't brush him aside, but he's one player that didn't even win the Conn Smythe, so as integral as he was, and I freely admit he was it's not a valid reason to tank. Especially when you consider he's basically had that one great year and has been a fairly average 1st liner since.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion
You are the latest person to misunderstand the Kings. Los Angeles had Drew Doughty and Mike Richards on their team. One was a 2nd overall, the other was acquired for a former 5th overall. They also had Thomas Hickey, who is the inevitable overhead to account for losses. In the real world which includes busts, you probably need to draft Hickey in order to draft Doughty, Schenn, and Kopitar. A good and sound business includes room for statistically inevitable failures. Their best forward was Anze Kopitar, drafted 11th overall. We drafted a comparably good player in Ryan McDonagh at 12th overall, but we traded him for Gomez in order to make the almighty playoffs. Basically, they had 4 picks in the top-11, from which they got 3 great players who made their cup run.
I'll never understand why people think Kopitar is a tank pick. You don't tank to get the 11th overall pick. Isn't trading your 5th overall pick for a veteran the opposite of tanking? And besides you don't need to have a 5th overall pick to land a Mike Richards caliber player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion
Pittsburgh's tank may not be repeatable, but Chicago's is. I agree, getting Fleury, Whitney, Crosby, Malkin, Staal over five years is unlikely; but getting Kane and Toews is not, and neither is getting Galchenyuk and Drouin. In any case, the odds against a Pittsburgh-style rebuild are no lower than the odds against signing Zdeno Chara in the offseason -- the latter is one of the greatest UFA signings of all time; never minds the odds of drafting a generational talent like Lidstrom in the 3rd round.
The odds of drafting a Crosby and Malkin are infinitely lower than signing a Chara as UFA.
As for Chicago, you might get a Toews and Kane for sure but are you also going to get Keith in the 2nd round, and Seabrook with a mid 1st? What about Byfuglien, Brouwer, Hjarlmarsson with late round picks? Are you going to be able to trade scraps and get Sharp and Versteeg? What about Hossa aren't the odds against you signing him. You think all that is repeatable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion
You also bring up the "point" that trades and UFA signings are also important. Quite frankly, everybody knows that you need more than just top-5 drafting to win a cup. With that said, it's the most solid start you can have to putting together a championship-caliber team. It's not sufficient. but it's the best start.
A couple of top picks and very little else isn't what I consider the best start. Having a team that is already consistently in the playoffs is better. If tomorrow the NHL tells Quebec City they are getting a team and you're in charge. They give you a choice, Phoenix's roster or starting an Expansion team which would you pick?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion
Finally, none of this (Carolina only had Eric Staal, etc) is relevant to the Habs. The issues with the Habs is that our cap contention window is opening around 2016, and we should stack the deck by trading the vets who won't be around then for draft picks rather than losing them for nothing on the UFA market. We need more players who will be impact players during the period 2016-2010, and the best place to start is the 2013 draft.
It's not as black and white as that. By your logic if you don't think Plekanec will be around for the 2016-2020 window then you're saying he should be traded. How quickly/well does Galchenyuk develop if he no longer has sheltered minutes? Having veterans carry the load so that young players are put in positions to succeed is a good thing. So is having young players develop in a winning environment/culture.
Let's wait until march, then we'll have a pretty good idea what this team is made of. I'd like them to make the playoffs, that's for sure.. But to be honest, I most likely see them finishing 9th, 1-3pts away from a PO spot. I wouldn't mind trading some useless vets like Cole and Gionta at the deadline too, since they're obviously washed up or simply not giving a ****. We have a lot of good pieces coming within the next 2-3 years, we might as well take advantage of this incredible deep draft. But as a fan, I'd prefer to see some playoffs. I still have hope.
Pretty sure Sheldon Souray could have yielded Bobby Ryan (or another king's ransom) at the time. We missed the playoffs and Souray left for Edmonton, leaving us with nothing to show for.
I don't think Souray alone would've done it. Burke said he was willing to move Ryan but not for a rental. Koivu and Souray would've got it done though and we could've asked for picks on top of it.
That's what I suggested way back then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion
And you've been right for years.
Right now though, Bergevin better hurry up. There's a flip side to your and my and others analysis that the Habs cup contention window is opening soon: it also means that the rebuilding window is closing soon. Once Galchenyuk, Tinordi, Beaulieu, etc become good players and once Gionta, Kaberle, etc have their cap hits cleared from the team the rebuilding window will be closed. We will be an 8th or 9th place team even if everything goes wrong.
We're running out of time to stack the deck, I think this season is it, it's now or never to get another top-5 pick and to sell some veterans for 1st rounders. If we don't do it now, we'll have to wait until the next rebuilding cycle in 2020 or so or probably beyond to compile a championship-caliber roster.
