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Wpg-Pit trade

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Old
02-09-2013, 08:45 PM
  #51
scelaton
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Originally Posted by psupens View Post
i still don't think that would be enough for Neal + Harrington. i don't think this offer would make sense for either side anyway, especially for the Pens. Neal is the type of player Evander Kane can be if he realizes his maximum potential.
For a frame of reference, 62 players in NHL history have put together a 30-goal season before the age of 21. On that list, players still currently active are: Ovechkin, Stamkos, Crosby, Kovalchuk, Malkin, Jagr, Toews, Kopitar, Rick Nash, Ryan Smyth, Jason Arnott, Marian Gaborik, Jeff Skinner, and Evander Kane. That's it.

See the above, those are Kane's comparators, not James Neal.
Jets wouldn't do this trade because Wpg needs an elite centre, not a sniper. I also have no doubt that Crosby could make Kane into a 40++ goal scorer; despite Kane's many deficiencies, he is fast, strong and can score...like only 62 other players in NHL history.

This deal doesn't happen, but not because Kane=Neal.
Good luck to you guys.


Last edited by scelaton: 02-10-2013 at 11:51 PM. Reason: typo
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02-09-2013, 08:56 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
For a frame of reference, 62 players in NHL history have put together a 30-goal season before the age of 21. On that list, players still currently active are: Ovechkin, Stamkos, Crosby, Kovalchuk, Malkin, Jagr, Toews, Kopitar, Rick Nash, Ryan Smyth, Jason Arnott, Marian Gaborik, Jeff Skinner, and Evander Kane. That's it.

See the above, those are Kane's comparitors, not James Neal.
Jets wouldn't do this trade because Wpg needs an elite centre, not a sniper. I also have no doubt that Crosby could make Kane into a 40++ goal scorer; despite Kane's many deficiencies, he is fast, strong and can score...like only 62 other players in NHL history.

This deal doesn't happen, but not because Kane=Neal.
Good luck to you guys.
Can anyone from the Winnipeg explain why the Penguins trade a player who DID score 40 goals alongside one of our centers for a player who MIGHT score 40 goals alongside one of our centers?

Nobody is disputing Kane is a great young player. But, realisitically, he adds how many goals over Neal's 40? And is that number worth the risk that he scores less than Neal?

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02-09-2013, 09:18 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
For a frame of reference, 62 players in NHL history have put together a 30-goal season before the age of 21. On that list, players still currently active are: Ovechkin, Stamkos, Crosby, Kovalchuk, Malkin, Jagr, Toews, Kopitar, Rick Nash, Ryan Smyth, Jason Arnott, Marian Gaborik, Jeff Skinner, and Evander Kane. That's it.

See the above, those are Kane's comparitors, not James Neal.
Jets wouldn't do this trade because Wpg needs an elite centre, not a sniper. I also have no doubt that Crosby could make Kane into a 40++ goal scorer; despite Kane's many deficiencies, he is fast, strong and can score...like only 62 other players in NHL history.

This deal doesn't happen, but not because Kane=Neal.
Good luck to you guys.
so that makes Kane better than Neal?

it doesn't really matter what reason you think the GMs would have for rejecting this proposal, because neither side would do this.

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02-09-2013, 09:22 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Neal's only year that was better than Kanes last season was after getting traded to Pittsburgh.

Kane got 30 goals last year with Alex Burmistrov as his center and kyle wellwood opposite, at age 20.

Before Neal got traded he had never gotten thirty goals or over 55 points which Kane did at 20. Neal was 23 when traded.

After getting to play with Malkin, the Hart trophy winner, he breaks out with a big season.

You need to factor in teams systems. Do you really think its unreasonable to think Kane would put up Neal numbers in Pitt, when he has already beat Neals best Dallas numbers?
Again ... why trade a 40-goal scorer already with Malkin for a guy that could possibly do it IF everything goes right with Malkin and him and we would have to add? Please explain yourself. It makes no sense for Pittsburgh.

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02-09-2013, 09:25 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by SuburbanRhythm View Post
Can anyone from the Winnipeg explain why the Penguins trade a player who DID score 40 goals alongside one of our centers for a player who MIGHT score 40 goals alongside one of our centers?

