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Old
02-10-2013, 11:53 AM
  #26
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Strength: Drafting forwards, especially centers. The organization rarely misses on first round forwards.

Weakness: Under Homer, the organizations' inability/unwillingness to develop their own defenseman and goaltenders continues to be a huge liability. Last year (I haven't crunched the numbers for this year) , we had the most expensive defense in the league by a huge margin. That's because a large chunk of the defense has to be bought on the market, since there are no young players outside of Gus and some bottom pairing callups that can be used. The results have certainly NOT matched the cap hit spent.

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02-10-2013, 11:54 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
well, having your #1 defenseman end his career early and having the two players (Carter, Richards) you planned on building your team around force themselves off the team wasn't something he could control
that is simply not true.. Unless you believe the garbage written by the Flyers beat writers. The Flyers made those deals because we needed a goaltender. and again we had no prospects to trade for one.

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02-10-2013, 11:59 AM
  #28
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We lacked not only prospects, we lacked draft picks and cap space as well.

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02-10-2013, 12:02 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
We lacked not only prospects, we lacked draft picks and cap space as well.
yeah remember having to sign 2 PTO guys because we had zero cap space to call anyone up needing only 1 point on the final weekend against the Rangers to get home ice in round 1.

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02-10-2013, 12:06 PM
  #30
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He's pretty hit or miss as far as trades go. We're a good drafting team under his reign. Yet our farm system is perpetually ******. His cap management has been lackluster as have been his free agent signings. He also kept John Stevens for a while and won't get rid of Michael Leighton for some reason.

So more bad then good overall. We have a competitive team most years but we have had bad seasons under him and we've only had one impressive playoff run really which ended horrifically in probably the worst goaltending duel of a SCF ever. It's closing in on half a century without a Cup. People are getting tired of it at this point. Only saving grace is that we've had a lot of competitive teams and great players but the shame of it is that its all been semi-wasted over the years.

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02-10-2013, 12:13 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Weakness: Under Homer, the organizations' inability/unwillingness to develop their own defenseman and goaltenders continues to be a huge liability.
It's a problem that we havent and it shows like your post illustrates...

However, I don't think its that we have an inability or unwillingness.

We simply have traded too many picks in the last 8 years. In that time period, only Kevin Marshall out of all our 1st/2nd round picks isn't playing in the league.

Which tells me we need to stop dealing picks.

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02-10-2013, 12:30 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
We lacked not only prospects, we lacked draft picks and cap space as well.
That's an impressive trifecta.

Homer scored some early victories (returns for Zhitnik and Forsberg) but has so many missteps from losing a pick dumping Gauthier to the Eminger fiasco to getting fleeced by Tampa (trading an expiring contract for Walker... ugh.)

If one were to map out all of the trades and signings it would be clear that a great many assets (cap room, picks, and trade valuable players) have been jettisoned for a return that is rather meager.

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02-10-2013, 01:01 PM
  #33
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Giroux
Schenn
Couterier
Voracek
Simmonds
McGinn
Wellwood
laughton
Rinaldo
All under 25, with playing experience or success in the NHL...
while all aren't top 6 players, it does go to depth. Colorado has been touted for their prospect pool,but they still haven't consistantly made the playoffs for awhile. Our players have developed, not every prospect will do the same. People here value prospects too highly (yes they are important, but not the holy grail). An established player generally has a higher value than a prospect.

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02-10-2013, 01:02 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Mota View Post
its not like the Flyers are in the position the Phillies are in.
Yeah, shame on the Phillies for not having won a World Series in 4 years. Imagine how we'd feel if they had gone 38 years without a championship.

Oh, wait...

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02-10-2013, 01:06 PM
  #35
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Just based on some of the comments I've seen:

Holmgren's best off-season was the one where Rathje got hurt and never really played again, and in turn he got to spend a lot of money. That was 6 years ago by the way. Less than 5 into Clarke's 2nd reign as GM had people on talk radio boycotting the team until he was fired or resigned. Don't forget that the Flyers also essentially traded a late 1st (1st pick in the 2nd round) for a goaltender that they could have signed had they simply waited a few months. Since then, has Holmgren "won" an off-season?