I know. That's why I've been saying we should do this now. When I saw our hot start this year I figured there was even a chance (and there still might be) that the window is closed already.
Galchenyuk has sped up this process considerably. And that's a good and bad thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth
And what exactly was the price for grabbing Bobby Ryan? It certainly wasn't a couple months of Souray. Burke was a huge Ryan fan and there was likely nothing we could've offered to get him. It's easy to say we should go after guys like Ryan and JVR but this isn't he 80s or 90s where veterans are more valued then top picks.
Ryan could've been had for Koivu and Souray. No way Burke turns that down. And we probably get first round picks out of it too.
As for JVR, years ago I suggested dealing Markov or Cammy for him. I was laughed at. Now... it doesn't seem so funny anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth
You do realize rebuilding with top picks is not the only way to build a championship caliber team right
Sure. But it works.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl
I don't agree on trading Markov. His value is reduced due to his history, and his upside is massive. He could pull a Chelios and play effectively for the next 6 years.
We will not get enough value for him.
You can't equivalate a 34 year old Markov with a 28 year old Chelios. And in the Chelios case we didn't trade for a younger player... we got super shafted on that one. I'd say we should've dealt for a younger player there except that we were actually contenders back then so that wouldn't have made sense either. We just should've kept Chelios.
On one hand you say his value is reduced and on the other his upside is massive... its got to be one or the other right? I get what you're saying but teams aren't stupid. They know what they're getting with him - a supreme PP guy with a couple of years left in the tank.
Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 02-10-2013 at 09:22 AM.
It's by now clear however that JVR was available. Flyers ended up dealing him for a mediocre young dman with shutdown ability.
I remember the rumors from 2009: Flyers wanted Komisarek and they wanted him bad, I think they were offering the Habs their choice of JVR, a 1st, or a third option that I can't remember. Gainey kept Komisarek because he wanted to make the almighty playoffs. We did make the playoffs, and Bruins swept us in 4 and we lost Komisarek to free agency a few months later.
Really? Man I didn't know that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion
Other options to build a good team:
1) Sign Chara in the off-season.
2) Draft Pavel Datsyuk in the 7th round.
3) Trade Gomez for McDonagh and then use the savings to sign Gaborik.
I am not against using any of those unlikely options if the opportunity manifests itself.
ETA: You know how the Bruins were able to sign Zdeno Chara and Marc Savard? By selling off Joe Thornton, the same way fans on this board are against selling veterans. Cap space is one of the prime reasons for selling off veterans.
You forgot... Sign an over the hill sniper who suddenly becomes a 50 goal man again. Have Scott Neidermayer's brother on your roster so he signs with you. Be one of the teams shortlisted by Chris Pronger and deal away picks (one that turns into Jordan Eberle) for him.
BTW, notice that all three of those players were top ten picks with other teams...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth
Just because he was traded several years later doesn't mean he was available then. In fact I would argue it was his lack of progression that was probably a major reason he was traded. Did you know his career high is 21 goals and 40pts? Another 6 years at 4.25 for those numbers and yeah I could see why he was traded for another young highly touted player that wasn't living up to his potential and had seemingly plateaued.
I can't say I remember the Komi/JVR rumors, how reputable were the sources? Do you have any links?
Whether he was available or not (and it sure seemed like he was) doesn't really matter. Point is that folks in this forum don't understand that dealing away vets now will yield value in the future. They just sit there with their emoticons talking about how foolish it is to do it and then years later don't understand why we don't have any power forwards.
And look JVR was a risk. So was Bobby Ryan. You don't KNOW how they're going to turn out. Maybe JVR could've turned into a bust. He's already had concussion problems for example... But sometimes you just have to take those kinds of risks. When you don't take risks you get left behind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl
Precisely. We cannot afford to waste the prime of Price, Subban and Pax. This is my biggest worry. A lot of guys here don't realize that this is exactly why we need a short, sharp effective rebuild. Last year, and this year.
I agree. Oddly enough I used to say this about Plecs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth
Good trades, good UFA signings, good drafting, and a little luck so in other words having a good GM. By the way you also need to be good at all those things even if you rebuild.
You can't plan for luck. Hell, you can't even plan for UFA signings because you don't know who's going to be available. Most UFAs want more money than they're worth and superstars are almost never UFA. And when they have been available we've shown no ability to get them.
You can make your own luck though. Erik Cole comes off a career year... trade him! You know there's a good chance it doesn't last and we just came off a 15th place finish. You make your own luck dude.
Speaking of selling high: If Bourque finishes the year the way he's started it we should look at dealing him too.
Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 02-10-2013 at 09:24 AM.
We actually pulled a few of those good moves too to improve the team (luck or no luck):
<Drafting Subban in the 2nd Rnd (he should have been top 5 overall imo...we're lucky he was available so late).
