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Is Teemu Selanne a top 10 forward of all time?

View Poll Results: Is Teemu Selanne a Top 10 forward of all time
Yes 54 15.43%
No 296 84.57%
Voters: 350. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-10-2013, 11:20 AM
  #51
Oan
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Yes because the era a player played in has no impact as to how his scoring totals will look like. Dominance is relative to the era they played in. Selanne isn't even close to being one of the most dominant players of all time. For example only a complete idiot would argue Ron Francis is top 10 or better than Beliveau, by your logic he is though. Selanne is an amazing player who belongs in the Hall of Fame, does that make him a top 10 player? No. Given the vast history of the NHL it doesn't even ensure him a spot in the top 50 of all time.
You seem to be ignoring his international resume also completely, you have to factor that in too in this "all time" thingy. He is all time leading Olympic scorer, and won the whole scoring in 98 and 06.

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02-10-2013, 11:20 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
Not even remotely close. I don't even think he makes my top 50 forwards, let alone top 10.
In that case, you can keep that list for yourself and treasure it, because nobody else agrees with it. And do note that I don't think Selšnne is a top 10 player.

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02-10-2013, 11:25 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by RorschachWJK View Post
Yes...and we are talking about a guy who played through all of the dead puck, defense first era. This means his adjusted stats will look even better when he is done with his career. He also played through an era with very stiff competition at forward, hence not many personal titles. Team achievements on the other hand are team achievements and don't hold that much water.
The dead puck era was around what scoring was for most seasons in modern NHL history. The 70's was a little bit higher scoring and the 80s obviously were something else, but during the 30's to 60's it was typically in the range of the 90's. Selanne also in comparision to his peers was never the most prolific point producer year after year (although always very good with a few elite seasons). Why are you saying anything about team achievments to me?

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02-10-2013, 11:27 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by RorschachWJK View Post
I'm not thinking Selšnne is a top 10 forward, but get out of here! Lafleur is the only one on that list that is better and it is not a big difference. This is not only about NHL, also about international play. This is also about career, not only peak or prime. I think Selšnne is definitely in top 20, if not top 15.
I'm not going to start defending every player on that list but i would suggest you don't remember Hawerchuck in the 80's, Johnny Bucyk has a very strong argument, and that perhaps Red Kelly was a bit better than you realize...

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02-10-2013, 11:28 AM
  #55
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well it's the old trophy and cup counting arguments out there once again.

All trophies measure exactly one season in time.

While I agree that he probably isn't a top 10 guy don't go lumping him in with Lucky Luc and Hull.

His entire career and body of work, NHL, playoffs, international play top 10 in scoring lists per season far outweigh what either Hull or Luc accomplished.
I believe that was Bobby, not Brett that he was listing. And he was not as dominant as Bobby Hull.

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02-10-2013, 11:43 AM
  #56
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If injuries didn't plague him like they did, top 20 wouldn't even be a question.

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02-10-2013, 11:52 AM
  #57
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Not even close.

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02-10-2013, 11:56 AM
  #58
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I feel like some people have a somewhat disinformed view on Selanne's career. No, he did not lead the league in goals two times or win one Rocket Richard Trophy (well, this is technically true but only because the trophy didnt exist). He has lead the league in goals three times, a feat accomplished outside of Gretzky/Lemieux by 7 people in NHL history (which of only 2 are relatively contemporary players in Brett Hull and Pavel Bure).
On top of that he has been 2nd in goal scoring losing the race by 1 goal but playing in 3 less games as the leader (also has finished 3rd and several other top10 finishes).

Then we have to take into account that he has lost 2 Art Ross trophies to Mario Lemieux and Jaromir Jagr (Who both are somewhat statistical anomalies and certainly a lot better competition that some art ross winners have had)

He also has the prestige of being the all time points leader in best-on-best Olympic competition as well as owning NHL records in both rookie and old-timer categories.
Also, his massive career totals are diminished by 3 lockouts and serious achilles/knee injuries (which also adds a big what-if factor to his career if you are into that sort of thing a la lindros/forsberg etc)

He gets some unfounded flak for his playoff success based on the 'lost years' in SJ/Col where he was crippled by serious injury. The fact is he played in 21 playoff games in his prime scoring 20points (13 goals) and is a Stanley Cup champion (scoring arguably the most important goal in ducks history).