The Flyers weren't in that bad of a position in 2007. They still had Richards, Carter, Umberger, Gagne, Knuble, Downie, Pitkanen (traded for Lupul) and they had just drafted Giroux. An objective analysis of the team at the time, and not simple conjecture from TSN experts, whose opinions shouldn't hold any more or less water than your own, would see that. They had a bad year. It happens. It's supposed to happen when there is supposed to be league-wide parity. Over the most recent CBA, only two teams made the playoffs every year, one team missed every year, and no one finished higher than 5th every year.

Regardless, constantly trading away young players for the now-players past their primes and never being patient or having any sense of organizational development is how you get to be the St. Louis Blues of the 90s. They always made the playoffs, but were never a contender.

By the way, if you go back to when Holmgren was hired, Clarke said himself that Holmgren was largely responsible for the moves made into 2006-07. It's one of the reasons why he wasn't Snider's first choice to replace Clarke.

Also, the return for Forsberg is one of the more overrated gems of Holmgren's work. He looked good in making the trade, but didn't make the results count. Traded the 1st back just to sign Timonen and Hartnell before free agency (it worked out, but it was a trade made out of paranoia and not savvy), traded the 3rd to draft Kevin Marshall, traded Upshall *with* a 2nd round pick for Carcillo (terrible if not pointless). The best part of that trade was duping the Penguins into taking Hamhuis' rights after we traded Ryan Parent for it, which led to signing Bryzgalov.

Holmgren working within the organization for almost 20 years is directly responsible for always having to overpay in signing or trading for defenseman, having been an abject failure in drafting them. The Flyers have not drafted and kept a defenseman on their roster for as long as Holmgren has been here.

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02-10-2013, 01:14 PM
  #36
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our draft success

has a lot to do with our scouts. inge hammarstrom nailed us some homeruns in europe. simon nolet and his ability to hit homeruns in french ontario regions and quebec has been impressive. he goes into quebec grabs a pick after montreal picks, they get chouinard and we steal simon gagne under the habs noses. and i hope pronger develops into a good scout and can use his experience,influence to draft us some dmen that will turn us into a championship team.

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02-10-2013, 01:27 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spread Eagle View Post
Giroux
Schenn
Couterier
Voracek
Simmonds
McGinn
Wellwood
laughton
Rinaldo
All under 25, with playing experience or success in the NHL...
while all aren't top 6 players, it does go to depth. Colorado has been touted for their prospect pool,but they still haven't consistantly made the playoffs for awhile. Our players have developed, not every prospect will do the same. People here value prospects too highly (yes they are important, but not the holy grail). An established player generally has a higher value than a prospect.
you cant have developed players without(are you ready), drafting and developing players. Yes its not the be all end all. There are no gaurantees with anything. But the Flyers have tried a certian way for how long now? I think its time to start keeping draft picks and developing our own.
Unless you think its cool to deal 2nd and 1st round picks for rentals because hey we have a young core so its cool to give away draft picks.

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02-10-2013, 01:34 PM
  #38
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People are really ripping Homer for trading for players' rights? With the exception of Hamhuis who wanted to go to a specific team for reasons outside of hockey, every player's rights hes traded for hes gotten resigned. I don't believe we get Hartnell or Timonen without that trade. Nor Bryz. The additional time to be the only team able to negotiate with a player before anyone else is an underrated move that doesn't get enough credit. Did he overpay for Pronger? No, he paid what it cost to get one of the best defensemen in the league after he knew he would sign here. That move almost paid off immediately in 2010 and if not for concussions we would still be reaping the benefits. You would rather have Sbisa and Lupul and 2 players not on the roster in 2010 then pronger? OK Captain Hindsight.

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02-10-2013, 01:38 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
People are really ripping Homer for trading for players' rights? With the exception of Hamhuis who wanted to go to a specific team for reasons outside of hockey, every player's rights hes traded for hes gotten resigned. I don't believe we get Hartnell or Timonen without that trade. Nor Bryz. The additional time to be the only team able to negotiate with a player before anyone else is an underrated move that doesn't get enough credit. Did he overpay for Pronger? No, he paid what it cost to get one of the best defensemen in the league after he knew he would sign here. That move almost paid off immediately in 2010 and if not for concussions we would still be reapin ghte benefits. You would rather have Sbisa and Lupul and 2 players not on the roster in 2010 then pronger? OK Captain Hindsight.
Holmgren still was bidding against himself for Pronger. Dont get me wrong, i loved it when Pronger was here. But I think it was a 1st round pick too much IMO

