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All Encompassing Tanking/Rebuilding/Selling at Deadline Thread 2.0

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Old
02-10-2013, 11:21 AM
  #601
S Bah
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
My guess is they will have a cup before us.
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Originally Posted by theboss View Post
Habs need testicles
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
They drafted poorly. We have Timmins has head scout, that wont happen to us. We will be more like Pittsburgh and Chicago.
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
There are some fan who just want an 8-9-10 place team forever. There are some Habs fans that wants them to win the cup someday. I am of the second opinion.
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
By Tanking we all meen rebuilding. getting assets now to make our team better for the future.
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
I am not whining, i have been hoping for such a rebuild for the last 15 years. And during that time, never once were we consodered a true cup contender. We have postponed the inevitable... I am hoping for what is best for our team. Short term sacrifice, for long term gain.
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BTW remember guys that we have in our management guys that went throught succesfull complete rebuild, like Bergevin (in Chicago and Pittsburgh) and Dudley in Chicago.
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Originally Posted by LastRide View Post
Its actually not a bad idea shipping out the useless bums and build through the draft/trades.
This!All of it,we need to rebuild the team,so it can be competitive whether or not the refs are ruining the game.Players are needed that can compete on a level playing field, not players that are on average smaller,lighter and can't protect themselves. True athletes can't concentrate on success while thinking the opposition can at any time decide to punish anyone they feel like without repercussions.Draft appropriately and then the Habs can actually be a contender for the Stanley Cup.

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Old
02-10-2013, 11:22 AM
  #602
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Wow didn't take long....the honeymoon is over!

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Old
02-10-2013, 11:28 AM
  #603
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Drafting 4 to 8 isn't that bad dude. And you can always try to move up in the draft using that pick.
It's obviously not bad and you'll still find some great players but your odds of getting that superstar are getting worse which means your less likely to rebuild properly.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Drafting high for a period of time usually will net you a superstar. Sometimes it takes several picks to get one (Detroit) and sometimes you only need one (Minnesota/Dallas).

Drafting high is most definitely repeatable. The Kings drafted top 11 for four straight years and top five for two. Is it a surprise that they got at least one key player out of it? No. Is it surprising they got two key players out of it? Not really man.
I think your fighting a straw man here. I never said you won't get star players if you sit at the bottom drafting high. We were discussing the makeup of LA's team, they had 1 top pick contributing. Getting that 1 guy who is not even your MVP is not a good enough reason to tank, or use that team as a tank success story.

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02-10-2013, 11:28 AM
  #604
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Bergevin said coming in that he wants to build through the draft. Hopefully, he understands that the goal is not just to make the playoffs (except that may be Molson's goal because they make a ton of money), but to build a team that wins the Cup.

I hope too that the prime years of Price, Subban and Patches aren't wasted. With Galchenyuk and Gallagher (and he's a player) already on the squad and Tinordi coming up the pipeline, we have a nice group of talented young players to build that up around. This draft year 2013 is HUGE!

If we suck this year, it isn't the worse thing that can happen. Still a long way to go though & we're still in the play-off picture. Our upcoming road trip will tell which way this team is going to go.

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Old
02-10-2013, 11:33 AM
  #605
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Cole, Gionta, Armstrong, Bouillon, Moen, Kaberle and Weber should all be trade before trade deadline if the Habs are not Stanley Cup contender (top 5 in the East)

Cole for a 2nd round draft pick
Gionta for a 2nd round draft pick
Armstrong for a 7th round draft pick
Bouillon for a 3rd or 4th round draft pick
Moen for a 4th or 5th round draft pick
Kaberle for a 7th round draft pick
Weber for a 5th round draft pick

Desharnais, Bourque and Markov could also be trade if the team go in full tanking mode.

Desharnais for a 3rd round draft pick+ a prospect
Bourque for a 2nd round pick+ a prospect
Markov for a first and a 2nd round pick+ a prospect.

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Old
02-10-2013, 11:45 AM
  #606
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Originally Posted by Mario Lemieux fan 66 View Post
Cole, Gionta, Armstrong, Bouillon, Moen, Kaberle and Weber should all be trade before trade deadline if the Habs are not Stanley Cup contender (top 5 in the East)

Cole for a 2nd round draft pick NTC/NMC
Gionta for a 2nd round draft pick NTC/NMC
Armstrong for a 7th round draft pick
Bouillon for a 3rd or 4th round draft pick
Moen for a 4th or 5th round draft pick NTC/NMC
Kaberle for a 7th round draft pick
Weber for a 5th round draft pick

Desharnais, Bourque and Markov could also be trade if the team go in full tanking mode.

