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Goaltending discussion thread (edit: Markstrom called up)

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Old
02-10-2013, 02:04 PM
  #176
Dread Clawz
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Originally Posted by JonathanHuberdoh View Post
Totally agree on the QB thing, but that's OT as hell.

And I'm also in total agreement with you about the quality of players this franchise has iced over its 20 year history. We've been a team of 3rd liners FOREVER. Even when we made the Cup Finals we were a bunch of checkers who just had the right stuff at the right time. No one on that team was a "sniper" except for MAYBE Ray Sheppard

Even now, we have an abundance of 3rd liners. Smithson/Skille/Matthias are all almost identical players. We can't win games consistently with Drew Shore on our 2nd line. He's just not there yet. Too many of our guys are inconsistent. There's only a few names I would throw out that I'm actually happy with their effort (Flash, Kopy, Skille, Matthias and Strachan). Everyone else has had nights off or nights where they just decided not to show up. Regardless of this, we need more offensive talent. Last year when we started out the season we were all in awe of this team because they actually had some sort of cohesion in the offensive zone after watching 10 years of chickens with their heads cut off running around. But that still wasn't enough. We need more talent. It's in the wings, but we need to add to that talent as well from outside sources to continue to develop that offense. Nick Bjugstad will not develop and sort of offensive game on a line with Jack Skille and Scottie Upshall.


Besides all of that, I still think Marky should come up. Right now our guys aren't getting it done, but neither are our goaltenders. Let's infuse some new blood into the lineup. It worked when Shore came up, why not try Marky out?
I hate to pick nits, but I have to point out that Mellanby was a near 40 goal scorer in the dead puck era and Sheppard was a perennial 40-50 goal scorer.

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02-10-2013, 02:43 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
as i said in my response to erick, the first 6 games were a team playing without a system, likely due to the shortened training camp. all teams went through it, but it apparently hit ours harder than anyone.

when the team has gotten their system in place, they've played well, and look like a legitimately good team.

that's my belief anyway, and why i feel the way i do. there's no reason to believe the team will go into blatant disorganization and individual play unless dineen just loses the locker room, and i obviously see no reason to believe he will.



.

fair enough. it's the most important position in hockey, and that's not debatable.

Also, I think most would agree the Panthers have had above to well-above average goaltending throughout their history. Where has it taken us? No where. Missed the playoffs for 10 years. Why? Because the skaters havent been good enough. Same thing is happening now


no, it's not. like i said to erick - of course good goalies need a good team. it's a team game. but a good team needs a good a good goalie, too.

we haven't had that of late, and i dont think we can afford to wait around and hope we do.
A good team needs a good goalie and we haven't got that? Our team sucks. What are you talking about?

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02-10-2013, 04:52 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
I honestly do not know how to quote paragraph by paragraph on here so I won't even try. I will try to give my answer to your main points, though.

1. We're clearly not the same type of person. You would prefer to cite Dan Weiss opinion instead of looking at actual stats which only validate Dan Weiss opinion, in the first place. I would prefer to take both into account, placing more of an emphasis on the statistics. You can say statistics are sometimes taken out of context - true. But, Dan Weiss is also not a scout, himself. Dan Weiss also thinks that DGM has stolen plenty of points for the Rampage this year. What Dan Weiss sees might not be the same thing you see if you get to see it, and what you see is not necessarily fact, anyway. There are flaws to both methods of evaluation, but less so with statistics. There's never been a goalie considered to be good who's put up consistently bad statistics. Goalies (and players, in general) are paid based on both what scouts have seen from them AND PAST STATISTICS. Why you ignore statistics, I don't know. Better put, you only seem to ignore them when they don't suit your argument. You've used statistics plenty in this thread when they're convenient for you. Rather hypocritical if you ask me, but whatever.
first of all - obviously dan weiss is not a scout. but anyone with any basic sense of hockey knowledge can tell when a goalie is keeping their teams in games and when they're struggling. it's not rocket science. there are some complex aspects about hockey, but that's not one of them. trying to question the validity of his opinion based on that argument is idiotic.