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02-10-2013, 01:39 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Causality is tricky and certainly not guaranteed. As loose at it is though, you can see how us taking Carlson at that one spot changes our team incredibly.......or it doesn't and we throw him AND Sbisa to get Pronger. Who knows?
Indeed, causality works both ways. Say we don't trade for Pronger and it's Sbisa who gets the stick in the face against Toronto. We're then stuck with just Carlson and no Pronger or Sbisa. I think at this point it's very hard to affix any blame, but the Eminger trade was ridiculous, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
The Flyers have had the worst farm club in the AHL the last few years.
Dont you think that keeping some of those high draft picks would of changed that?
bottom 5 prospect group as well. Especially after Laughton,Cousins and Stolarz.
How long will that "but we have a young core excuse fly"? I have said it before, and I will say it again. Probably not for the last time. Having a solid "young" core is no excuse for having poor prospect depth and a God awfull AHL team.
Why does the farm team matter though? If we suck or have an ancient team it obviously does but we don't. We've had a weak farm team for years but it hasn't affected us one bit and we still run with one of the youngest and most talented teams in the NHL.

The young core 'excuse' will fly as long as it's true, so long as they're winning. You can say it as many times as you like but it is a good excuse. We're not Adirondack fans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Leighton never earned that contract. Never did it look like he could be a true starting goalie.
It's not something i'd have done, but he had returned .918% and 2.48 including play-off shut-outs behind the same defence he'd have played with that year. It could be argued he'd earned his shot and it'd be very interesting to see what the overall feel would be had he not conceded that Kane goal.

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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Speaking of that Pronger trade. Holmgren could of made one of those firsts a conditional one instead of the 3rd being conditional. Since He was bidding against himself for Pronger.
I am not saying Holmgren is a bad GM. Hes made some mistakes. Hes just made some pretty bad ones along the way. Cap management being one of them.
Who's to say he could have done that? We didn't know anything about the trade until it was broken, has it ever been confirmed that we weren't one of a few teams bidding? Even if so, who's to say Anaheim would even have accepted a conditional first being part of it? It's crazy to think a GM would just pile in with a massive offer as his first proposal.

Cap management isn't his strongest area indeed but we always have a deep team that's right up against the cap. We've had a lot of players earning a lot less than they probably should (Read, Richards, Giroux) and this helps us keep the big contracts under the cap. Isn't that pretty decent cap management?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Also, the return for Forsberg is one of the more overrated gems of Holmgren's work. He looked good in making the trade, but didn't make the results count. Traded the 1st back just to sign Timonen and Hartnell before free agency (it worked out, but it was a trade made out of paranoia and not savvy), traded the 3rd to draft Kevin Marshall, traded Upshall *with* a 2nd round pick for Carcillo (terrible if not pointless). The best part of that trade was duping the Penguins into taking Hamhuis' rights after we traded Ryan Parent for it, which led to signing Bryzgalov.
Again, i don't see it as being over-rated at all. He got Upshall, Parent, Timonen, Hartnell and a 3rd for a player who only played 28 more games in his NHL career. It was a fantastic trade and set up our entire rebuild.


Last edited by 1865: 02-10-2013 at 01:46 PM.
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02-10-2013, 01:45 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
People are really ripping Homer for trading for players' rights? With the exception of Hamhuis who wanted to go to a specific team for reasons outside of hockey, every player's rights hes traded for hes gotten resigned. I don't believe we get Hartnell or Timonen without that trade. Nor Bryz. The additional time to be the only team able to negotiate with a player before anyone else is an underrated move that doesn't get enough credit. Did he overpay for Pronger? No, he paid what it cost to get one of the best defensemen in the league after he knew he would sign here. That move almost paid off immediately in 2010 and if not for concussions we would still be reaping the benefits. You would rather have Sbisa and Lupul and 2 players not on the roster in 2010 then pronger? OK Captain Hindsight.
You do know that the Flyers had to add an extra 1st because of Lupul's contract, right? That hurt us when the Flyers couldn't keep adding at the deadline. It could have been the difference.

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02-10-2013, 01:47 PM
  #42
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You do know that the Flyers had to add an extra 1st because of Lupul's contract, right? That hurt us when the Flyers couldn't keep adding at the deadline. It could have been the difference.
Again, that's speculation.

