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Old
02-10-2013, 02:15 PM
  #1
Jet
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Jets Defense

Funny how things work. When Byfuglien went down, having already started the season without Bogosian we pained about how woefully thin we were depth-wise defensively. These 2 things have almost been a blessing in disguise as we saw the emergence of Postma and Redmond with the big club.

Postma has shown some very slick ability with the puck, and some real improvement already wrt using his stick and being in good position in the defensive zone. As a matter of fact I have been pretty satisfied with his defensive play, considering he is an offensive minded rookie. He has a knack for using his wheels to get the puck out of trouble and I expect his play on the defensive side of the puck to continue to improve.

Redmond has been a real pleasant surprise for me. This guy has no fear. I would be absolutely crapping my pants if I was called up to the NHL. Not this kid. All he does is play big minutes, make good decisions and passes, and even has the confidence to jump up in the play on the PENALTY KILL to score a goal. I see him as a very well rounded guy who could probably stand to gain a few pounds and get a bit nastier to really become a great bottom 4 defenseman.

So this is all fine and well, but what do we do as an organization, both short term and over the next 1-2 seasons after this? (before the coming of Trouba)

I do not believe that Jacob Trouba will be a Jet next year. There is no reason to rush him, and by all accounts, he would like to stay in school a bit longer so I say leave him for at least next year as well. So, what do we do?

Enstrom - Byfuglien
Hainsey - Bogosian
Stuart - Postma
Clitsome - Redmond


That, for my money is a top tier defense. However, what do we do for the rest of this year and beyond?

- This year, I know my first instinct, and what you guys might be screaming for as well is to waive Clitsome and keep Redmond and Postma. This worries me. What happens if we do this, lose Clitsome to waivers and get banged up on D again. Remember, neither of our top 3 have been exactly rugged the past 2 years. We may be able to find help through a waiver claim or free agency, but having a guy who knows the system, is known by the team and coaches is really a plus. Clitsome also has been playing progressively better of late and actually has kind of a bomb from the point (when he gets it on).

As much as it pains me, I would send Redmond down. He is exempt from waivers, so he's the only real option.

- Next year, it would be tempting to let Hainsey walk, and have Redmond and Postma up. However, Clitsome's contract is expiring, so I think we let him go to free agency. To me, this is a very interesting scenario for the Jets. Hainsey has a bad rep with some around here, but people who like statistics and facts to back up opinon know he has filled in admirably in the absence of Bogo and Buff, and is a very nice #4. However, with teams trying to get cap compliant over the off season, there might be some nice D men come available. If we are making the playoffs, I think we need to keep Ron around. You don't sacrifice the revenue and experience of a playoff run for a draft pick, that isn't common sense. I know it's "Hockey's Future" and all, and draft picks are gold dubloons, but believe it or not, there are things that are more important.

What do you guys think? How does our D stack up now against the rest of the league? What should we do short/ mid term with our corps?

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02-10-2013, 02:18 PM
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I do not think all is fine and well. There have been some critical mistakes that have been costly. We need our NHL ready defenseman back if we expect to win games.

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02-10-2013, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandChelems View Post
I do not think all is fine and well. There have been some critical mistakes that have been costly. We need our NHL ready defenseman back if we expect to win games.
I never said all is fine and well. Where did I say that? I am looking for some opinion on our D corps as a whole, as it stands.

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02-10-2013, 02:19 PM
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Looking back at all the D the Jets/Thrashers drafted over the last 5-6 years all but a couple are in the organization, a Russian playing in Russia, a guy that seems to have quit pro hockey and who isgoing back to school and Kulda, what was the reason him and the Jets parted ways? Thought he was okay last year and pretty physical.


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02-10-2013, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet View Post
Funny how things work. When Byfuglien went down, having already started the season without Bogosian we pained about how woefully thin we were depth-wise defensively. These 2 things have almost been a blessing in disguise as we saw the emergence of Postma and Redmond with the big club.

Postma has shown some very slick ability with the puck, and some real improvement already wrt using his stick and being in good position in the defensive zone. As a matter of fact I have been pretty satisfied with his defensive play, considering he is an offensive minded rookie. He has a knack for using his wheels to get the puck out of trouble and I expect his play on the defensive side of the puck to continue to improve.

Redmond has been a real pleasant surprise for me. This guy has no fear. I would be absolutely crapping my pants if I was called up to the NHL. Not this kid. All he does is play big minutes, make good decisions and passes, and even has the confidence to jump up in the play on the PENALTY KILL to score a goal. I see him as a very well rounded guy who could probably stand to gain a few pounds and get a bit nastier to really become a great bottom 4 defenseman.