Desharnais for a 3rd round draft pick+ a prospect
Bourque for a 2nd round pick+ a prospect NTC/NMC
Markov for a first and a 2nd round pick+ a prospect. NTC/NMC
voila.

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Old
02-10-2013, 12:11 PM
  #607
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Dude, its not like anyone is suggesting that we TRY to finish last so we can get some specific player. What we're saying is that you deal vets for picks and prospects. Yeah, you'll probably fall in the standings but you don't worry about the short term.
And after we trade vets for late 1sts, and still finish outside of a top-5 draft pick what then? How long do we sit in the lower half of the pack of not being bad enough to get superstars, and not being good enough to make the playoffs.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
And there's no denying that it worked for Carolina.

The Kings drafted 11th or higher 5 straight years and two picks were top five. It's a pattern of behavior there. 11th is kind of low for the rebuild pick you're right but you still have to finish outside the playoffs to get it. And the Kings had Doughty who was drafted 2nd overall. Even if you dismiss Kopitar there's no denying Doughty.
It's not what they did it's the composition of the team that won that matters. They both had 1 tank pick contributing.

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So what? The odds of drafting a superstar in the top five is infinitely higher than getting a superstar as a UFA. The superstar doesn't need to be Crosby-like.
If Pittsburgh drafts Kane and Toews instead of Crosby and Malkin they probably don't win the cup. If Boston's cup should be dismissed because it's too much of a long shot to sign a Chara as a UFA then shouldn't Pittsburgh's also be dismissed?

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You can draft high and trade for propsects, that's repeatable. Not every pick will pan out but some will. You draft high and you get the superstars. Then you go from there.

At least you have young superstars to work with. Notice that we've never really drafted high and we've never really had superstars and... we haven't had cups.

In fact we were extremely lucky to have found Roy in the 2nd round back in the 80s. If we hadn't, we'd be looking at a 30+ year cup drought... as it is we're approaching 20 years without one.

Why bother with this question though... I'd want neither one?

We're sitting here with some good young players/prospects and we have vets to deal with. We should take advantage of this. Nobody is suggesting we try to turn ourselves into an expansion team.
DA claimed having 1-2 top picks is the best starting point to build a team. I'm pretty sure you also believe this. In which case you would pick the expansion team, no? I'm just trying to show how crazy it is to gut a good team in order to rebuild through the draft.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Its nice to have a vet to learn from but its really not that necessary towards development. Yzerman, Sakic, Lemieux... legends of the game came into crappy teams with very little to shelter them and they played just fine.
So because it didn't hurt some of the best players to ever lace them up it won't hurt the Gallaghers, Beaulieu's and Tinordi's of the world

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02-10-2013, 12:12 PM
  #608
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You can move any if cole, gionta, bourque up front, but you'd need to ensure you can make lateral replacements on the roster short term.

That's tough, but not impossible. I'd say toughest for gionta, bc he brings (in theory.... He is the captain) a bigger set of intangibles. Cole will likely use his NTC to limit the market, & bourque would have to continue

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Old
02-10-2013, 12:19 PM
  #609
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NTC doen not mean you cant convince them of being tradedl, they will just have a say on where they go. Telling them they are not part of the plan anymore and they they somehow unwanted here, will probably make them accept a trade.

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Old
02-10-2013, 12:30 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Souray was absolutely on fire that season and was the hottest commodity out there. He was coming up as a UFA though so Burke probably wouldn't have taken him alone. That doesn't mean he wasn't without value though dude.

As for Koivu... his name was bandied about all year that season because he was close with Selanne. The Ducks were coming up on a cup run and they'd be adding another center with good chemistry with their top sniper as well as the hottest offensive blueliner in the league. And they'd add these guys without touching their roster at all.
There's no way they don't make that move as it helps them tremendously for the cup drive. Hell, they'd be stupid not to make the move. I think they'd have give us at least a 1st to go along with it too.
If Burke didn't want to trade him for a rental, then he wasn't interested in dealing him for Souray which means Koivu is the center piece of your deal. With McDonald and Getzlaf already there I don't see where Koivu would fit long term. So why would you trade a great prospect for two guys who don't fit long term.