second - statistics obviously have their use for evaluation of a players past production. but that doesn't guarantee future production. people here keep clamoring how clemmensen went 14-6 last year, thus hes a good goalie. i can cite you hundreds of terrible goalies who have had one or two good statistical seasons. brian elliot was one of them. he looks absolutely atrocious this year...like the brian elliot we all used to know and love. robert esche was terrible and went 21-11. john grahame was terrible and also had a good season or two. there's countless others, those are just off the top of my head. i'm not going to do vast research to prove a point that's ridiculously obvious. yes good goalies will have great numbers. but that does not mean a bad goalie can't have good numbers, too.


and lastly, i have not used statistics to prove my point, there's nothing hypocritical about my argument. i never cited markstrom's save %, GAA or record. any other meaningful statistical argument has been presented. the only ones that have been used are brief and passing stats, such as markstrom playing 100+ games, thus being NHL ready.

don't put words into my mouth.



Quote:
3. You are overreacting. Your Jonathan Quick example is actually wonderful. Jonathan Quick (and btw, Jonathan Quick was most important in LA's cup run, but LA also had a good team in front of him/part of his struggles this year have to do with injuries to the D core he had in front of him last year)...Jonathan Quick was great last year. This year, in the small sample of play thus far, he has not been great. Based on your logic, does that mean that Jonathan Quick should no longer be the #1 in LA? After all, they have a prospect in Jonathan Bernier. Why don't they give him a chance? Quick is struggling so it must be time to panic?


that's an incredibly stupid argument, considering Bernier is their backup. if they want, they can start him if they so choose and ride the hot hand. this is all i'm asking for. not for a clean unseating of Theodore.

unfortunately for them, bernier looked absolutely awful the one game he played in vs Anaheim. so they don't have much of a hot hand to ride.

Quote:
4. Tim Thomas was great for the Bruins. But the Bruins are also great without Tim Thomas. Could it be that the Bruins are pretty ****ing good and any solid goalie could win a lot of games for that team? The team in front of the goaltender is just as important as the goaltender. Elite teams win Cups, not teams that just rely on goalies to bail them out, so let's not just single out the goaltender for a team's success.
are you seriously this dense?

i've said countless times that a good goalie obviously needs a good team in front of them. but a good team cannot win without a good goalie, either.

what's so hard to understand about that?

and the bruins are still great without tim thomas because they have Tuuka Rask, who IMO, is one of the most talented goalies in the NHL.

would they have the same record if they had a goalie playing the way Theodore and Clemmensen have been playing this year? NO

Quote:
You keep bringing up 5-game sample sizes. I'm not sure why you keep disagreeing with this, but your argument is based on a small sample size.
my argument is not entirely based off a 5 game sample size. markstrom is a better goalie than clemmensen at his absolute best. the 5 game sample size is just fuel to the fire as to why it needs to happen now.

the team is struggling with its goaltending and dug itself a hole with the terrible start. they need all the help they can get, as quickly as they can get it.


Quote:
Furthermore, hockey is a business, as well. We just signed Scott Clemmensen (mind you, I didn't like the contract) for 2 years. This happened and we have to live with it.

Waiving Scott Clemmensen makes little sense and is unnecessary.
-Theo is likely gone after this year so we're going to need a backup after the year, anyway. Why would we pay Clemmensen next year to not be on our team while also having to pay for a backup who might not even be as good next year to be on our team? There's a reason why we're fans and not GM's. That's bad business.
okay - so if you were GM we'd still have mike santorelli, matt bradley, steven reinprecht and whatever other scrubs we've bought out/demoted and payed a replacement player all while doing so...just because it's bad business?

buyouts happen all the time. paying clemmensen half of his marginal salary next year wont kill us. and would be well worth it if it helps us make the playoffs.