So this is all fine and well, but what do we do as an organization, both short term and over the next 1-2 seasons after this? (before the coming of Trouba)

I do not believe that Jacob Trouba will be a Jet next year. There is no reason to rush him, and by all accounts, he would like to stay in school a bit longer so I say leave him for at least next year as well. So, what do we do?

Enstrom - Byfuglien
Hainsey - Bogosian
Stuart - Postma
Clitsome - Redmond


That, for my money is a top tier defense. However, what do we do for the rest of this year and beyond?

- This year, I know my first instinct, and what you guys might be screaming for as well is to waive Clitsome and keep Redmond and Postma. This worries me. What happens if we do this, lose Clitsome to waivers and get banged up on D again. Remember, neither of our top 3 have been exactly rugged the past 2 years. We may be able to find help through a waiver claim or free agency, but having a guy who knows the system, is known by the team and coaches is really a plus. Clitsome also has been playing progressively better of late and actually has kind of a bomb from the point (when he gets it on).

As much as it pains me, I would send Redmond down. He is exempt from waivers, so he's the only real option.

- Next year, it would be tempting to let Hainsey walk, and have Redmond and Postma up. However, Clitsome's contract is expiring, so I think we let him go to free agency. To me, this is a very interesting scenario for the Jets. Hainsey has a bad rep with some around here, but people who like statistics and facts to back up opinon know he has filled in admirably in the absence of Bogo and Buff, and is a very nice #4. However, with teams trying to get cap compliant over the off season, there might be some nice D men come available. If we are making the playoffs, I think we need to keep Ron around. You don't sacrifice the revenue and experience of a playoff run for a draft pick, that isn't common sense. I know it's "Hockey's Future" and all, and draft picks are gold dubloons, but believe it or not, there are things that are more important.

What do you guys think? How does our D stack up now against the rest of the league? What should we do short/ mid term with our corps?
see bold

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02-10-2013, 02:24 PM
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Great thread, Jet, and well explained. I've given some of my thoughts in a couple threads today but I know one thing that makes me pretty happy, this is a GREAT "problem" to have.

It'll be interesting to see how this works itself out, who stays healthy, who management and the coaches keep up.

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02-10-2013, 02:25 PM
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This Season
I think Noel likes running 8 D, so when Buff AND Bogo returns, Clitsome will sit in the pressbox and Redmond will either a) earn a spot and switch back and forth with Postma for #6/7 or b) will go to St.J for one more season and Meech will play #8. When Mittens return we'll have to chose either dropping one F or one D, but until then there is no need.

Next Season
Semi-depends on this season. I can legitimately see Hainsey being extended for ~2.5-3mill for 1-2 seasons, or them looking through UFA for someone. No one of Clitsome, Stuart, Redmond, or Postma will be taking his job so it's either extend or replace via trade/UFA. Then we'll have exactly the depth as you've shown above, with the offchance of someone else standing in for Hainsey. I don't see us waiving Clitsome as he's a find #7 (improvement on Jones) unless the team beckons Kulda back for that spot.

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02-10-2013, 02:30 PM
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I fail to see any Benefit to Clitsome. I'm sorry but he hasn't impressed at all even though he's been given a proper shot here. cut him, waive him, buy him out, trade him whatever. Postma? deserves to sit and be a healthy scratch when the corps is full and we need injury reserve. Redmond deserves a spot and should stay up. Contract considerations are well and good when you have a abundance of talent and don't need to fill holes but to be honest We need better D and Redmond looks to be our best option.

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02-10-2013, 02:31 PM
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I'd be fine with Hainsey back, he provides good stability, by all indications leadership, a veteran back there, and most of all, a guy who can play up the depth chart and not really hurt the team, we know we can rely on Hains.

One thing I will say though, is I would really like a guy like Robyn Regehr - a UFA this July - to play with Bogosian. There is a top 4 physical, LH shot, punishing defenceman who could possibly mesh with Bogosian and allow him to explore more of his offensive game.

Enstrom - Byfuglien
Regehr - Bogosian

As the top 4. But then do we bring Hainsey back? I'd view Regehr as an upgrade, and I'd love his physical play, but what if we don't re-sign Hains and explore UFA only to miss out? Then we're in a hole. But, if we do re-sign Hainsey, we've got Stuart, then there is Postma and Redmond, so where do we upgrade the top 4 and who sits and/or gets pushed out?

Tough decisions to be made in Jets land headed forward, and I think we're really going to see how Chevy operates here.

