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Old
02-10-2013, 02:25 PM
  #51
BraveCanadian
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Originally Posted by MrLegend28 View Post
for people bagging on JFJ, you are aware its old new he wanted a rebuild and the higher ups said no way to that? He got handcuffed into a ****** situation
Right.

The bad signings and trades were the result of being told "win now".

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Old
02-10-2013, 02:25 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by therealkoho View Post
Lets put that non-sense to bed right now

RASK was unsigned and showed no inclination of signing with the Buds, time was running out for them to retain his rights w/o a sig
I actually didn't know that.

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Old
02-10-2013, 02:26 PM
  #53
therealkoho
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
First you said he had no interest in signing with us and now you've changed it to he wanted a top 10 pick rookie deal .

Most 1st round picks get the max fixed dollar amount allowed under the rookie salary scale and the only thing that changes is the dollar amount of the bonuses which most rookies never earn and don't count against the cap unless there are earned . So why the **** would bonuses that would probably never be earned be a problem signing him .

The only myth is you spinning lies to try to defend JFJ .
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
I think my abilty to decipher well written english is fine , the problem seems to be with your memory .
so you do understand

if you offered me 100,000 kronars to work for you but I wanted 150,000 kronars I would not be inclined to work for you nor interested in working(or signing a contract) for/with you unless you ceded to my wishes and paid me 150,000

if you agreed to pay me 150,000 kronars then I would be interested, inclined because then you would be paying me what I believed I was worth and not what you thought I was worth

difficult concepts I know, but work with me here, everyone else gets it

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02-10-2013, 02:33 PM
  #54
Cool Beans Man
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Originally Posted by number72 View Post
JFJ was better draft selector compared to Burke. And just as ineffective at leading the team to the playoffs as Burke.
Aren't we discussing how we're really just starting to see the fruits of the 2006/2007 drafts?

Shouldn't we give Burke's draft picks a little time to develop too?

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02-10-2013, 02:35 PM
  #55
therealkoho
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Originally Posted by Cool Beans Man View Post
Aren't we discussing how we're really just starting to see the fruits of the 2006/2007 drafts?

Shouldn't we give Burke's draft picks a little time to develop too?
stop it! stop it right now....common sense has no place here

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02-10-2013, 02:40 PM
  #56
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People keep saying he didn't have a choice in terms of rebuilding the team the way he wanted, but I view that as another reason why JFJ was an awful general manager. I think it's safe to say JFJ will never work as a general manager again and there's a reason for that.

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02-10-2013, 02:43 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by therealkoho View Post
so you do understand

if you offered me 100,000 kronars to work for you but I wanted 150,000 kronars I would not be inclined to work for you nor interested in working(or signing a contract) for/with you unless you ceded to my wishes and paid me 150,000

if you agreed to pay me 150,000 kronars then I would be interested, inclined because then you would be paying me what I believed I was worth and not what you thought I was worth

difficult concepts I know, but work with me here, everyone else gets it
I really don't know what you're on about.

The onus is on you to provide proof to back up your initial claim. I have a sneaking suspicion no proof exists because it sounds like pretty hefty BS.

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Old
02-10-2013, 02:44 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Jerkini View Post
People keep saying he didn't have a choice in terms of rebuilding the team the way he wanted, but I view that as another reason why JFJ was an awful general manager. I think it's safe to say JFJ will never work as a general manager again and there's a reason for that.
How? Ownership not allowing him to follow through with a plan makes him a poor GM? I could see him getting another GM job in a smaller market for sure. He's director of scouting or something in San Jose. If they don't win a playoff round this year, maybe he replaces Doug Wilson? Who knows.

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Old
02-10-2013, 02:45 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by therealkoho View Post
so you do understand

if you offered me 100,000 kronars to work for you but I wanted 150,000 kronars I would not be inclined to work for you nor interested in working(or signing a contract) for/with you unless you ceded to my wishes and paid me 150,000

if you agreed to pay me 150,000 kronars then I would be interested, inclined because then you would be paying me what I believed I was worth and not what you thought I was worth

difficult concepts I know, but work with me here, everyone else gets it
WTF are you talking about ? Rookies have to sign a 2 way contract and the max dollar amounts are fixed . The Leafs nor any other team could have paid him more than what was allowed under the CBA . The only thing that could change is the bonuses which many would not have been reached anyway so the contract had nothing to do with why he was traded .

Bos signed him to a contract worth 850,00 in the NHL and 62,500 to play in the minors with potential bonuses of 2.350 mil so i have no idea why you think the Leafs would balk at offering the same type of deal ?