We'll probably never know what people we're offering for Souray but considering there wasn't exactly a bidding war for his services as a UFA maybe he wasn't as hot a commodity as you think he was.

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Yup. And I'm sure by his career's end that's where it will stay right?

BTW, Bobby Ryan had zero career NHL points. What are his highs now? I guess you'd have laughed at that one too right?

Thanks for proving my point.
JVR is no where near the player people expected him to be and has already been traded because of it. Maybe he finally puts it together but maybe he'll end up like AK a 20g scorer who struggles with his consistency. There's always that risk when picking up picks/prospects even highly touted ones. Trading an established All-Star for that type of player is a huge risk. It seems your philosophy is who cares if he busts we will just end up sucking and get another crack at a top pick.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Neat trick. We CANT trade him because he won't get us anything... but he's going to be AWESOME. Right?
If you trade him your betting he won't return to form because your not going to get the value of #1 D man in return.

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02-10-2013, 12:30 PM
  #611
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Our D is full of soft European's. Kaberle, Markov, Diaz, Emelin, Weber. No wonder our team is soft as butter..LOL.

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02-10-2013, 12:32 PM
  #612
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Our D is full of soft European's. Kaberle, Markov, Diaz, Emelin, Weber. No wonder our team is soft as butter..LOL.
Xenophobia...LOL

Emelin is so soft, let's trade him for Marc-Andre Bergeron or Campoli.

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Old
02-10-2013, 12:37 PM
  #613
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Patofqc does this mean the Habs can add Drouin,Gauthier,Wennberg,Mantha & Carrier and maybe Compher,Hartman,Lazar & Dauphin.Ah what the **** I'm tired of losing to the Refs anyway.I'm in!
Now that I've calmed down a bit,here's some players to add to the list Jason Dickinson, Morgan Klimchuk,Connor Hurley,Justin Bailey these are the forwards the Habs could get with a few more draft picks.Defence Darnell Nurse,Nikita Zadorov,Rasmus Ristolainen, Ryan Pulock,Mirco Mueller,Madison Bowey,Samuel Morin,Marc McNulty.Depending on how many draft picks we have there are Big Power Forwards too:Mike McCarron,John Hayden,Tyler Hill and Nick Moutrey,then players of interest Hunter Garlent,Myles Bell,Cole Ully and Nick Baptiste.

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02-10-2013, 12:39 PM
  #614
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Xenophobia...LOL

Emelin is so soft, let's trade him for Marc-Andre Bergeron or Campoli.
I would not mind a top six of soft Europeans like Chara, Kronwall, Edler, Ekman-Larrsen, Hedman, Emelin

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02-10-2013, 12:42 PM
  #615
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voila.
C'mon now you know most guys will waive to go to contender in market they like instead of staying in the cold on bottom feeding team

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02-10-2013, 12:46 PM
  #616
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C'mon now you know most guys will waive to go to contender in market they like instead of staying in the cold on bottom feeding team
How many contenders have 5 million in cap space for next year when the cap goes down

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02-10-2013, 12:47 PM
  #617
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Xenophobia...LOL

Emelin is so soft, let's trade him for Marc-Andre Bergeron or Campoli.
Emelin is a good hitter but I wish he could back it up with his fists. At times he's been lousy defensively. Look at the whole picture. PK, Gorges, Bouillon, Webber, Diaz, Kaberle, Emelin, Markov. Who is going to be scared of going up against these guys. None are real big tough guys. Other than Markov and PK for offensive purposes.

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02-10-2013, 12:50 PM
  #618
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I've said it before. You can't have DD, Plekanec and Gionta as half your top 6 and compete in the NHL. Add Kaberle, Markov, and Diaz as half your defense and you won't challenge. Sure you'll have some wow performances when your bigger role players step up, that's why they're role players. Until we get bigger in our top 6 and on defense forget it. The only positives we have are youth and Price- leads the league the last 3 seasons in even strength save percentage.

Trade anyone except Price, PK, Galchenyuk, Pacioretty and Gallagher for draft picks, or try to land Perry. Plekanec is going to be tough to deal but he's who Anaheim needs.