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02-10-2013, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Skidooboy View Post
I fail to see any Benefit to Clitsome. I'm sorry but he hasn't impressed at all even though he's been given a proper shot here. cut him, waive him, buy him out, trade him whatever. Postma? deserves to sit and be a healthy scratch when the corps is full and we need injury reserve. Redmond deserves a spot and should stay up. Contract considerations are well and good when you have a abundance of talent and don't need to fill holes but to be honest We need better D and Redmond looks to be our best option.
Problem with that is Redmond and Postma have ZERO experience on playing leftside aside from PP.
This is why Noel likes to keep 2 extra D, just like last season: one LHD and one RHD.
Besides, as far as #7/8s go he's not bad at all... Remember Ran_y Jones???


Quote:
Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
I'd be fine with Hainsey back, he provides good stability, by all indications leadership, a veteran back there, and most of all, a guy who can play up the depth chart and not really hurt the team, we know we can rely on Hains.

One thing I will say though, is I would really like a guy like Robyn Regehr - a UFA this July - to play with Bogosian. There is a top 4 physical, LH shot, punishing defenceman who could possibly mesh with Bogosian and allow him to explore more of his offensive game.

Enstrom - Byfuglien
Regehr - Bogosian

As the top 4. But then do we bring Hainsey back? I'd view Regehr as an upgrade, and I'd love his physical play, but what if we don't re-sign Hains and explore UFA only to miss out? Then we're in a hole. But, if we do re-sign Hainsey, we've got Stuart, then there is Postma and Redmond, so where do we upgrade the top 4 and who sits and/or gets pushed out?

Tough decisions to be made in Jets land headed forward, and I think we're really going to see how Chevy operates here.
CGY Regehr I'll take over Hainsey... BUF Regehr... not so sure about that. It's a tough call.

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02-10-2013, 02:37 PM
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I think both are keepers. I remember several years ago thinking Redmond and Will O'Neill would be draft steals (not sure how O'Neill has done). Redmond has looked good on O and D and he seems poised. May be a future top 4.. Postma still needs to get stronger and tighten up on D, but he has been better than I thought he would. These are guys that will get better as they play more.

BTW, one thing I noticed about Postma that the coaches have to love: he gets a high percentage of shots on net.

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02-10-2013, 02:59 PM
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This season:

Run with

Enstrom - Buff
Hainsey - Bogo
Stuart - Redmond

7th --> Postma (swap in and out with Redmond as appropriate)
8th --> Clitsome (keep as the 8th, trade for anything, or waive him)
9th --> Meech (call him up for depth if injuries threaten and Clitsome is gone)

I like Clitsome just fine but I don't think he's part of the long-term plan so it wouldn't kill me to lose him. I'm not in favour of keeping him over Redmond although I can see the logic in that, even if I don't agree.


At the deadline:

If we are not realistically in the hunt for a playoff spot at the deadline and Hainsey, for whatever reason, will not be back next year then we have to deal him. He potentially holds the most value of any of our expiring contracts.

If he wants to be here next year and the numbers are reasonable, re-sign him.


Next season and beyond:

Impossible to predict.

I've been a big advocate of loading up on as many good picks as possible this year because of the freedom/ammo it will provide Chevy to wheel and deal in the offseason. We talk about not being able to fill Hainsey's shoes via free agency, but it will be a crazy off-season with the cap going down and there could be several top 4 D on the market via trade. Any teams with cap issues will be looking to unload salary for either picks or prospects that won't be a hit on their cap.

At the extreme, say we are out of it at the deadline and we swing the following deals:

Hainsey and 3rd for a late 1st
Antro for a 2nd
Poni for a 2nd

We would go into the draft with two 1sts, five 2nds and a 3rd. I'm not stupid enough to think that draft picks rule all, but they will come in really handy for this offseason in particular. I really do see this summer as a franchise defining few months for Chevy; a chance to put his stamp on things once and for all. I'm not going to try to predict all the options out there, but suffice to say there will be options.

At the end of the day, our blue line is fast becoming the strength of the organization and we should all be happy about that.

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02-10-2013, 03:23 PM
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Agree with Stej. 100 percent.

Hainsey will end up walking, unless he chooses to stay for a much smaller deal. I've been more impressed with Redmond than Postma, and I wouldn't be surprised seeing Postma get traded in a package deal. He's a right handed offensive d man, something we have more than enough of.

I'm very happy with Buff, Toby, Bogo, Stuart, Redmond, and Clitsome.

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02-10-2013, 03:39 PM
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Enstrom, Buff, Bogo, Redmond and Postma are relevant to the Jets blue-line development. I think Redmond may make Postma redudant. Postma has more offence but not by a lot and Redmond is better defensively. Redmond stays and Postma gets packaged with _____ for _____? I dunno if that happens. But having Redmond and Postma is a happy dilemna to have.