I know he isnt a top 10 forward or a top 30 player in NHL history, but he is safely in the conversation for top20ish forward and top 70ish player. His resume speaks for himself.


edit: this was a reply to some people calling him a top50 forward and comparing him to Robitaille. Both statements are obviously false.

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02-10-2013, 12:13 PM
  #59
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I would be interested in seeing the top 10 forward list for anyone who voted yes. Obviously Selanne is an all-time great, but cracking such a list is a tall order. Unfortunately Selanne was part of that great generation that was hobbled by injuries along with Lindros, Forsberg, Kariya and Bure.

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02-10-2013, 01:16 PM
  #60
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No. As good as Selanne has been in his career he's not even close to being a top 10 forward of all-time in NHL history.

Here's mine for the record:

1) Gretzky
2) Howe
3) Lemieux
4) Beliveau
5) Bobby Hull
6) Richard
7) Mikita
8) Morenz
9) Clarke
10) Jagr

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02-10-2013, 01:20 PM
  #61
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Nope, he's probably in the top 30, maybe top 20 but top 10 is definitely a stretch.

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02-10-2013, 02:05 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by kihei View Post
I could see Teemu landing just in or just outside the top twenty. Something like:

Gretzky
Lemieux
Howe
Richard
Hull
Beliveau
Messier
Lafleur
Esposito
Jagr
Bossy
Trottier
Forsberg
Sakic
Yzerman
Mikita
Kurri
Clarke
Dionne/Selanne
I agree with this.

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02-10-2013, 02:43 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by RorschachWJK View Post
I'm not thinking Selšnne is a top 10 forward, but get out of here! Lafleur is the only one on that list that is better and it is not a big difference. This is not only about NHL, also about international play. This is also about career, not only peak or prime. I think Selšnne is definitely in top 20, if not top 15.
The rest can be put to argument... but... really, you'd put Teemu Selanne ahead of Howie Morenz?

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02-10-2013, 03:25 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by wally31 View Post
Wayne Gretzky, 894
Gordie Howe, 801
Brett Hull, 741
Marcel Dionne, 731
Phil Esposito, 717
Mike Gartner, 708
Mark Messier, 694
Steve Yzerman, 692
Mario Lemieux, 690
Luc Robitaille, 668

He's definitely top 20 NHL forwards of all time... Maybe top 15... Either way, he's a first ballot HHF.
Guy Lafleur
Jean Belliveau
Maurice Richard

are all guys I'd put ahead of him easily as well

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02-10-2013, 03:37 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by skroonk2002 View Post
Hull, at his peak, was a more lethal scorer than Selanne.
His 3 year peak is slightly better than Temmu yes in terms of goal scoring but the gap isn't really that big.

Hull's peak he was 1,1,1 in goal scoring
Temmu was 2,1,1

Quote:
He also accumulated better career numbers and more Stanley Cups.
As for the two SC that Brett played on, he was not the major piece on those teams and singed as a free agent. He has a better playoff record than Temmu but also has played on teams with better support as well.

Career numbers slightly favour Brett in pure counting stats

Brett 1269-741-650-1391
Temmu 1351-666-750-1416

Here they are adjusted

Brett 738-652-1390
Temmu 708-782-1490 (not including the current season)

Quote:
Plus, a Hart Trophy. During a season when Gretzky was only 30, Lemieux was 25, and Messier was 30. Hull scored 86 goals that season, and went 50-in-50.
Gretzky outscored Hull 163-131 and the top 3 voting went like this

Brett Hull 277 (44-18-3)
Wayne Gretzky 220 (20-37-9)
Ed Belfour 63 (2-7-32)

Lemieux played in 26 games and had 44 points so Hull wasn't competing with him.

Dido Messier who played in only 53 games.

Just to give some perspective let's look at the year before and the year after when Brett led the NHL in goals but didn't win the Hart.

89-90

Mark Messier 227 (29-24-10)
Ray Bourque 225 (29-26-2)
Brett Hull 80 (4-9-33) 80-72-41-113
Wayne Gretzky 16 (1-2-5) 73-40-102- 142
Pat LaFontaine 8 (0-1-5) 74-54- 51-105
Patrick Roy 8 (0-1-5)
Steve Yzerman 3 (0-0-3) 62-65-127


Mario wasn't in the voting but had a 59-45-78-123 line and would have finished ahead of Hull if he had played in say 7 or 8 more games and probably won it all playing the whole season.

