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Old
02-10-2013, 12:29 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deliciouspie View Post
when placed in contrast with such controversial ideas as "don't destroy the environment, that's not cool" and "gay people are okay to play sports" you'll forgive me if i don't think that an ethos that in many ways boils down to "minorities scare me" isn't worth treating in the same way
Yeah.. people like you are a big problem of what's wrong with this Country unfortunately.

You can disagree with them without calling them dumb. Don't be ignorant.

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02-10-2013, 12:35 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
No kidding! Ference is just misguided.
this got a couple chuckles out of me, welldone

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Originally Posted by SerenityRick View Post
Yeah.. people like you are a big problem of what's wrong with this Country unfortunately.

You can disagree with them without calling them dumb. Don't be ignorant.
look, on the one hand, i kind of agree with you inasmuch that people should be respectful of other people's opinions: for example, you and i could have a well reasoned talk about, say, the effects of a minimum income and what that might mean to the economy

i'm cool with that

on the other hand, what thomas believes in is so far off the reservation as to be totally asinine and inconsistent as a worldview and i'm not sure what else to call it

i'll call it inconsistent and asinine if it makes everyone feel better

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02-10-2013, 12:44 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by deliciouspie View Post
when placed in contrast with such controversial ideas as "don't destroy the environment, that's not cool" and "gay people are okay to play sports" you'll forgive me if i don't think that an ethos that in many ways boils down to "minorities scare me" isn't worth treating in the same way
Are you referring to Tim Thomas? Because if that's the case, (a) I don't see how "minorities scare me" is a necessary premise underlying his statements; and (b) you're judging his public speech based on what you presume its underlying ethos is. There's no evidence that I know of that supports the notion that that is in fact his ethos.

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02-10-2013, 12:48 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
No..
If that's the case than prepare for the backlash. Stop blaming the media and whomever for what happened to Thomas.

Go ahead, speak your mind but with that comes criticism from people that disagree with you. I find the Thomas supporters do not understand that. They think people should have card blanche to say whatever they want. That's not the case.

And mind you, Thomas was moving well before this became a huge media story. His family moved during the middle of the season well before the big blow up.

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02-10-2013, 12:50 PM
  #80
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Roughly half the Country, as it usually is, disagree with who's running the Country. If you want to split hairs in terms of just how many of those are passionate about about their disagreement then fine. Whatever.
You can choose to neatly split the nation into left and right if you'd like. It's not reality, but whatever.

Whether you like it or not, most of he country is relatively centrist -- and probably open to some sort of compromise that allows at least some room for the other guys opinion.

Then there are the extreme left or extreme right --- "my way is the right way, your way sucks, and by definition so do you" sort of silliness.

I love TT as a goalie. If pushed I would align with the party I strongly suspect he does. Still, with that said, I could give two cents about his views on ANYTHING outside of hockey.

TT won Boston a Cup. That doesn't make him a God or immune to people passing judgement on issues HE chose to make public. For those that say he deserves nothing but gratitude or praise for what he delivered to Boston, please don't let me see you slagging off Ray Lewis (and, no, I'm not saying RL = TT). However, being a great athlete who delivers great results does NOT necessarily define you as a great person.

B the way, I'm not saying TT is a good, bad, or indifferent person. Simply taking major issue with those who say I can't criticize the guy or lament the way he chose to go out simply because he won "us" a Cup. (By the way, if I'm wrong on that, can someone please tell me when I get my day with the Cup? )

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02-10-2013, 12:54 PM
  #81
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Wasn't this topic about Tim Thomas and not about peoples beliefs systems?


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02-10-2013, 12:56 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
If that's the case than prepare for the backlash. Stop blaming the media and whomever for what happened to Thomas.

Go ahead, speak your mind but with that comes criticism from people that disagree with you. I find the Thomas supporters do not understand that. They think people should have card blanche to say whatever they want. That's not the case.

And mind you, Thomas was moving well before this became a huge media story. His family moved during the middle of the season well before the big blow up.
His political views are nothing compared to what he brought to the team and he walked away from millions to be with his family. People can ***** and moan about what they like, but they're fools if they're holding a grudge against Tim Thomas (unless they blame him for Vancouver burning down- might have a case with that one).

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02-10-2013, 01:02 PM
  #83
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i don't think anyone was particularly angry with thomas beyond the whole not reporting thing

history will see him as a great goalie who had views that are extremely odious to a lot of people and was a weird dude, the only points of contention left are whether the media led to him losing it, he led to him losing it, or whatever it is we're meta-arguing about

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02-10-2013, 01:07 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by deliciouspie View Post
i don't think anyone was particularly angry with thomas beyond the whole not reporting thing

history will see him as a great goalie who had views that are extremely odious to a lot of people and was a weird dude, the only points of contention left are whether the media led to him losing it, he led to him losing it, or whatever it is we're meta-arguing about
I don't think he lost it. IMO he achieved everything he ever wanted and decided that at this point in his life his family was #1. When the Olympics come around it will be a new mountain to climb. Maybe he'll start climbing then.