Quote:
-Loyalty. Scott Clemmensen is the same guy who won this team 14 games last year. You don't just waive him TWO STARTS after he just signed his new contract. That, too, is bad business. We want the Florida Panthers to be an attractive place for future free agents, as well. We should also acknowledge that TWO STARTS is a ridiculously small sample size and that history suggests that Clemmensen is an NHL-caliber goaltender. Becoming the Miami Marlins of the NHL is not what we want to be.

the business argument works both ways. if there is someone doing your job better than you are, you're going to lose your job. i don't care who you are or when you signed your contract...it happens. the Stars signed (not re-signed, signed as a UFA) Donald Audette to a 4-yr deal and traded him like 10 games into his tenure there because he didn't fit. it happens.

Clemmensen knew when he signed the contract who was in the minors. he knew it was a possibility he'd lose his job. he signed the deal anyway. it's a business, and this move wouldn't make the Panthers any less of an attractive destination to UFA's because Scott Clemmensen lost his job. he's a marginal player, and this stuff happens to marginal players all the time.


Last edited by flapanthersfan: 02-10-2013 at 05:06 PM.
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02-10-2013, 04:55 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by nhlfan9191 View Post
A good team needs a good goalie and we haven't got that? Our team sucks. What are you talking about?
i was quoting jakethesnake, and hit "bold" by accident. i didn't say the bolded part, he did.


Last edited by flapanthersfan: 02-10-2013 at 05:08 PM.
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02-10-2013, 04:58 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
It worked last year under a similar team and the same system. Why can't it work again? Do people really expect Theodore and Clemmensen to post save %'s under 90 all year? C'mon, these guys are better than this, too. We know that they're better than this.
are you going to continue to ignore the fact that Theodore has been incredibly erratic his entire career?

i love the guy and want him to improve and be the goalie he was last year. but i'm not willing to bet our entire season on it occurring like you apparently are.

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02-10-2013, 05:00 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Luis Gudbrunson View Post
I don't think anyone is accepting weakness in goal. More like questioning the existence of weakness in goal.
who's doing that? is someone here really blind enough to deny that Theodore and Clemmensen have been abysmal lately?

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02-10-2013, 05:03 PM
  #182
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For flapanthersfan:

We won't ever agree on the main point of this thread and that's fine.

But I will say this; buying out Clemmensen would be idiotic and grounds for a termination.

You waive him and if he gets picked up, so long. If not, you assign him to San Antonio and you still maintain your decent depth at the position.

IMO, buying him out is not an option.

Now a buyout over the summer probably isn't that bad of an idea (if he can't be dealt for a bag of practice pucks) so long as you have a legit NHL goalie to replace Theo.

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02-10-2013, 05:08 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by RampageNate View Post
For flapanthersfan:

We won't ever agree on the main point of this thread and that's fine.

But I will say this; buying out Clemmensen would be idiotic and grounds for a termination.

You waive him and if he gets picked up, so long. If not, you assign him to San Antonio and you still maintain your decent depth at the position.

IMO, buying him out is not an option.

Now a buyout over the summer probably isn't that bad of an idea (if he can't be dealt for a bag of practice pucks) so long as you have a legit NHL goalie to replace Theo.
Well we can't buyout anyone until after the season anyways. I'm not sure if that's what he's saying or not, I'm not reading through all that lol.

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02-10-2013, 05:12 PM
  #184
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lets make this easy for everyone here, since a lot of posters are struggling with a very simple concept:

Jose Theodore is struggling. we need some insurance until he finds his game.

Jacob Markstrom is a better goaltender than Scott Clemmensen

thus, Jacob Markstrom should be in the NHL and getting a chance to play until Theodore finds his game.

we can go round and round of the semantics of statistics and other garbage, but unless anyone here can disprove any of these concepts, don't bother responding. you're accomplishing nothing.