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02-10-2013, 01:53 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1865 View Post


Why does the farm team matter though? If we suck or have an ancient team it obviously does but we don't. We've had a weak farm team for years but it hasn't affected us one bit and we still run with one of the youngest and most talented teams in the NHL.

The young core 'excuse' will fly as long as it's true, so long as they're winning. You can say it as many times as you like but it is a good excuse. We're not Adirondack fans.



It's not something i'd have done, but he had returned .918% and 2.48 including play-off shut-outs behind the same defence he'd have played with that year. It could be argued he'd earned his shot and it'd be very interesting to see what the overall feel would be had he not conceded that Kane goal.



Who's to say he could have done that? We didn't know anything about the trade until it was broken, has it ever been confirmed that we weren't one of a few teams bidding? Even if so, who's to say Anaheim would even have accepted a conditional first being part of it? It's crazy to think a GM would just pile in with a massive offer as his first proposal.

Cap management isn't his strongest area indeed but we always have a deep team that's right up against the cap. We've had a lot of players earning a lot less than they probably should (Read, Richards, Giroux) and this helps us keep the big contracts under the cap. Isn't that pretty decent cap management?
I am not saying we need a top notch farm club. But whos the best player we have to call up down in ADK? Wellwood? Before that it was Tye McGinn? in defenseman we have Gus?
My point is if we had some viable options down in ADK they wouldnt have to sign Gervais. Or Foster. or Lilja. need I continue?
It was well documented that nobody else had made an offer for Pronger. If that 2nd 1st round pick had been conditional I would of been fine with it.
I am not saying he hasnt done some good things. He has, but he has made some mistakes and has some faults.

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02-10-2013, 01:56 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Holmgren still was bidding against himself for Pronger. Dont get me wrong, i loved it when Pronger was here. But I think it was a 1st round pick too much IMO
So what? The move singlehandedly put us in position for a stanley cup. The Ducks have Emerson Etem and Kyle Palmieri as a result of the 2 firsts we gave them.

Quote:
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You do know that the Flyers had to add an extra 1st because of Lupul's contract, right? That hurt us when the Flyers couldn't keep adding at the deadline. It could have been the difference.
You are right it could of been the difference that without that first we don't get Pronger, then we don't get to the SCF at all. We hardly ever add at the deadline, and don't swing it that we don't because we don't have the assets, we have more picks and more prospects we could trade if we wanted to. We are just not a team that makes moves at the deadline the moves we make are in the offseason.

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02-10-2013, 02:49 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
Indeed, causality works both ways. Say we don't trade for Pronger and it's Sbisa who gets the stick in the face against Toronto. We're then stuck with just Carlson and no Pronger or Sbisa. I think at this point it's very hard to affix any blame, but the Eminger trade was ridiculous, yes.
Not quite.

You never have Pronger yeah...

But you don't just have Carlson if Sbisa gets knocked. You also have Lupul and 2 first round picks.

Pronger + Eminger

for

Carlson + Sbisa + Lupul + 1st + 1st

...that is if we're sticking with this theory.

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02-10-2013, 02:49 PM
  #46
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Say Homer does get the axe, who would fit this team and most importantly have the "skill set" to manufacture a SC winner here in Philly?

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02-10-2013, 03:02 PM
  #47
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I think we just trade the team for LA's roster, do a complete swap, think they'd do it?

Like a Homer.

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02-10-2013, 03:11 PM
  #48
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that is simply not true.. Unless you believe the garbage written by the Flyers beat writers. The Flyers made those deals because we needed a goaltender. and again we had no prospects to trade for one.
IF that's the case, why did we trade Richie AND Carter? Carter's salary would've been enough to make cap room.

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02-10-2013, 03:21 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
that is simply not true.. Unless you believe the garbage written by the Flyers beat writers. The Flyers made those deals because we needed a goaltender. and again we had no prospects to trade for one.
LOL ya, I'm sure Homer just decided to get up one morning and trade our captain for no apparent reason. He could have easily moved others to make room for a goalie if that was the reason

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02-10-2013, 04:18 PM
  #50
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Lots of armchair GM's in here. It's easy to look back and figure out if a move is good or not. But it take balls to make the moves...and PH has them. We all know that he wants to win as much as we all want them to win. And yes, sometimes he makes mistakes....like ALL of the other GM's. And for all those *****ing about making moves, you are the same ones that complain when he makes none.

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