It's not crazy, IMO it's amazingly sane.

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02-10-2013, 01:09 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by WhatsABruin View Post
Wasn't this topic about Tim Thomas and not about peoples beliefs systems?

Well, it's a thread that, by its title, appears to invite "reflections" on TT. Since TT opted to be not just a goalie, but also a political advocate, and since his most prominent public gesture in support of that advocacy was carried out through boycott of a highly publicized team event, an open discussion devoted to our reflections on TT's legacy is bound to bring our own belief systems to the fore, and so it should.

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02-10-2013, 01:10 PM
  #86
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in that light, to be consistent: good for him for putting family first

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02-10-2013, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
His political views are nothing compared to what he brought to the team and he walked away from millions to be with his family. People can ***** and moan about what they like, but they're fools if they're holding a grudge against Tim Thomas (unless they blame him for Vancouver burning down- might have a case with that one).
I don't hold a grudge but I don't respect the way he left. No anger, no malice but he left the team in one of the most bizarre ways you can. It wasn't about fully about family but a hodge podge of zany reasons that makes me think he has some mental issues and misguided paranoia. None of which I can respect.

He's gone now, he helped bring a Cup back to Boston, I will think of him that way and nothing more from now on. To me; Gerry Cheevers, will be the best #30 to wear a Bruin sweater. He brought two Cups

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02-10-2013, 01:16 PM
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I don't hold a grudge but I don't respect the way he left. No anger, no malice but he left the team in one of the most bizarre ways you can. It wasn't about fully about family but a hodge podge of zany reasons that makes me think he has some mental issues and misguided paranoia. None of which I can respect.

He's gone now, he helped bring a Cup back to Boston, I will think of him that way and nothing more from now on. To me; Gerry Cheevers, will be the best #30 to wear a Bruin sweater. He brought two Cups
Conn Smythe

But hey, we all have our favorites

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02-10-2013, 01:47 PM
  #89
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I know politics isn’t allowed so I will tread lightly and exit. Anytime a politician takes time for a photo-op, there’s nothing apolitical about it. Politicians are public figures and publicity with other popular public figures creates a positive association for the politician. I can understand why someone wouldn’t want to lend themselves in support of a politician they abhor.

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02-10-2013, 02:07 PM
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I know politics isn’t allowed so I will tread lightly and exit. Anytime a politician takes time for a photo-op, there’s nothing apolitical about it. Politicians are public figures and publicity with other popular public figures creates a positive association for the politician. I can understand why someone wouldn’t want to lend themselves in support of a politician they abhor.
However, this is a time honored event for every pro team that wins the Championship to go meet the Prez and have a luncheon. This goes way back. I can't think of any other player that skipped out over political reasons. Maybe if he just didn't go, made up an excuse and didn't post on Facebook, this would not have been a big deal.

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02-10-2013, 02:12 PM
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I don't disagree that the Boston sports journos had a double standard with regards to TT and the White House, but the point of comparison should be Theo Epstein (whose non-show went mostly unnoticed), not Muhammad Ali, for pete's sake.

Ali keeps getting brought up in relation to TT, but the comparison is ludicrous on so many levels. Ali (Clay) was in fact vilified by the mainstream media for his draft evasion on conscientious objector grounds, but that's hardly the entire price he paid. He was arrested, stripped of his title and license, and couldn't box for several years (four IIRC). He fought his case all the way to the Supreme Court. He was also a black man in an era of highly polarized racial tensions, a Nation of Islam convert, and, oh yeah, the single most famous athlete in the planet (quite possibly the single most famous name worldwide, period). What's more, he was not shy about expressing his opinions in any forum...quite the contrary.

I respect Thomas for expressing himself as a citizen as well as for the struggles he's had to overcome on his road to the summit of hockey, but you just can't compare him with Ali without simplifying reality to the point of falsehood, and without, in a sense, doing a disservice to both men. So please, let's keep Ali out of this.

I do wish TT well, am grateful for what he gave to this franchise, and hope Tuukka will clear the crease of Canucks and the like with as much bear-like ferocity!
Who brought up Ali? That was mine! I made that analogy a few months ago. Mostly to just piss people off, and illustrate some of the hypocrisy when it comes to the 1st amendment. No reasonable person would seriously compare what Ali went through in the 1960's, w/ the repercussions of outing yourself as a republican in Massachusetts in 2011. I mean, seriously.

However, there are some parallels in regard to their respective sports you may have overlooked. Subtract the politics, race, and civil rights element out of it, and you're left w/ a boxer who no one in their right mind believed could beat Sonny Liston. Ali, Clay as you call him, made the more menacing Liston, a man known to break bone w/ his power, quit on his stool like a chump in 6 rounds. Ali had the hand speed of a lightweight, and moved unlike any other 6'4" 220 pound heavyweight anyone had ever seen. Furthermore, fought w/ his guard low, daring opponents to try and hit him, counter punching from his hips, even dangerously pulling his head back from punches. Something that would get you thrown out of any boxing gym worth it's salt today, let alone the early 60's. Some would call the above unorthodox.