The resident statiticians on here have shown Hainsey to be more than effective as a #4 and good back fill for when our big beasts go down. At the same time, he is, at his current rate, overpaid for what he does for the Jets. Also he is the easiest of all our RHD to replace. I think he gets dealt for following reasons:

1. Likely highest trade value at deadline

2. Not sure if Chevy talks extensions during the season so, if not, then no way of actually knowing what Hainsey's intentions are. Feel its better to secure an additional pick that play him out and wonder maybe he signs/maybe he doesn't.

3. First off-season under new CBA. Last time(s) there was lockout there was a lot of activity in first off season under new CBA as teams re-calibrated their rosters and payrolls. Capgeek.com shows a modest amount of d-men headed to FA this summer but may increase with buyouts/waivers/trades etc. I think Jets can replace any personnel loss on the blue-line with a FA signing.

If we do not move him at deadline I would wait until at least Jul1 or 2 to extend to survey the FA landscape first.

Clitsome...

He's gone. Don't think he's part of future plans and is low end 6th d-man currently.

Just my $0.02

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02-10-2013, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin's Ghost View Post
Enstrom, Buff, Bogo, Redmond and Postma are relevant to the Jets blue-line development. I think Redmond may make Postma redudant. Postma has more offence but not by a lot and Redmond is better defensively. Redmond stays and Postma gets packaged with _____ for _____? I dunno if that happens. But having Redmond and Postma is a happy dilemna to have.

The resident statiticians on here have shown Hainsey to be more than effective as a #4 and good back fill for when our big beasts go down. At the same time, he is, at his current rate, overpaid for what he does for the Jets. Also he is the easiest of all our RHD to replace. I think he gets dealt for following reasons:

1. Likely highest trade value at deadline

2. Not sure if Chevy talks extensions during the season so, if not, then no way of actually knowing what Hainsey's intentions are. Feel its better to secure an additional pick that play him out and wonder maybe he signs/maybe he doesn't.

3. First off-season under new CBA. Last time(s) there was lockout there was a lot of activity in first off season under new CBA as teams re-calibrated their rosters and payrolls. Capgeek.com shows a modest amount of d-men headed to FA this summer but may increase with buyouts/waivers/trades etc. I think Jets can replace any personnel loss on the blue-line with a FA signing.

If we do not move him at deadline I would wait until at least Jul1 or 2 to extend to survey the FA landscape first.

Clitsome...

He's gone. Don't think he's part of future plans and is low end 6th d-man currently.

Just my $0.02
I agree but two small corrections, which really don't change any of the meat or potatoes of your comments...

Hainsey is a LHD, but of our D he has the most experience in playing his offside, which is why currently he's been playing on the right side with us down to only 2 RHD (add versatility to his resume).
Hainsey isn't technically over paid this season as he's receiving 3mil which is fairly comparable to most 2nd pairs signed in the last two off-seasons, and probably pretty similar to what an extension or replacement would cost.

But, as I said, doesn't change any of the meaning to any of your statements

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02-10-2013, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
I agree but two small corrections, which really don't change any of the meat or potatoes of your comments...

Hainsey is a LHD, but of our D he has the most experience in playing his offside, which is why currently he's been playing on the right side with us down to only 2 RHD (add versatility to his resume).
Hainsey isn't technically over paid this season as he's receiving 3mil which is fairly comparable to most 2nd pairs signed in the last two off-seasons, and probably pretty similar to what an extension or replacement would cost.

But, as I said, doesn't change any of the meaning to any of your statements
Actually it's like Mio...it changes everything. If he can play left side then he is alot more useful than I gave him credit for. Not the shutdown type of LHD that Chevy supposedly covets but not a bad option nonetheless. Hopefully not at any term/rate above 1yr/2- 2.25 million.

Geez, everytime I open my yap about Hainsey you have me re-considering!

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02-10-2013, 04:11 PM
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Redmond is a keeper, IMO. He is 24 years old and shown no real weakness in his game thus far. He has potential to be, at minimum, a great 5/6.
I wonder whether we could trade Postma, straight-up, for a LHD with equal potential, to a team that has a need for a RH/PP D. That would free us to trade Stuart, who is at maximum a 5/6, is not getting any younger and who probably will have significant trade value at the deadline because of his grit and leadership. We may need the draft pick more than the grit by then.
That would still leave our top four Ds intact.

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02-10-2013, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet View Post
... Jets D good stuff ...

What do you guys think? How does our D stack up now against the rest of the league? What should we do short/ mid term with our corps?
I personally agree with this, and resonate with what you said.