Nobody is disputing Kane is a great young player. But, realisitically, he adds how many goals over Neal's 40? And is that number worth the risk that he scores less than Neal?
They can't and won't. It's a lose for them if they try. I'm pretty positive these clowns have never seen James Neal play. If they did, they wouldn't be asking for Neal + for Kane. Totally asinine idea on their part.

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02-10-2013, 12:17 AM
  #56
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I'll preface this by saying there's no way that Pittsburgh should make the trade in the OP, due to the addition of a top D prospect and the respective ages/development stages of the teams: it's ridiculous to think Neal is a far superior player to Kane, whose abilities Kane might live up to. Neal had arguably the second best center in the game setting him up last year and had shown nowhere near the same offensive stats prior to playing in Pittsburgh. Kane had Wellwood-Antropov, a combination that could barely locate the offensive zone much less keep up with Kane. One of these players is a pure finisher and the other has the ability to create opportunities completely by themselves. Kane with Crosby would score 40 easily. Neal with Wellwood-Antropov would score 20-25.

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02-10-2013, 09:00 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
UMMM ... Winnipeg would be getting the best player in the deal? Why does it have to add to it. This is a joke of an idea. What planet do you live on. Do people in Winnipeg watch hockey? Obviously not this cat.

Better yet

Pittsburgh - Kane
Winnipeg - Kennedy and a first.

That is what I think the equal value ridiculous idea is.
How about a trade for goligoski you do remember that trade right wasn't niskannen in that trade also that gives you an idea of neals value,just about anyone you put with Crosby or Malkin are instant stars Neal has some big weaknesses to his game but are overshadowed if he is scoring.fans on every team ridiculously overrate there players.i agree something else would be coming back Pitts way if that trade would ever happen I was just trying to convince jets fans

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02-10-2013, 09:13 AM
  #58
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Horrible trade. The funniest part is where the pens are adding lmao

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02-10-2013, 09:45 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Zhamnov10 View Post
How about a trade for goligoski you do remember that trade right wasn't niskannen in that trade also that gives you an idea of neals value,just about anyone you put with Crosby or Malkin are instant stars Neal has some big weaknesses to his game but are overshadowed if he is scoring.fans on every team ridiculously overrate there players.i agree something else would be coming back Pitts way if that trade would ever happen I was just trying to convince jets fans
1. Niskanen was pretty much a cap dump in that trade. His days were done in Dallas. Has nothing to do with the perceived value of Neal.

2. This was all before Neal put up 40 goals with Malkin.

3. Not everyone you put with Crosby or Malkin are instant stars. There is a long list of failed winger experiments. That ridiculous statement hurts your argument.

4. In recent play that dictates current value, Neal >>> Kane. Neal is 40 goal potential winger, on a good cap hit for several years, is loved by his teammates and fans, and has darn good chemistry with Malkin. Kane is more expensive, less productive, has unknown chemistry with Sid or Geno, and has problems off the ice.

So...not only is Neal more valuable than Kane...why in the world would the Penguins want to get rid of him? Especially given the fact that in the OP's proposal we'd have to give up one of our untouchable d-prospects (Morrow, Harrington, Pouliot)?

Let me give you a basis of comparison, this would be like the Penguins asking Kunitz for Kane + one of your untouchable prospects.

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02-10-2013, 10:19 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Zhamnov10 View Post
How about a trade for goligoski you do remember that trade right wasn't niskannen in that trade also that gives you an idea of neals value,just about anyone you put with Crosby or Malkin are instant stars Neal has some big weaknesses to his game but are overshadowed if he is scoring.fans on every team ridiculously overrate there players.i agree something else would be coming back Pitts way if that trade would ever happen I was just trying to convince jets fans
So much wrong here but I will just say you have not watched Neal play (could not have) and just because the Pens got a great deal does not equate to current value.

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02-10-2013, 10:22 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by SEALBound View Post
1. Niskanen was pretty much a cap dump in that trade. His days were done in Dallas. Has nothing to do with the perceived value of Neal.

2. This was all before Neal put up 40 goals with Malkin.

3. Not everyone you put with Crosby or Malkin are instant stars. There is a long list of failed winger experiments. That ridiculous statement hurts your argument.

4. In recent play that dictates current value, Neal >>> Kane. Neal is 40 goal potential winger, on a good cap hit for several years, is loved by his teammates and fans, and has darn good chemistry with Malkin. Kane is more expensive, less productive, has unknown chemistry with Sid or Geno, and has problems off the ice.

