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Old
02-09-2013, 03:51 PM
  #351
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Originally Posted by 080 View Post
Just to give you some perspective on what the Leafs would want back: they'd probably be wanting Couture. Maybe straight-up or perhaps with a little tweak to either side.

Also, Kessel is better defensively than he's given credit for. Although he's not great.
That will never ever happen.

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02-09-2013, 03:55 PM
  #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 080 View Post
Just to give you some perspective on what the Leafs would want back: they'd probably be wanting Couture. Maybe straight-up or perhaps with a little tweak to either side.

Also, Kessel is better defensively than he's given credit for. Although he's not great.
Not even close. Kessel may be better defensively that he's given credit for, but he's not even near the same level as Couture is defensively.
Not to mention he's a UFA after next season, whereas Couture will still be an RFA. It'd have to be a considerable + from Toronto for me to even look at the offer, let alone consider it.

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02-09-2013, 05:50 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by The Great 88 View Post
That's like if the Canucks traded Cory Schneider for George Parros
not quite, granted that the Avs may have to add more to sweeten the deal. Perhaps a 2nd rounder for example.

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02-09-2013, 06:26 PM
  #354
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How bout Ryan ORiley for Burns straight up. We have depth in puck moving D
and we get a younger player and maybe are a little better off cap wise.
Ew. Burns is going nowhere, and if he was being shopped, it wouldn't be for another center. It'll be for a top 20 winger.

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Originally Posted by 080 View Post
Just to give you some perspective on what the Leafs would want back: they'd probably be wanting Couture. Maybe straight-up or perhaps with a little tweak to either side.

Also, Kessel is better defensively than he's given credit for. Although he's not great.
You can keep him then.

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02-10-2013, 12:15 PM
  #355
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Any news or rumor of who DW might be going after?

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02-10-2013, 01:27 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by DuckEatinShark View Post
Ew. Burns is going nowhere, and if he was being shopped, it wouldn't be for another center. It'll be for a top 20 winger.
Ew? I think you're underrating Ryan O'Reilly.

"Turning to history to help plot his career path, the list of the most statistically comparable players at his age actually include Mark Messier and Joe Thornton. The closest match is probably Troy Murray, a strong defensive-minded, penalty-killing, playmaking, faceoff-winning forward for the Chicago Blackhawks throughout the 1980s, who won the 1996 Stanley Cup with the Avs in the twilight of his career. Murray, who was far more physical and had a much better shot, won the Selke Trophy as the league's top defensive player at age 23, something we wouldn't be surprised to see matched by O'Reilly."

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1423

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02-10-2013, 01:32 PM
  #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magic school bus View Post
Ew? I think you're underrating Ryan O'Reilly.

"Turning to history to help plot his career path, the list of the most statistically comparable players at his age actually include Mark Messier and Joe Thornton. The closest match is probably Troy Murray, a strong defensive-minded, penalty-killing, playmaking, faceoff-winning forward for the Chicago Blackhawks throughout the 1980s, who won the 1996 Stanley Cup with the Avs in the twilight of his career. Murray, who was far more physical and had a much better shot, won the Selke Trophy as the league's top defensive player at age 23, something we wouldn't be surprised to see matched by O'Reilly."

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1423
Possibly.

But giving up an established #1 D-man like Burns based on RoR's potential alone would be a really big gamble. RoR may have top-20 forward/winger potential but thats to be seen.

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02-10-2013, 01:43 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Squeeven View Post
Any news or rumor of who DW might be going after?
Nope just speculation and wish lists.

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02-10-2013, 01:53 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Fistfullofbeer View Post
Possibly.

But giving up an established #1 D-man like Burns based on RoR's potential alone would be a really big gamble. RoR may have top-20 forward/winger potential but thats to be seen.
Yeah no question bout that at all, Burns will only be traded if we get a top young forward like Kane/Toews.

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02-10-2013, 04:19 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by AbsolonMoreau View Post
Yeah no question bout that at all, Burns will only be traded if we get a top young forward like Kane/Toews.
burns is the pp quarterback once boyle is gone, not going anywhere.

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02-10-2013, 04:41 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by AbsolonMoreau View Post
Yeah no question bout that at all, Burns will only be traded if we get a top young forward like Kane/Toews.
Not for Kane no. Burns is pretty much untouchable in my mind.

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02-10-2013, 04:45 PM
  #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magic school bus View Post
Ew? I think you're underrating Ryan O'Reilly.

"Turning to history to help plot his career path, the list of the most statistically comparable players at his age actually include Mark Messier and Joe Thornton. The closest match is probably Troy Murray, a strong defensive-minded, penalty-killing, playmaking, faceoff-winning forward for the Chicago Blackhawks throughout the 1980s, who won the 1996 Stanley Cup with the Avs in the twilight of his career. Murray, who was far more physical and had a much better shot, won the Selke Trophy as the league's top defensive player at age 23, something we wouldn't be surprised to see matched by O'Reilly."