<Gorges + 1st Rnd (Pacioretty) FOR Rivet
<Galchenyuk at 3rd overall...we could have screwed that up!, but didn't!
<Halak for Eller...imo a fair deal for both teams (Eller still has not been given what DD has been given...for example a full season with a Pacioretty and a Cole...).
And more...?! (I forget but there is more I'm sure!).
But yeah...I know what you mean...make that big splash move or decision.
p.s.: some include Markov on their trade list...he always has a NO TRADE CLAUSE.
Yup, notice that the players we're excited about Max, Price, Galchenyuk and Gorges were all rebuild moves that I've advocated for. Subban was luck. Btw, Price was luck too as we had no business getting a top five that year.
Too bad we didn't do MORE of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth
Even if you have a really bad team you can end up drafting mostly in the 4-8 range. Just look at Columbus, when they first came into the league they were terrible as expected from an expansion team. But they only got 1 top 3 pick, all the rest were in the 4-8 range. It's doubly true if you have an Elite Goalie, and a young #1 D, they will steal too many games for you end up last with any consistency.
Drafting 4 to 8 isn't that bad dude. And you can always try to move up in the draft using that pick.
Besides what we're saying is to trade for prospects and picks. You finish where you finish and it is what it is. In the meantime you make rebuild moves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth
Carolina and L.A had 1 "tank" pick each contribute to their cup (Staal & Doughty) one player doesn't make your team a tank job and one player is not enough to win you the cup which means those teams were mostly composed of Trades, UFAs, and picks outside of the top-10.
Pittsburgh's tank is not repeatable because getting Crosby and Malkin is not in any way normal for tanking teams.
You are being silly here.
Drafting high for a period of time usually will net you a superstar. Sometimes it takes several picks to get one (Detroit) and sometimes you only need one (Minnesota/Dallas).
Drafting high is most definitely repeatable. The Kings drafted top 11 for four straight years and top five for two. Is it a surprise that they got at least one key player out of it? No. Is it surprising they got two key players out of it? Not really man.
It's by now clear however that JVR was available. Flyers ended up dealing him for a mediocre young dman with shutdown ability.
I remember the rumors from 2009: Flyers wanted Komisarek and they wanted him bad, I think they were offering the Habs their choice of JVR, a 1st, or a third option that I can't remember. Gainey kept Komisarek because he wanted to make the almighty playoffs. We did make the playoffs, and Bruins swept us in 4 and we lost Komisarek to free agency a few months later.
I found this rumour from 2009: Flyers apparently offering Briere or Lupul, plus one of JVR, Sbisa or 1st rounder for Komi +.
Probably worth noting that the "+" was Carey Price.
No trade clauses...
Forgot about Pleks, wasn't sure about Gionta and Cole.
Thanks for reminder.
That's a lot of NO TRADE CLAUSES!!
Markov
Pleks
Gionta
Cole
Yup, and if those guys wouldn't be willing to be traded the point is moot. But its still worth discussing for now anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth
I didn't brush him aside, but he's one player that didn't even win the Conn Smythe, so as integral as he was, and I freely admit he was it's not a valid reason to tank. Especially when you consider he's basically had that one great year and has been a fairly average 1st liner since.
Dude, its not like anyone is suggesting that we TRY to finish last so we can get some specific player. What we're saying is that you deal vets for picks and prospects. Yeah, you'll probably fall in the standings but you don't worry about the short term.
And there's no denying that it worked for Carolina.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth
I'll never understand why people think Kopitar is a tank pick. You don't tank to get the 11th overall pick. Isn't trading your 5th overall pick for a veteran the opposite of tanking? And besides you don't need to have a 5th overall pick to land a Mike Richards caliber player.
The Kings drafted 11th or higher 5 straight years and two picks were top five. It's a pattern of behavior there. 11th is kind of low for the rebuild pick you're right but you still have to finish outside the playoffs to get it. And the Kings had Doughty who was drafted 2nd overall. Even if you dismiss Kopitar there's no denying Doughty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth
The odds of drafting a Crosby and Malkin are infinitely lower than signing a Chara as UFA.
So what? The odds of drafting a superstar in the top five is infinitely higher than getting a superstar as a UFA. The superstar doesn't need to be Crosby-like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth
As for Chicago, you might get a Toews and Kane for sure but are you also going to get Keith in the 2nd round, and Seabrook with a mid 1st? What about Byfuglien, Brouwer, Hjarlmarsson with late round picks? Are you going to be able to trade scraps and get Sharp and Versteeg? What about Hossa aren't the odds against you signing him. You think all that is repeatable?
You can draft high and trade for propsects, that's repeatable. Not every pick will pan out but some will. You draft high and you get the superstars. Then you go from there.
At least you have young superstars to work with. Notice that we've never really drafted high and we've never really had superstars and... we haven't had cups.