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Old
02-10-2013, 12:52 PM
  #619
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Originally Posted by LastRide View Post
Emelin is a good hitter but I wish he could back it up with his fists. Look at the whole picture. PK, Gorges, Bouillon, Webber, Diaz, Kaberle, Emelin, Markov. Who is going to be scared of going up against these guys. None are real big tough guys. Other than Markov and PK for offensive purposes.
Calling Emelin a "soft European" ignores the reason he can't fight, the man managed to go back and knock out the guy who destroyed his face before needing to get metal plates put in. I have a problem with Emelin lately but it has more to do with the fact that he's a fringe top 4 defender who doesn't play smart, but at the same time his physical play is not an issue.

The defense is too small and soft but it has nothing to do with national origin, this team could use a Chara or a Douglas Murray. Kaberle and Weber should be gone and replaced by someone bigger and tougher, but I guess that's easier said than done considering the only toughness we were able to add on the back end comes from 5'8" Boullion.

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02-10-2013, 01:05 PM
  #620
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How many contenders have 5 million in cap space for next year when the cap goes down
UFA players not resigned , trade at the draft or in the off season, buy-out or retirement are the many ways the contenders of this year could use to respect the cap.

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Old
02-10-2013, 01:07 PM
  #621
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C'mon now you know most guys will waive to go to contender in market they like instead of staying in the cold on bottom feeding team
exactly, and that's why guys like Cole, Gionta, Markov, Plekanec all (re) signed with us, cause they wanted to play for a contender...

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Old
02-10-2013, 01:08 PM
  #622
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Calling Emelin a "soft European" ignores the reason he can't fight, the man managed to go back and knock out the guy who destroyed his face before needing to get metal plates put in. I have a problem with Emelin lately but it has more to do with the fact that he's a fringe top 4 defender who doesn't play smart, but at the same time his physical play is not an issue.

The defense is too small and soft but it has nothing to do with national origin, this team could use a Chara or a Douglas Murray. Kaberle and Weber should be gone and replaced by someone bigger and tougher, but I guess that's easier said than done considering the only toughness we were able to add on the back end comes from 5'8" Boullion.
I agree Emelin should be playing smarter and upping his game considering he is a good solid D-Man when he wants to be. This guy is going backwards. You wouldn't expect it from him to be playing lousy like he has lately. Nobody on the defensive side is playing all that good.

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02-10-2013, 01:08 PM
  #623
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At the end of the day, this remains a team in transition. It's nowhere near a finished product. Fans need to remember that and most importantly, management has to remember it. 2014-15 is the earliest the window can open and that is if MB aces his trade/UFA signings with the cap room we will have this summer and/or likely the summer after that AND another wave of our prospects is in the NHL by then AND Galchenuk quickly becomes a #1 C. It's quite possible we're looking more at 2015-16.
To me, this is partly why I felt it was stupid to lowball PK into a holdout. What did we gain from this ? A low cap hit for the next year and a half where we likely won't be competing for the cup anyway.

We lacked vision in the past with Gainey. Everything is now now now but we don't have the talent and the experience to win now.

Whatever, I guess we will see in 2 weeks where we stand. I just hope that if we're in between 8th and 12th we will start taking decisions for the long term a bit more than the short term.

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02-10-2013, 01:11 PM
  #624
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To me, this is partly why I felt it was stupid to lowball PK into a holdout. What did we gain from this ? A low cap hit for the next year and a half where we likely won't be competing for the cup anyway.

We lacked vision in the past with Gainey. Everything is now now now but we don't have the talent and the experience to win now.

Whatever, I guess we will see in 2 weeks where we stand. I just hope that if we're in between 8th and 12th we will start taking decisions for the long term a bit more than the short term.
This is why I'm not sipping the Bergevin kool-aid with regards to Subban. I don't believe in tanking but I do believe in looking to two years from now more than tomorrow.

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02-10-2013, 01:59 PM
  #625
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This is why I'm not sipping the Bergevin kool-aid with regards to Subban. I don't believe in tanking but I do believe in looking to two years from now more than tomorrow.

MB should have signed PK long term. I bet it would have come cheaper. Now he might end up coasting us major dollars in a year and a half. Its going to tie up extra money we could use rebuilding the team.

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