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1423
I generally like what hockeyprospectus has to say, but in this case, they are making a blind statistical comparison without using much context. There is simply no chance that Ryan O'Reilly turns into an offensive player of the caliber of Thornton or Messier. Don't get me wrong, O'Reilly is a very valuable two-way center, especially considering he is only 20. Already an elite defensive player, he probably has the potential to develop into someone capable of putting up 70 points a season on a consistent basis. He consistently outplays some of the toughest competition in the NHL. In terms of pure value, taking age and future production into account, he may be worth Brent Burns. But to the Sharks, Burns is far, far more valuable than O'Reilly ever would be. The Sharks have depth down the middle that no other team in the NHL can match. The difference is that because they lack top six wingers, and because Pavelski and Marleau fit so well with Thornton, they basically utilize 4 legitimate top-six centers in their top six, 3 as wingers. Ryan O'Reilly adds nothing to the Sharks. They need a winger, preferably one that can add a dimension of goalscoring and speed on the second line that Ryane Clowe can't. Burns is incredibly valuable to a puck possession team like the Sharks. Dan Boyle is amazing, and is probably the most important player on the team right now. But he isn't going to play at this level forever. Burns is only 27, signed long-term at a very reasonable price (especially compared to what lesser defensemen are getting nowadays, and he has a skillset that only 2-3 other players at his position in the NHL can lay claim to possessing. He's 6-5, is an elite skater and provides an offensive impact from the blueline that (when he is at the top of his game) is probably only exceeded by one other defenseman in the NHL (Erik Karlsson). He is absolutely vital to the Sharks' future, one that actually is quite a bit brighter than some people like to claim.


And it's the same situation for the Avalanche. They badly need O'Reilly back, because they lack any type of high-level offensive talent beyond Matt Duchene. Paul Stastny is not capable of playing top minutes.

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02-10-2013, 05:09 PM
  #363
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So apparently Gerbe might be on the block. Thoughts?

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02-10-2013, 05:12 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
So apparently Gerbe might be on the block. Thoughts?
Nah.

I'd rather target one of Grabner, Glencross, Read, Voracek, Brouwer, Fleischmann, Bergenheim.

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02-10-2013, 05:19 PM
  #365
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Trade Murray+ for Gerbe, trade Clowe+ for Grabner.

Marleau-Thornton-Grabner
Sheppard-Couture-Havlat
Gerbe-Gomez-Pavelski
Wingels-Handzus-Burish

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02-10-2013, 05:36 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
Trade Murray+ for Gerbe, trade Clowe+ for Grabner.

Marleau-Thornton-Grabner
Sheppard-Couture-Havlat
Gerbe-Gomez-Pavelski
Wingels-Handzus-Burish
I like this forward grouping. Too bad DW overvalues size and would never trade for a 5'5" winger (Gerbe), IMHO.

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02-10-2013, 05:38 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
So apparently Gerbe might be on the block. Thoughts?
Pass.

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02-10-2013, 05:39 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
I like this forward grouping. Too bad DW overvalues size and would never trade for a 5'5" winger, IMHO.
Exactly what I was thinking.

And from reading the Isles boards, does not seem like Grabner will be traded.

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02-10-2013, 05:43 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
I like this forward grouping. Too bad DW overvalues size and would never trade for a 5'5" winger (Gerbe), IMHO.
To be fair though, that line-up is extremely soft. Someone like the Canucks would annihilate them physically in the playoffs, like they did to our 3rd line 2 years ago.

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02-10-2013, 05:52 PM
  #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magic school bus View Post
Ew? I think you're underrating Ryan O'Reilly.

"Turning to history to help plot his career path, the list of the most statistically comparable players at his age actually include Mark Messier and Joe Thornton. The closest match is probably Troy Murray, a strong defensive-minded, penalty-killing, playmaking, faceoff-winning forward for the Chicago Blackhawks throughout the 1980s, who won the 1996 Stanley Cup with the Avs in the twilight of his career. Murray, who was far more physical and had a much better shot, won the Selke Trophy as the league's top defensive player at age 23, something we wouldn't be surprised to see matched by O'Reilly."

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1423
I'm a huge fan of O'Reilly and I'd kill to acquire him. But, I wouldn't trade Burns for him. Burns is the #1 untouchable Shark in my mind.