So...not only is Neal more valuable than Kane...why in the world would the Penguins want to get rid of him? Especially given the fact that in the OP's proposal we'd have to give up one of our untouchable d-prospects (Morrow, Harrington, Pouliot)?

Let me give you a basis of comparison, this would be like the Penguins asking Kunitz for Kane + one of your untouchable prospects.
The OP and this clown you are answering have no sense of reality. They have no idea that Shero bluntly asked that he needed another d-man in the Neal deal in return and Niewendyk said fine, here is a throw in - Niskanen. His addition doesn't devalue Neal. Shero just made a smart move.

Secondly, again, these clowns continue to not answer the question ... why trade Neal, who has chemistry with Malkin and scored 40 along his side for a kid that could possibly score 40 with Geno if everything went right and has to form chemistry with him too boot. Laughable they think Kane is worth more than Neal and we have to add one of our stud D prospects. In reality, and I think Kane is someone I'd want in Pittsburgh because he could be a budding star, Winnipeg would have to add to Kane to get Neal.

They haven't watched James Neal play at all since the deal.

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02-10-2013, 10:26 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
The OP and this clown you are answering have no sense of reality. They have no idea that Shero bluntly asked that he needed another d-man in the Neal deal in return and Niewendyk said fine, here is a throw in - Niskanen. His addition doesn't devalue Neal. Shero just made a smart move.

Secondly, again, these clowns continue to not answer the question ... why trade Neal, who has chemistry with Malkin and scored 40 along his side for a kid that could possibly score 40 with Geno if everything went right and has to form chemistry with him too boot. Laughable they think Kane is worth more than Neal and we have to add one of our stud D prospects. In reality, and I think Kane is someone I'd want in Pittsburgh because he could be a budding star, Winnipeg would have to add to Kane to get Neal.

They haven't watched James Neal play at all since the deal.
Its the +Harrington part that gets me.


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02-10-2013, 12:11 PM
  #63
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The op is ridiculous because Neal has proven chemistry with Malkin, fits perfectly, and has been unbelievably productive. The people that are saying that Neal is a way better than Kane and what he aspires to be your delusional. You desperatley need to take off your homer glasses and get a grip on reality if you think Neal scores 40 with Wellwood and Burmistrov. Neal is probably the better player now but it's fairly close and Kane is 4 years younger. To say a guy is a way better player because he scored 10 more goals and 20 more points playing on one of the best teams and PP's in the league and on a line with arguably the best player in the league while the other guys is 4 years younger playing on a bad team with a bad PP and on a line with Kyle Freaking Wellwood and a 20 year old with a career high 28 points then I am speechless. As for the guy who said Kane is a 25 goal and 60 point kinda guy think about who he played with scoring 30 goals, his age, take a look at that list again and if you still believe then maybe you should watch another sport.

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02-10-2013, 12:31 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
For a frame of reference, 62 players in NHL history have put together a 30-goal season before the age of 21. On that list, players still currently active are: Ovechkin, Stamkos, Crosby, Kovalchuk, Malkin, Jagr, Toews, Kopitar, Rick Nash, Ryan Smyth, Jason Arnott, Marian Gaborik, Jeff Skinner, and Evander Kane. That's it.

See the above, those are Kane's comparitors, not James Neal.
Jets wouldn't do this trade because Wpg needs an elite centre, not a sniper. I also have no doubt that Crosby could make Kane into a 40++ goal scorer; despite Kane's many deficiencies, he is fast, strong and can score...like only 62 other players in NHL history.

This deal doesn't happen, but not because Kane=Neal.
Good luck to you guys.
That list is just as disingenious as the pure stat reciting if not more so. So you honestly believe Kane will eventually turn out to be just like Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Jagr?
As for the rest of those names, IŽd trade Neal for Kovalchuk and none of the others on that list, because I really donŽt care whether or not he can score 40g with any other center than Malkin. The Pens have Malkin. Neal absolutely no holds bared no improvement required does it for them. His is simply not the position we seek to change anything about.

Kane is a wonderful player and he has done just great so far, but it looks like he will become a 40++ goal scorer elsewhere.

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02-10-2013, 12:34 PM
  #65
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Here's the thing: this trade is not going to happen. Ray Shero and Keven Cheveldayoff post on these boards.