Brett was the golden boy and guys getting assists like Wayne and Adam Oates weren't getting the love.

No idea on why Brett finished ahead of Stevie Y that year.

Now onto 91-92

Mark Messier 341 (67-2-0)
Patrick Roy 105 (1-27-19)
Brett Hull 49 (1-12-8) 73-70-39-109
Kirk McLean 37 (0-11-4)
Mario Lemieux 29 (0-7-8) 64-44- 87-131
Jeremy Roenick 29 (0-5-14)
Steve Yzerman 10 (0-2-4)
Kevin Stevens 4 (0-1-1)
Doug Gilmour 3 (0-1-0)
Trevor Linden 3 (0-1-0)
Brian Leetch 3 (0-0-3)
Scott Stevens 3 (0-0-3)
Ray Bourque 1 (0-0-1)
Tim Cheveldae 1 (0-0-1)
Bob Essensa 1 (0-0-1)
Dale Hunter 1 (0-0-1)
Pat LaFontaine 1 (0-0-1)

Two goalies in the top 4 tells us that it wasn't the "typical season" for Hart voting and once again no love for the play makers Wayne 74-31-90-121 or Oates.

Heck Leetch had 7 less points than Brett and had 3 third place votes.
Roeinick playing a gritty two way game finished 6 and only 6 points behind Hull.

Just like the flavor of the day and the 2 Norris trophies that Langway received in the early 80's, Brett's Hart and 3 year streak was a flavor of the day type of thing and if voters kept with a standard measurement of voting on players we would not see Hull doing so well in hart voting.

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02-10-2013, 03:49 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
He's probably not even a top 10 RW of all time.

Definitely better than Selanne (6): Gordie Howe, Maurice Richard, Jaromir Jagr, Guy Lafleur, Mike Bossy, Bill Cook

Probably better than Selanne (4): Sergei Makarov, Bernie Geoffrion, Andy Bathgate, Charlie Conacher

Debatable (3): Jari Kurri, Boris Mikhailov, Brett Hull
Just curious on what kind of metrics you are using in ball park terms?

Temmu's career has been a bit disjointed and if his Avs year comes at the beginning or end of his career do we look at him differently?

There are also 2 Guy Lafleur, the peak guy on the best team in hockey (albeit he was the focal point) and the pre peak 3 year guy an d post peak injured guy. If only peak matters I can see Guy being up there but as a career guy....

Temmu seems to suffer from a reputation much like Joe Thorton does and it will be interesting to see how both players do in our wingers and centers project but I'm pretty sure how the deck will be stacked already.

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02-10-2013, 03:54 PM
  #67
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No, and I'm a Ducks fan. Top 25

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02-10-2013, 03:54 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Just a terrific and well thought out response. BTW he's right Selanne isn't even a sure bet to be a top 50 forward. People forget about some of these guys but there are players like Sittler, Keon, Cournoyer, Gefferion, Hawerchuck, Bucyk, Kurri, Francis, Bure, Kelly, Shutt, Lafleur, Lach, Morenz, ect... that are very arguably in his range of greatness (or well above). I could list 50 or close to it players that were better or at least arguably better than Selanne. I can't believe how overrated he is if people think he's close to top 10.
Let's take Kelly out as his greatness was mostly as a Dman, most of those guys you mentioned have huge holes in their resumes when stacked up against Temmu, even if you only take each players best 5 year stretch or peak, Temmu is better than 3/4 of those guys you mentioned period. Career wise it's a whole other matter. Just for fun think of 50 forwards who are better all time, after 15 or so the arguments are going to get pretty weak.

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02-10-2013, 03:59 PM
  #69
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Looks like a resounding collective "no".

I'd have him somewhere in the 20-30 range. Jagr makes my top 10 though.

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02-10-2013, 04:02 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Let's take Kelly out as his greatness was mostly as a Dman, most of those guys you mentioned have huge holes in their resumes when stacked up against Temmu, even if you only take each players best 5 year stretch or peak, Temmu is better than 3/4 of those guys you mentioned period. Career wise it's a whole other matter. Just for fun think of 50 forwards who are better all time, after 15 or so the arguments are going to get pretty weak.
He did say 50 players, not forwards..