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Old
02-10-2013, 02:48 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Winreims View Post
How? Ownership not allowing him to follow through with a plan makes him a poor GM? I could see him getting another GM job in a smaller market for sure. He's director of scouting or something in San Jose. If they don't win a playoff round this year, maybe he replaces Doug Wilson? Who knows.
Ownership hired him to manage what was a 100 pt team , they didn't hire him to drive that team into the gutter and then to rebuild it .

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02-10-2013, 02:52 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Ownership hired him to manage what was a 100 pt team , they didn't hire him to drive that team into the gutter and then to rebuild it .
Drive it into the ground? No way. That 2003-04 team was aging at a rapid pace (much thanks to the 04-05 lockout as well) by time 05-06 rolled around. People like Nieuwendyk and Roberts got older and weren't going to be as effective. 2005-06 was a chance to give some of our younger players a chance and we only missed the playoffs by a single point or two.

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Old
02-10-2013, 03:04 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Winreims View Post
Drive it into the ground? No way. That 2003-04 team was aging at a rapid pace (much thanks to the 04-05 lockout as well) by time 05-06 rolled around. People like Nieuwendyk and Roberts got older and weren't going to be as effective. 2005-06 was a chance to give some of our younger players a chance and we only missed the playoffs by a single point or two.
I understand it was an aging team but there were many different paths he could have taken that would have kept that team competitive . There were many quality players that moved back then through trade or as UFA's . You can always work kids into a lineup , you don't have to drop out of the playoffs to give kids a chance to play

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02-10-2013, 03:12 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
I understand it was an aging team but there were many different paths he could have taken that would have kept that team competitive . There were many quality players that moved back then through trade or as UFA's . You can always work kids into a lineup , you don't have to drop out of the playoffs to give kids a chance to play
JFJ traded for a good forward in Jeff O'Neill and signed quality UFA's like Lindros and Allison, but unfortunately for us the injury bug kicked in. Belfour had a terrible year as well which didn't help at all. Had a few things gone in our favour, we would have been in the playoffs. That was a playoff caliber team.

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Old
02-10-2013, 03:18 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Winreims View Post
JFJ traded for a good forward in Jeff O'Neill and signed quality UFA's like Lindros and Allison, but unfortunately for us the injury bug kicked in. Belfour had a terrible year as well which didn't help at all. Had a few things gone in our favour, we would have been in the playoffs. That was a playoff caliber team.
JFJ signed and aquired a few big name players who were on there last legs . Guys like Chara/Savard/Pronger were all UFA's among others that could have been signed . JFJ was in over his head imo and had no business ever being hired .

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Old
02-10-2013, 03:22 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
JFJ signed and aquired a few big name players who were on there last legs . Guys like Chara/Savard/Pronger were all UFA's among others that could have been signed . JFJ was in over his head imo and had no business ever being hired .
In the offseason before 2005-06 Chara was a member of the Sens, Savard was a member of the Thrashers and Pronger was TRADED to the Oilers.

JFJ did good in the players he acquired. Allison played 66 games and put up 60 points, and Lindros put up with 22 points in 33 games. Both battled injuries which is a good reason why the Leafs missed the playoffs by a point.

JFJ would have done a better job had he not been pressured by ownership.

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Old
02-10-2013, 03:46 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by therealkoho View Post
so you do understand

if you offered me 100,000 kronars to work for you but I wanted 150,000 kronars I would not be inclined to work for you nor interested in working(or signing a contract) for/with you unless you ceded to my wishes and paid me 150,000

if you agreed to pay me 150,000 kronars then I would be interested, inclined because then you would be paying me what I believed I was worth and not what you thought I was worth

difficult concepts I know, but work with me here, everyone else gets it
I think what he is saying is that Tukka Rask had no interest signing with the Leafs at the time.

Then when questioned qualified that by saying Tukka Rask had no interest signing with the Leafs at the time unless they overpaid for him.

It's the same thing except the second time he/she went into more detail...

Splitting statements up into finite conclusions based on passing thoughts will really degrade anyone's point into a pointless conversation.

Who cares if within 3 mins of talking he/she goes on to further explain where they are coming from?

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02-10-2013, 03:50 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
I think what he is saying is that Tukka Rask had no interest signing with the Leafs at the time.

Then when questioned qualified that by saying Tukka Rask had no interest signing with the Leafs at the time unless they overpaid for him.

It's the same thing except the second time he/she went into more detail...

Splitting statements up into finite conclusions based on passing thoughts will really degrade anyone's point into a pointless conversation.

Who cares if within 3 mins of talking he/she goes on to further explain where they are coming from?
The not signing issue was a rumour that came out after the trade. It was never really confirmed and doesn't sound all that believable. At first it was that he needed to enrol in the miliatary and that would somehow prevent him from signing.