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02-10-2013, 05:15 PM
  #185
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You wouldn't even have to buyout Clemmensen in the off-season. I'm sure there will be a team who wouldn't mind taking him as a backup with 1 year remaining on his contract in the off-season.

Buyouts are for getting horrible money off the books -- not getting rid of a player who has only one year left.

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02-10-2013, 05:15 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by RampageNate View Post
For flapanthersfan:

We won't ever agree on the main point of this thread and that's fine.

But I will say this; buying out Clemmensen would be idiotic and grounds for a termination.

You waive him and if he gets picked up, so long. If not, you assign him to San Antonio and you still maintain your decent depth at the position.

IMO, buying him out is not an option.

Now a buyout over the summer probably isn't that bad of an idea (if he can't be dealt for a bag of practice pucks) so long as you have a legit NHL goalie to replace Theo.
you can't buy out a player during the season. there's a reason i said to "demote" him in the original post.

trading him would be the best option, then waiving him, then demoting him if all others fail.

DGM can handle the load in SA until next year, where we'd have to add another goalie. (unless we can acquire one with a two-way deal in a trade for clemmensen)

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02-10-2013, 06:00 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Dr Beinfest View Post
You wouldn't even have to buyout Clemmensen in the off-season. I'm sure there will be a team who wouldn't mind taking him as a backup with 1 year remaining on his contract in the off-season.

Buyouts are for getting horrible money off the books -- not getting rid of a player who has only one year left.
Idk, I have a hard time believing anyone would even give a 7th round pick for Clemmensen. There are other better backup goalies out there who could be signed for cheaper.

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02-10-2013, 06:09 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by jakethesnake23 View Post
I strongly agree with your first point. The two guys probably played about as well as they could. I remember with Theodore over the first 20 or so games I thought he didnt let in a single weak goal. Not one. He was far beyong what I expected and was simply lights out.

It's not unreasonable to suggest that they cant duplicate the years they had. Great point. Im just not sure Jake is the answer right now.

They and the entire team, need to step the ******* up
Thanks. & agreed.

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02-10-2013, 08:57 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Dr Beinfest View Post
You wouldn't even have to buyout Clemmensen in the off-season. I'm sure there will be a team who wouldn't mind taking him as a backup with 1 year remaining on his contract in the off-season.

Buyouts are for getting horrible money off the books -- not getting rid of a player who has only one year left.
Colby Armstrong is a good example of a smaller buyout.

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02-10-2013, 09:45 PM
  #190
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Buying out Clemmensen won't happen. Period. Do you realize how stupid it will make Tallon/Santos look if they sign a guy to a 2 year contract, then after 1 year, they approach ownership and ask for a cheque to pay out the remainder of his salary? Not happening.

Buyouts are for guys like Redden and Gomez who are eating cap space and clearly don't have a job on the team.

Unless he's traded or sent down, Clemm is on this team through next year.

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02-10-2013, 09:48 PM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
lets make this easy for everyone here, since a lot of posters are struggling with a very simple concept:

Jose Theodore is struggling. we need some insurance until he finds his game.

Jacob Markstrom is a better goaltender than Scott Clemmensen

thus, Jacob Markstrom should be in the NHL and getting a chance to play until Theodore finds his game.

we can go round and round of the semantics of statistics and other garbage, but unless anyone here can disprove any of these concepts, don't bother responding. you're accomplishing nothing.
Is that the consensus on these forums so far? From the GDTs and my own observations seems like it's been our Defense and not so much Theo. That coupled with our history of low scoring. There's also the possibility that I'm blind and/or stupid.

Thanks for letting me know when I can and cannot respond.

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02-11-2013, 01:50 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
Idk, I have a hard time believing anyone would even give a 7th round pick for Clemmensen. There are other better backup goalies out there who could be signed for cheaper.
I don't. I also don't find it hard to believe a team would give 'future considerations' for Scott Clemmensen.