Both sides are happy with their guys and both have been recently extended. The whole purpose of this thread is discuss relative value of James Neal and Kane.

Looking purely at the facts, Kane's 20 year old season was the second best season these guys have had. The best was Neals, while he was playing on a line and top PP with the Hart Trophey winner.

Before playing with Malkin, Neal had never put up as good of a season as Kane did playing with Alex Burmistrov, on the second PP unit. Neal played #1 minutes on the hottest PP in the league.

Pittsburgh is a better team than Winnipeg, and Neal put up more points, but in a far more offensive system. If you put Neal in Kanes situation, he doesn't put up close to the same numbers.

Neal is a good player. He's also a sniper, and the Jets have no play maker for him. Kanes gritty style fits Winnipeg better.

The fact of the matter is Kane at 20 was better than Neal has ever been, except the year Neal gets to play on a line with the best player In the world. Interesting fact there.

Kane has more value than Neal. He's younger and put up better numbers than Neal did in a similar system. The only time Neal has proven to have more offense was when he played with the best offense in the game. Do you people not take system or line mates into your opinions at all?

Kane at 20 was better than Neal at 20-24. He has more trade value. is the difference Harrington? Probably not that much, but I'm a Harrington fan.

Neals goals per game was .1 higher than Kanes last year. That's 7 goals over the 74 games Kane played. If you don't think he would have gotten 7 more goals playing on the #1 pp with the best offensive player in the world, as opposed to a sophomore that is a black hole offensively...well simply put your out to lunch

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02-10-2013, 12:36 PM
  #66
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The op is ridiculous because Neal has proven chemistry with Malkin, fits perfectly, and has been unbelievably productive. The people that are saying that Neal is a way better than Kane and what he aspires to be your delusional. You desperatley need to take off your homer glasses and get a grip on reality if you think Neal scores 40 with Wellwood and Burmistrov. Neal is probably the better player now but it's fairly close and Kane is 4 years younger. To say a guy is a way better player because he scored 10 more goals and 20 more points playing on one of the best teams and PP's in the league and on a line with arguably the best player in the league while the other guys is 4 years younger playing on a bad team with a bad PP and on a line with Kyle Freaking Wellwood and a 20 year old with a career high 28 points then I am speechless. As for the guy who said Kane is a 25 goal and 60 point kinda guy think about who he played with scoring 30 goals, his age, take a look at that list again and if you still believe then maybe you should watch another sport.
Your first line is right on. As for the rest I don't see the vast majority of Pens fans saying Neal is way better they just question why (and this trade would never happen from a Pen's perspective) in this scenario the Pen's would be adding a top prospect. Beyond ridiculous!!

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02-10-2013, 12:48 PM
  #67
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Your first line is right on. As for the rest I don't see the vast majority of Pens fans saying Neal is way better they just question why (and this trade would never happen from a Pen's perspective) in this scenario the Pen's would be adding a top prospect. Beyond ridiculous!!
Sounds like both of you are right. Not a feasible deal as PIT doesn't get all that better.

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02-10-2013, 12:53 PM
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Firstly, how is trading a potential 40 goal scorer for an actual 40 goal scorer + fair?

Second, they need a winger for Crosby and Malkin. Trading Malkin's winger for Crosby's winger is just gonna create a hole in Malkin's wing instead of Sid's.

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02-10-2013, 12:56 PM
  #69
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Your first line is right on. As for the rest I don't see the vast majority of Pens fans saying Neal is way better they just question why (and this trade would never happen from a Pen's perspective) in this scenario the Pen's would be adding a top prospect. Beyond ridiculous!!
Exactly right.

And still, I'm waiting on a Winnipeg fan to answer the simple question ... why trade Neal, who has chemistry with Malkin and has had a 40-goal season along his side for a kid that would have to develop chemistry with him. If the chemistry doesn't form between Malkin and Kane, what do you have? You still have a very good player, but certainly not a 40-goal scorer and a player like James Neal. To make Pittsburgh add to this is utterly ridiculous to begin with.

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02-10-2013, 12:56 PM
  #70
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The deal doesn't do anything to address the Pens' needs. Right now, James Neal is the only legitimate top six winger (Kunitz is a good third wheel). So the Pens would want to add a winger in addition to James Neal. Therefore it makes no sense to swap out Neal for Kane, since the Pens will still have the exact same issue (ie. one legitimate top six winger), only now it's Kane rather than Neal as that sole scoring winger.