If that D corps can become stable (wrt health-wsie), then by the time Trouba is ready to join (I expect this to be the 2014-2015 season) it could really be something special.

Give that type of D with another season under its belt, and with our coaching staff (who I think are doing a fine job but thats my own opinion) and it should be a very solid D overall.


Hey Jet, how about an offence thread too?

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02-10-2013, 04:17 PM
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Redmond is a keeper, IMO. He is 24 years old and shown no real weakness in his game thus far. He has potential to be, at minimum, a great 5/6.
I wonder whether we could trade Postma, straight-up, for a LHD with equal potential, to a team that has a need for a RH/PP D. That would free us to trade Stuart, who is at maximum a 5/6, is not getting any younger and who probably will have significant trade value at the deadline because of his grit and leadership. We may need the draft pick more than the grit by then.
That would still leave our top four Ds intact.
What? No! We need to keep Stuart he's a grinder's grinder. He does well as d-man #5/6 imo. Lots of blocked shots,sta-at-home toughness, just don't have him as the guy to clear the puck and its relatively smooth sailing.

Redmond, absolutely a keeper. Makes Postma expendable in a good way. really nice asset development here whether it was the IceCaps or serendipity.

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02-10-2013, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tintin's Ghost View Post
What? No! We need to keep Stuart he's a grinder's grinder. He does well as d-man #5/6 imo. Lots of blocked shots,sta-at-home toughness, just don't have him as the guy to clear the puck and its relatively smooth sailing.

Redmond, absolutely a keeper. Makes Postma expendable in a good way. really nice asset development here whether it was the IceCaps or serendipity.
Haha, I knew this was going to be tough on you Stuart fans, but someone has to break the bad news. Stuart is a terrific guy, a leader and tough as nails, but we probably are too young a team to win a Stanley cup with him. Some other team might, though. So, let's make him happy by trading to a team that is closer, IF AND ONLY IF, we can garner some real nice future assets for ourselves in so doing.

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02-10-2013, 04:36 PM
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Haha, I knew this was going to be tough on you Stuart fans, but someone has to break the bad news. Stuart is a terrific guy, a leader and tough as nails, but we probably are too young a team to win a Stanley cup with him. Some other team might, though. So, let's make him happy by trading to a team that is closer, IF AND ONLY IF, we can garner some real nice future assets for ourselves in so doing.
Does a team that is close to a cup want or need Stu? Boston didn't.

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02-10-2013, 04:37 PM
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Haha, I knew this was going to be tough on you Stuart fans, but someone has to break the bad news. Stuart is a terrific guy, a leader and tough as nails, but we probably are too young a team to win a Stanley cup with him. Some other team might, though. So, let's make him happy by trading to a team that is closer, IF AND ONLY IF, we can garner some real nice future assets for ourselves in so doing.
I could see this potentially happening.
After all, hockey is business and no one is untouchable. Personally I always thought this would be more likely to happen if/when one of Kulda, Melchiori or Yuen were available to play 3LD... but you never know.

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02-10-2013, 04:47 PM
  #23
almostawake
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Until they have another legitimate #4 to take over his minutes I see no way the Jets can let Hainsey go. The UFA market for top 4 defencemen will likely be very thin again, no one internally seems likely to handle such minutes and addressing such a need through trade would be expensive.

Wouldn't think twice about handing him a 2 year 8M contract because I think it will be just that hard to find a top 4 guy.

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02-10-2013, 04:55 PM
  #24
almostawake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
Does a team that is close to a cup want or need Stu? Boston didn't.
Some do, some don't. That particular trade was largely made to fit Kaberle under the cap.

Stuart's value to a cup contender really comes down to how that team is structured on the back end, and capwise.

He's probably among the 5 best 5/6 defencemen (as a role, not as just a guy that happens to be playing on the bottom pairing) and is making premium money for someone in that role.

If a team needs a guy that plays that role and can fit the cap then he's really the best guy for the job. Otherwise, not so much.

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02-10-2013, 05:48 PM
  #25
KingBogo
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For the rest of the season I don't see a dilemma with our defense. When everyone is healthy:

Enstrom - Buff
Hainsey - Bogo
Stuart - Redmond

7th - Postma
8th - Clitsome

We are almost at the quarter pole and we have yet to have a full compliment and who actually knows about the status of Buff. If we are fully healthy and Chevy only wants 7 D up, take your chances and send Clitsome down. Redmond deserves to stay. If we are sellers we make decisions at the trade deadline.

Long term I see Redmond as a better fit on the bottom pairing than Postma.

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