In fact we were extremely lucky to have found Roy in the 2nd round back in the 80s. If we hadn't, we'd be looking at a 30+ year cup drought... as it is we're approaching 20 years without one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth
A couple of top picks and very little else isn't what I consider the best start. Having a team that is already consistently in the playoffs is better. If tomorrow the NHL tells Quebec City they are getting a team and you're in charge. They give you a choice, Phoenix's roster or starting an Expansion team which would you pick?
Why bother with this question though... I'd want neither one?
We're sitting here with some good young players/prospects and we have vets to deal with. We should take advantage of this. Nobody is suggesting we try to turn ourselves into an expansion team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth
It's not as black and white as that. By your logic if you don't think Plekanec will be around for the 2016-2020 window then you're saying he should be traded. How quickly/well does Galchenyuk develop if he no longer has sheltered minutes? Having veterans carry the load so that young players are put in positions to succeed is a good thing. So is having young players develop in a winning environment/culture.
Its nice to have a vet to learn from but its really not that necessary towards development. Yzerman, Sakic, Lemieux... legends of the game came into crappy teams with very little to shelter them and they played just fine.
We can keep Plecs for now but we don't need Markov, Gionta, Cole, Bourque.... some of these guys can and should be dealt.
I don't think Souray alone would've done it. Burke said he was willing to move Ryan but not for a rental. Koivu and Souray would've got it done though and we could've asked for picks on top of it.
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy
Ryan could've been had for Koivu and Souray. No way Burke turns that down. And we probably get first round picks out of it too.
If he wasn't going to trade him for a rental then why would Koivu & Souray be guaranteed to get the deal done. They had McDonald and Getzlaf as centers. McDonald had 85pts the year before and finished with 78pts that year. Getzlaf had a 58pt season as a sophmore. I don't see Anaheim being all that interested in Koivu at that time so I'm not convinced that Anaheim accepts your deal. It's much easier playing GM on the internet then in real life.
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy
As for JVR, years ago I suggested dealing Markov or Cammy for him. I was laughed at. Now... it doesn't seem so funny anymore.
I'm not surprised people laughed at you his career high is 21 goals and 40pts.
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy
On one hand you say his value is reduced and on the other his upside is massive... its got to be one or the other right? I get what you're saying but teams aren't stupid. They know what they're getting with him - a supreme PP guy with a couple of years left in the tank.
Markov is still a risk which is why his value is reduced but still has a big upside.
If he wasn't going to trade him for a rental then why would Koivu & Souray be guaranteed to get the deal done. They had McDonald and Getzlaf as centers. McDonald had 85pts the year before and finished with 78pts that year. Getzlaf had a 58pt season as a sophmore. I don't see Anaheim being all that interested in Koivu at that time so I'm not convinced that Anaheim accepts your deal. It's much easier playing GM on the internet then in real life.
Souray was absolutely on fire that season and was the hottest commodity out there. He was coming up as a UFA though so Burke probably wouldn't have taken him alone. That doesn't mean he wasn't without value though dude.
As for Koivu... his name was bandied about all year that season because he was close with Selanne. The Ducks were coming up on a cup run and they'd be adding another center with good chemistry with their top sniper as well as the hottest offensive blueliner in the league. And they'd add these guys without touching their roster at all.
There's no way they don't make that move as it helps them tremendously for the cup drive. Hell, they'd be stupid not to make the move. I think they'd have give us at least a 1st to go along with it too.
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Originally Posted by Sorinth
I'm not surprised people laughed at you his career high is 21 goals and 40pts.
Yup. And I'm sure by his career's end that's where it will stay right?
BTW, Bobby Ryan had zero career NHL points. What are his highs now? I guess you'd have laughed at that one too right?
Thanks for proving my point.
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Originally Posted by Sorinth
Markov is still a risk which is why his value is reduced but still has a big upside.
Yeah right...
Neat trick. We CANT trade him because he won't get us anything... but he's going to be AWESOME. Right?
Whether he was available or not (and it sure seemed like he was) doesn't really matter. Point is that folks in this forum don't understand that dealing away vets now will yield value in the future. They just sit there with their emoticons talking about how foolish it is to do it and then years later don't understand why we don't have any power forwards.
You should put less stock into what random posters on the internet think. Besides we have 3 wingers who are 6'2 skate like the wind, can hit and can score over 25 goals a season.
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy
You can't plan for luck. Hell, you can't even plan for UFA signings because you don't know who's going to be available. Most UFAs want more money than they're worth and superstars are almost never UFA. And when they have been available we've shown no ability to get them.
You can make your own luck though. Erik Cole comes off a career year... trade him! You know there's a good chance it doesn't last and we just came off a 15th place finish. You make your own luck dude.
Well if you sign UFAs and then trade them within a year because they played well then you will quickly find no one wants to play for you including your drafted players. Loyalty is a two way street if you treat your players as playing chips then they will treat you as an ATM.
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