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02-10-2013, 04:16 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
The dead puck era was around what scoring was for most seasons in modern NHL history. The 70's was a little bit higher scoring and the 80s obviously were something else, but during the 30's to 60's it was typically in the range of the 90's. Selanne also in comparision to his peers was never the most prolific point producer year after year (although always very good with a few elite seasons). Why are you saying anything about team achievments to me?
Let's take 93-99, his 1st 7 NHL seasons and also including his 1st major injury as well

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Well look there 2nd in points to Jagr and 1st in goals to Jagr as well.

7 years is a pretty large sample don't you think?

Let's take 10 years 93-02, Temmu's 1st ten years in the league.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

3rd in total points and 2nd in goals.

Now let's look at 03-12 the back stretch of his career.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

25th in points and 14th in goals and this is his career from age 32 onwards.

Just for fun and to comapre to 06 type players who played in a Canadian only NHL we will take out US and Non Candian players

I kept Heatley in and took out the other scorers from Europe, Selanne ranked 7th in goals scored form 03-12 among Canadian born players.

Doing the same point wise he came in 14th in points.

Not sure which Selanne you are looking at but he is a beast among his competition pure and simple.

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02-10-2013, 04:19 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg View Post
He did say 50 players, not forwards..
Fair enough, another guy earlier said 50 forwards, with my head cold I should have checked.

In fairness though to keep standards more simple it is easier to compare forwards to forwards and other positions to themselves as well.

For one thing a Dman or Goalie can generally age better and have a longer prime than goal scoring forwards but obviously Selanne is the exception here.

Note: Eskimo44 actually did say top 50 forwards

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02-10-2013, 04:53 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by praisealfie11 View Post
hes close if you look at the all time scoring list he's 5 points short of 15th, and there's 2 d-men in there so he's 13th among forwards. recchi is in there selanne is better than him and better than mikita IMO so that bring him to 11th... if he's not top 10 he's top 15 or at the very least top 20

And he'll have missed two whole seasons' worth of games due to lockouts.

1/2 season in '95
No season in '05
1/2 season this year.

In my opinion, people underestimate just how great he's been. Easily 1st ballot HoF.

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02-10-2013, 05:12 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Let's take Kelly out as his greatness was mostly as a Dman, most of those guys you mentioned have huge holes in their resumes when stacked up against Temmu, even if you only take each players best 5 year stretch or peak, Temmu is better than 3/4 of those guys you mentioned period. Career wise it's a whole other matter. Just for fun think of 50 forwards who are better all time, after 15 or so the arguments are going to get pretty weak.
You'd easily rank Selanne ahead of Bucyk, Lach, Keon, Hawerchuck (very underrated), Sittler, and so on? I think all those players i listed have some pretty outstanding achievments in their careers and could certainly have an agument made for them. I agree the Robitalle comp. is baloney, and it's not unreasonable to argue he's top 25-50 but i don't think it's easy either. Top 10 is ludicrous, top 20 probably is too. I've never tried to rank guys but if i guessed how it would play out Selanne for me is probably in the 40's-50's.

After a point it get's really hard to say where a guy should rank, you could easily argue Crosby has already surpassed him in overall greatness. What i do know is that Selanne is a very very tough player to argue as top 10 all time. As for the 15 players i think one guy made a pretty obvious list in this thread. Tony d also made a good one and he didn't include guys like Esposito, Trottier, Malone, Sakic, Yzerman, Blake, Morenz, Messier, Lindsay, Moore, Gainey, Dionne, Conacher, Mahovlich, Lalonde, Bossy, and some of the players i already listed i do think are pretty clearly better. There's been list's already posted, i just think there's some very good players that are being forgotten. Selanne didn't stand out as some kind of generational talent in his career, but he was very good for the vast majority of his career. He's not an easy argument to make as top 20 unless you ignore multiple generations of players.

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02-10-2013, 06:32 PM
  #75
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And he'll have missed two whole seasons' worth of games due to lockouts.

1/2 season in '95
No season in '05
1/2 season this year.

In my opinion, people underestimate just how great he's been. Easily 1st ballot HoF.
No one saying he isnt great and he is a 1st ballot HOFer. He isnt even a top 20 let alone top 10 forward of all time.

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