Imagine a team trying to reach the cap floor and in need of filling a backup goaltender position, or just even a team not willing to go internally for a backup and needing one but not being able to find the right fit.

I agree there are a lot of good backup goalies out there but I don't think teams would show no interest at all in a veteran goaltender like Scott Clemmensen.

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02-11-2013, 02:07 AM
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luis Gudbrunson View Post
Is that the consensus on these forums so far? From the GDTs and my own observations seems like it's been our Defense and not so much Theo. That coupled with our history of low scoring. There's also the possibility that I'm blind and/or stupid.

Thanks for letting me know when I can and cannot respond.
First few games I could say it was our defense, but Theo has not been nearly at the same level that he was last year.

Signs of greatness then back to struggling. He doesn't fight puck anywhere near the way Clemmer does, but he's struggling.

I'm sorry but a 3.41 GAA and .890 save% are absolutely terrible stats, especially for a team who NEEDS great goaltending to stay relevant. Guys he's 37 this year. He played much better than anyone could have expected last season, but he's pushing 40. I don't know if he can continue playing at that pace ala Ed Belfour.

Can we really afford to sit around and wait for one of our goalies to "find their rhythm"? We're 1/4th of the way into the season.

We can stick with Theo and hope he turns it around, but if his GAA continues to hover above 3, this team is picking top-3 this season because we do not have the offence to make up for it.

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02-11-2013, 04:48 AM
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luis Gudbrunson View Post
Is that the consensus on these forums so far? From the GDTs and my own observations seems like it's been our Defense and not so much Theo. That coupled with our history of low scoring. There's also the possibility that I'm blind and/or stupid.

Thanks for letting me know when I can and cannot respond.
no problem

im growing frustrated with the responses - people are nitpicking points but sidestepping the main premise. debating semantics is pointless.

theodore has not been not playing well lately. he was great the first 3 games he started, but since then he hasn't been good. there is something wrong with his technique, and i'm not a goaltending coach so i can't pinpoint it exactly, but i know enough about the position (having played it for 20+ years, competitively) to see it. just about every weak goal has been on his blocker side when shooters are coming off his left side. he's leaving too much room short side in those situations. it almost looks like he's guessing, but he's not (no goalie at this level does that...obviously) the sulzer goal in particular in buffalo was laughably bad.

he needs to correct it quickly or we're in trouble, unless of course, our management is listening and give a certain someone a chance to step in while theo finds his game. but we don't have much time for him to figure it out or we're going to get buried.

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02-11-2013, 05:02 AM
  #195
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Wouldn't having Markstrom come up motivate both Theo and Clemmer?

Isn't that what this damn franchise preaches? Accountability? Since when do goalies not have to be accountable? Sure our team isn't great but come on. That GAA is just awful, and Save% is a better indication of how goaltenders do on bad teams (at .890%, nothing to write home about).

If Marky comes in a steal a couple of games, will it not motivate Theo to excel more? Even Clemmer? Isn't that why Skille has played the last two over Kovalev? He's put more effort in and gets the ice time because of it.

I know our goalies are a little more important than our 4th liners, but if you don't see goaltending as a problem (one of many) with this team, you are blind. We have a chance to maybe fix it with a young guy in the minors. Why not take the chance? I still haven't had a single soul reply to me and tell me "Why not?!"

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02-11-2013, 10:21 AM
  #196
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I don't think Markie will come up , it's a short season, we are a fringe team , he has the guaranteed spot next season barring some unforeseen debacle therefore it's not necessary just ride our present goalies contract and next season is a clean slate for what we all hope will be a new era

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02-11-2013, 12:20 PM
  #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
lets make this easy for everyone here, since a lot of posters are struggling with a very simple concept:

Jose Theodore is struggling. we need some insurance until he finds his game.