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02-10-2013, 05:53 PM
  #371
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Originally Posted by Blades of Glory View Post
I generally like what hockeyprospectus has to say, but in this case, they are making a blind statistical comparison without using much context. There is simply no chance that Ryan O'Reilly turns into an offensive player of the caliber of Thornton or Messier. Don't get me wrong, O'Reilly is a very valuable two-way center, especially considering he is only 20. Already an elite defensive player, he probably has the potential to develop into someone capable of putting up 70 points a season on a consistent basis. He consistently outplays some of the toughest competition in the NHL. In terms of pure value, taking age and future production into account, he may be worth Brent Burns. But to the Sharks, Burns is far, far more valuable than O'Reilly ever would be. The Sharks have depth down the middle that no other team in the NHL can match. The difference is that because they lack top six wingers, and because Pavelski and Marleau fit so well with Thornton, they basically utilize 4 legitimate top-six centers in their top six, 3 as wingers. Ryan O'Reilly adds nothing to the Sharks. They need a winger, preferably one that can add a dimension of goalscoring and speed on the second line that Ryane Clowe can't. Burns is incredibly valuable to a puck possession team like the Sharks. Dan Boyle is amazing, and is probably the most important player on the team right now. But he isn't going to play at this level forever. Burns is only 27, signed long-term at a very reasonable price (especially compared to what lesser defensemen are getting nowadays, and he has a skillset that only 2-3 other players at his position in the NHL can lay claim to possessing. He's 6-5, is an elite skater and provides an offensive impact from the blueline that (when he is at the top of his game) is probably only exceeded by one other defenseman in the NHL (Erik Karlsson). He is absolutely vital to the Sharks' future, one that actually is quite a bit brighter than some people like to claim.*
I agreed that the quote I pulled goes a little overboard, but the point was to show O'Reilly is underrated. They did factor in a lot more than just offensive numbers which I think you're discounting. The article mostly compared his impact to Pavel Datsyuk and Patrice Bergeron. Bergeron for Burns doesn't sound as crazy.

Comparing Burns' offensive impact to Erik Karlsson's is ridiculous. He's a talented player but Karlsson is 30-40 points better than Burns right now.*Burns isn't even the best offensive d-man on the Sharks.

I'm not saying we should do this trade (it hurts team chemistry, possibly puts Murray back in the starting lineup, etc) or that we would do this (O'Reilly signed with a KHL team during the lockout, which probably scares DW). O'Reilly would give us 3 of the best lines in franchise history. It would actually make our roster younger for future seasons and give us a contingency plan for the post-Thornton era (with Couture/O'Reilly as a 1-2 punch for years). Demers and Braun are then given more ice time to grow/develop while playing their natural position, RD.*
O'Reilly could play tough minutes too, freeing up Thornton (or maybe Pavelski for once!) to show off more of their offensive game. He could add a lot more to our group than "nothing," as you put it. Hell, the potential to go from Handzus to O'Reilly should be more than enough incentive.*

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02-10-2013, 06:00 PM
  #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magic school bus View Post
I agreed that the quote I pulled goes a little overboard, but the point was to show O'Reilly is underrated. They did factor in a lot more than just offensive numbers which I think you're discounting. The article mostly compared his impact to Pavel Datsyuk and Patrice Bergeron. Bergeron for Burns doesn't sound as crazy.

Comparing Burns' offensive impact to Erik Karlsson's is ridiculous. He's a talented player but Karlsson is 30-40 points better than Burns right now.*Burns isn't even the best offensive d-man on the Sharks.

I'm not saying we should do this trade (it hurts team chemistry, possibly puts Murray back in the starting lineup, etc) or that we would do this (O'Reilly signed with a KHL team during the lockout, which probably scares DW). O'Reilly would give us 3 of the best lines in franchise history. It would actually make our roster younger for future seasons and give us a contingency plan for the post-Thornton era (with Couture/O'Reilly as a 1-2 punch for years). Demers and Braun are then given more ice time to grow/develop while playing their natural position, RD.*
O'Reilly could play tough minutes too, freeing up Thornton (or maybe Pavelski for once!) to show off more of their offensive game. He could add a lot more to our group than "nothing," as you put it. Hell, the potential to go from Handzus to O'Reilly should be more than enough incentive.*
Pavelski signed with the KHL this year too. I dont think that would really bother DW.

But what would bother him is the fact that RoR is holding out. I would not be opposed about having him on the Sharks but not for Burns. Plus .. I am expecting him to want upwards of 4.5M/year.

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02-10-2013, 06:08 PM
  #373
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I remember O'Reilly signing a weird 2-year deal with a KHL team which started all the speculation that he was staying there. Obviously, that was BS but I don't remember anything like that with Pavelski's situation during the lockout.

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02-10-2013, 06:11 PM
  #374
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Here's what would be interesting about O'Reilly, though. He's basically a Pavelski type of player. So if we were to acquire O'Reilly, would that not free up the Sharks to trade Pavelski for a winger like Kessel? Then, play Thornton-Kessel in softer minutes? Marleau would be O'Reilly's Landeskog, then let some other winger ride shotty with Thornton/Kessel, like Galiardi or Wingels?

Also, a Couture-O'Reilly 1-2 center punch is acceptable once Thornton/Marleau retire/decline (I'm imagining Thornton in the #3C role).

When it comes to trading for O'Reilly, though, I can't imagine a way to get him without giving up Vlasic.

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02-10-2013, 06:14 PM
  #375
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I remember O'Reilly signing a weird 2-year deal with a KHL team which started all the speculation that he was staying there. Obviously, that was BS but I don't remember anything like that with Pavelski's situation during the lockout.
It wasn't really BS. As far as I know, he did sign a 2-year contract in the KHL (tried to use it as leverage). They mutually terminated the contract a couple weeks ago though.

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