At the time, the Leafs needed a starter and had both Pogge and Rask in the pipeline. Boston was high on Hannu Toivonen (not Tim Thomas) and felt he was their goaltender of the future. The B's had an offer of a first on the table for Raycroft and had no interest in Pogge. They wanted Rask for the Finnish connection with Toivonen. JFJ made the move to acquire a young start as part of his rebuild on the fly model, but it didn't work out.

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Old
02-10-2013, 03:58 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
The not signing issue was a rumour that came out after the trade. It was never really confirmed and doesn't sound all that believable. At first it was that he needed to enrol in the miliatary and that would somehow prevent him from signing.

At the time, the Leafs needed a starter and had both Pogge and Rask in the pipeline. Boston was high on Hannu Toivonen (not Tim Thomas) and felt he was their goaltender of the future. The B's had an offer of a first on the table for Raycroft and had no interest in Pogge. They wanted Rask for the Finnish connection with Toivonen. JFJ made the move to acquire a young start as part of his rebuild on the fly model, but it didn't work out.
Fair enough... it's on the other poster to prove his claim I just don't see the point in trying to twist his words.

It's still a bad trade either way, but I still think Rask is an amazing goalie or anything, although he has potential.

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02-10-2013, 04:10 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
Fair enough... it's on the other poster to prove his claim I just don't see the point in trying to twist his words.

It's still a bad trade either way, but I still think Rask is an amazing goalie or anything, although he has potential.
How did i twist his words ? He first said he had no interest in signing with us and then he went on and said he didn't want to sign with us unless we gave him top 10 pick money .

There's are huge difference in those statements and considering there are fixed amounts to what a rookie can sign for i don't see where there would have been an issue signing him . Unless people actually believe JFJ had a problem with giving him the rookie max and tried to save a 100 or 200 hundred grand which i have a real problem believing .

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02-10-2013, 04:26 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Jerkini View Post
People keep saying he didn't have a choice in terms of rebuilding the team the way he wanted, but I view that as another reason why JFJ was an awful general manager. I think it's safe to say JFJ will never work as a general manager again and there's a reason for that.
Yeah, don't let the facts get in the way of a misguided opinion!

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02-10-2013, 06:18 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Quarter View Post
Hindsight's 20/20.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he pressured to trade one of them away (specifically Rask)?
I suspect so. And at the time, Pogge was a legitimate blue chip prospect with all the awards and praise to go along with it.

I thought somehow trading Rask would be left out of the discussion in the same way when a toilet has overflowed onto a bathroom floor people tend not to bring in buckets of water to add more to the obvious problem.

Still, I literally shouted at the broadcast of his trade louder than I had when we selected him. Best and worst moment of Draft watching life. I was praying Rask would be a Leaf after that WJC...Blah,blah,blah...

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02-10-2013, 06:22 PM
  #72
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With our luck, JFJ would've traded Pogge to the Bruins and he would've won them the cup. That's the luck of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

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02-10-2013, 06:26 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Yeah, don't let the facts get in the way of a misguided opinion!
Managers lose their jobs all the time without gutting every aspect of a team's future desperate for a playoff spot. You find those guys going on to find other general managerial jobs. Dave Nonis is a perfect example of that. JFJ is, well, a scout.

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02-10-2013, 08:26 PM
  #74
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With our luck, JFJ would've traded Pogge to the Bruins and he would've won them the cup. That's the luck of the Toronto Maple Leafs.
Hah. I've never looked it at it that way...Might have been, you're right.

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02-11-2013, 07:38 AM
  #75
therealkoho
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
WTF are you talking about ? Rookies have to sign a 2 way contract and the max dollar amounts are fixed . The Leafs nor any other team could have paid him more than what was allowed under the CBA . The only thing that could change is the bonuses which many would not have been reached anyway so the contract had nothing to do with why he was traded .

Bos signed him to a contract worth 850,00 in the NHL and 62,500 to play in the minors with potential bonuses of 2.350 mil so i have no idea why you think the Leafs would balk at offering the same type of deal ?
allright I'll just chalk this one up to you being obtuse

you know exactly what I'm talking and if you don't, I really don't have time to bring you up to speed

a top 10 gets a lot more in remuneration then does any body picked below them

RASK WANTED TOP 10 money, RASK WAS NOT A TOP 10 PICK

even after he was traded he played hardball with the B's and did not sign a contract until May 5 2007 a contract that was worth up to $2,350,000, which in 2007 was TOP 10 money, the B's had until June to sign him and so folded rather then let him go back into the draft. By comparison the overall #1 pick Paddy Kane received a contract worth up to $2.85m by comparison the 22nd pick(which was Rask's slotting) Max Pacioretty wasn't signed until the following year and received an NHL contract worth up to 910k.

needless to say the Leafs were not going to pay this guy any more then they gave to Justin Pogge which was a contract worth up to 683k


clear

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