Jacob Markstrom is a better goaltender than Scott Clemmensen

thus, Jacob Markstrom should be in the NHL and getting a chance to play until Theodore finds his game.

we can go round and round of the semantics of statistics and other garbage, but unless anyone here can disprove any of these concepts, don't bother responding. you're accomplishing nothing.
Not really. The defense is playing crappy in front of him and he's kept us in a lot of games, solely by standing on his head. Look at the last Flyers game. He was incredible. Has he been perfect? No. But to say he's struggling because he's had a few bad games (and more good games than bad ones) is unfair.

That's not to say I don't support calling up Markstrom. I wholeheartedly do. But Theodore has not been nearly as bad as his defense has been in front of him.

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02-11-2013, 01:14 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
no problem

im growing frustrated with the responses - people are nitpicking points but sidestepping the main premise. debating semantics is pointless.

theodore has not been not playing well lately. he was great the first 3 games he started, but since then he hasn't been good. there is something wrong with his technique, and i'm not a goaltending coach so i can't pinpoint it exactly, but i know enough about the position (having played it for 20+ years, competitively) to see it. just about every weak goal has been on his blocker side when shooters are coming off his left side. he's leaving too much room short side in those situations. it almost looks like he's guessing, but he's not (no goalie at this level does that...obviously) the sulzer goal in particular in buffalo was laughably bad.

he needs to correct it quickly or we're in trouble, unless of course, our management is listening and give a certain someone a chance to step in while theo finds his game. but we don't have much time for him to figure it out or we're going to get buried.
What semantics? You're asking people to take your opinion/observations as fact. Many don't feel Theodore is struggling as much as you feel he is. Wouldn't you think if it was as obvious as you say, more people would agree? I'm willing to admit that I might be wrong though, I'll watch highlights and look for that tendency you mentioned.

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02-11-2013, 01:21 PM
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Erick
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For what it's worth, I would have no problem with calling Markstrom up and giving him a good amount of starts. I would have no problem with that at all.

As I said, I never liked the Clemmensen contract to begin with.

With that said, all I'm saying is that the sample is still small. Our goaltenders are better than their current stats indicate, and there's a business side to the sport, as well. I don't think Clemmensen should be compared to the Santorelli contract, for example. Santorelli has been attrocious for a long time now. He's clearly not an NHL player. Clemmensen, on the other hand, is good enough to be a backup for a lot of teams. I'm not sure it's good business to trade a guy just two starts after he just signed a new contract, sorry. There's a reason Florida has become a more attractive spot for free agents. Tallon, etc. don't treat players that way.

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02-11-2013, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erick View Post
For what it's worth, I would have no problem with calling Markstrom up and giving him a good amount of starts. I would have no problem with that at all.

As I said, I never liked the Clemmensen contract to begin with.

With that said, all I'm saying is that the sample is still small. Our goaltenders are better than their current stats indicate, and there's a business side to the sport, as well. I don't think Clemmensen should be compared to the Santorelli contract, for example. Santorelli has been attrocious for a long time now. He's clearly not an NHL player. Clemmensen, on the other hand, is good enough to be a backup for a lot of teams. I'm not sure it's good business to trade a guy just two starts after he just signed a new contract, sorry. There's a reason Florida has become a more attractive spot for free agents. Tallon, etc. don't treat players that way.
I think its not even just about a "good business" move or not. Also, its about how our treatment of players as an organization becomes known around the league and Tallon strongly believes in doing that the right way. Guys like Havlat stated before how Tallon treats players very positively and they believe in a guy like that (same reason Campbell came to play for him twice now). Tallon preaches that he wants players with character and I believe thats why he re-signed Clemmensen.

So just discarding Clemmer via waivers would not be looked upon favorably nor would just trading him with only 2 starts in this season. I'm sure no one would look down on us trading him at the deadline if we're out of contention or even the offseason. If we're going to call up Markstrom at any point, it would be after the trade deadline and we've already moved a goalie.

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