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02-10-2013, 01:01 PM
  #71
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I feel Pitts would get the best player in this trade. Kane would be an absolute beast with Crosby., but as a Jets fan I would do this trade in a second. He,s a beast but he's a frigging airhead too!

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02-10-2013, 01:07 PM
  #72
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The op is ridiculous because Neal has proven chemistry with Malkin, fits perfectly, and has been unbelievably productive. The people that are saying that Neal is a way better than Kane and what he aspires to be your delusional. You desperatley need to take off your homer glasses and get a grip on reality if you think Neal scores 40 with Wellwood and Burmistrov. Neal is probably the better player now but it's fairly close and Kane is 4 years younger. To say a guy is a way better player because he scored 10 more goals and 20 more points playing on one of the best teams and PP's in the league and on a line with arguably the best player in the league while the other guys is 4 years younger playing on a bad team with a bad PP and on a line with Kyle Freaking Wellwood and a 20 year old with a career high 28 points then I am speechless. As for the guy who said Kane is a 25 goal and 60 point kinda guy think about who he played with scoring 30 goals, his age, take a look at that list again and if you still believe then maybe you should watch another sport.
You are assuming there would be automatic chemistry between Malkin and Kane. What's to say there is no chemistry and Kane maintains that 25-60 type season with one of the best players in the world and we give up a guy that has chemistry and has had success with him, a 40-goal season already. Really, its a pointless move for Pittsburgh as the Pens could lose ALOT IF chemistry isn't developed. That is the key to why Pittsburgh should never ever consider this. Kane isn't an automatic to get 30 with Malkin. I don't give a **** who is centering him in Winnipeg and he has 25. Again, why trade a guy that has chemistry for a guy that might not get it with Malkin and give up a top prospect as well as a 40-goal scorer? Kane is a tremendous player, one I'd love to have in Pittsburgh. However, Pittsburgh could lose alot here and its all based on chemistry. We heard Ponikarovsky would go wild in Pittsburgh with Crosby or Malkin. He was a bust. No chemistry whatsoever.

People have is uncanny ability to come out and say if XXX (pick your 20-goal scorer on an average team with an average center) were traded to Pittsburgh and were put with Crosby or Malkin, they would all the sudden become a 35-40 goal scorer. It doesn't work that way.


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02-10-2013, 01:21 PM
  #73
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You are assuming there would be automatic chemistry between Malkin and Kane. What's to say there is no chemistry and Kane maintains that 25-60 type season with one of the best players in the world and we give up a guy that has chemistry and has had success with him, a 40-goal season already. Really, its a pointless move for Pittsburgh as the Pens could lose ALOT IF chemistry isn't developed. That is the key to why Pittsburgh should never ever consider this. Kane isn't an automatic to get 30 with Malkin. I don't give a **** who is centering him in Winnipeg and he has 25. Again, why trade a guy that has chemistry for a guy that might not get it with Malkin and give up a top prospect as well as a 40-goal scorer? Kane is a tremendous player, one I'd love to have in Pittsburgh. However, Pittsburgh could lose alot here and its all based on chemistry. We heard Ponikarovsky would go wild in Pittsburgh with Crosby or Malkin. He was a bust. No chemistry whatsoever.
You keep saying 25-60 when Kane has improved every season in his young career the trend is he will continue to improve. I think it is fair to say at worst Kane will be around a 50-60 point player now while scoring 25-35 goals.

I agree the trade makes no sense for the Pens but no need to downplay how good Kane is.

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02-10-2013, 01:27 PM
  #74
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Neal's Pittsburgh best winger by far. No way do they trade him.

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02-10-2013, 01:28 PM
  #75
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I feel Pitts would get the best player in this trade. Kane would be an absolute beast with Crosby., but as a Jets fan I would do this trade in a second. He,s a beast but he's a frigging airhead too!
I asked one question earlier that went unanswered, I'll try again.

From the Winnipeg perspective, I keep hearing Kane scored 30 with no center. And Neal only broke 40 because of Malkin.

What is the incentive for the Jets in this deal? Neal wouldn't have a setup guy, same as Kane didn't.

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