Thomas also had a unique, aggressive, and unorthodox approach to his sport. So much so, he was consistently passed over for the better part of his career for goalies w/ a more accepted, or conventional style. No one wanted to take a chance on a guy who broke all the rules. Calm down, obviously not comparable to refusing induction to the armed forces, but still out of TT's control. Yet, he was still a champion everywhere he played. No one in their right mind believed Tim Thomas was going to stick on any NHL roster as a starter, let alone win a Vezina trophy. But, he did, and he did it his way. When Tuukka took his job in 2010, most assumed we had already seen the best of Tim Thomas. Furthermore, it was even rumored at the 2010 trade deadline, that he (thankfully) exercised his NTC, turning down trades to both Washington, and Philadelphia. Many thought Ali was finished after losing to Frazier, then losing to a lightly regarded former Marine, Ken Norton. Therefore, absolutely no one thought he stood any chance of remaining vertical against the younger, more powerful, and seemingly unbeatable George Foreman. Wrong again, and Ali became champion for the 2nd time in his career.

Tim Thomas? Retook the starting job from Tuukka after being written off by most, putting up historic stats in both the regular season and playoffs, leading the Bruins to their first Cup in 39 years. Not to mention earning a Conn Smythe, and a second Vezina to boot. I'd say that made him the undisputed heavyweight champion of goaltenders, as well as underdogs.

Both were given a snowball's chance in hell.
Both had styles that made them profoundly unique in their sport.
Both were champions.
Both were continuously doubted throughout their careers.
Both, yes, benefited from the rope-a-dope.
Both had issues w/ the democratic party.

There's boxing fans that hate Ali to this day b/c of a myriad of things he did, and said, in and out of the ring. That's fine. People can have their hate I guess. He was certainly no saint. The same people who put him up on a pedestal like to forget some of the things he said a/b fellow African American, Joe Frazier. Some of which probably earned him the beating of his life at the very hands of Frazier. Some of his statements, on race, undoubtedly the good teachings from The Nation, put him right on par w/ any klansman. To me, those people are completely missing the plot. None of it changes the fact he was the most exciting fighter to watch in the ring to date. Lets not forget the greatest boxer who ever lived.

Also why we celebrate Dr. Martin Luther King day, and not Muhammad Ali day. MLK was a leader, who btw supported Ali, but thank god, did not share in some of his views. Ironically enough, MLK wasn't a fan of the democrats, either. Ali was a boxer, albeit a boxer who transcended his sport through extraordinary courage outside of the ring. Thomas, isn't in his league in that department, so, poor comparison. In a perfect world, Ali would have been permitted to just be a boxer. Lets grant TT the courtesy we couldn't give Ali, and just let him be a goalie.

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02-10-2013, 02:23 PM
  #92
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I don't hold a grudge but I don't respect the way he left. No anger, no malice but he left the team in one of the most bizarre ways you can. It wasn't about fully about family but a hodge podge of zany reasons that makes me think he has some mental issues and misguided paranoia. None of which I can respect.

He's gone now, he helped bring a Cup back to Boston, I will think of him that way and nothing more from now on. To me; Gerry Cheevers, will be the best #30 to wear a Bruin sweater. He brought two Cups
He took a year off to spend with the 3 Fs. Faith, Friends and Family. Now you call that zany and think he has mental issues?

Now I know its wrong for me to assume you're a "lefty" but this is the exact nonsense that comes from that direction. Its also very decisive.

And where is all this crap about him being in a bunker and thinking the government is after us just because he preaches liberty and thinks the government is oppressing such liberties? Only in Boston. (Well maybe SF also. lol)

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02-10-2013, 02:29 PM
  #93
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However, this is a time honored event for every pro team that wins the Championship to go meet the Prez and have a luncheon. This goes way back. I can't think of any other player that skipped out over political reasons. Maybe if he just didn't go, made up an excuse and didn't post on Facebook, this would not have been a big deal.
Packers tight end Mark Chmura refused to meet Clinton because of ‘moral objections’ (pot calling the kettle black) and recently Scott Jassen of the 1985 Chicago Bears refused to meet Obama for political reasons and we all know the Red Sox. Not to mention all the snubs other presidents received from athletes and celebrities due to "scheduling conflicts" (five NASCAR drivers in 2010). Thomas choose to go public, freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom from consequences, so I don’t sympathize with his plight. However, I stated I understand why someone would do what he did and others before him. I’m Canadian, I don’t have a dog in this fight so his politics are irrelevant to me. [/stops replying to this thread and means it this time]


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02-10-2013, 02:35 PM
  #94
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He took a year off to spend with the 3 Fs. Faith, Friends and Family. Now you call that zany and think he has mental issues?

Now I know its wrong for me to assume you're a "lefty" but this is the exact nonsense that comes from that direction. Its also very decisive.

And where is all this crap about him being in a bunker and thinking the government is after us just because he preaches liberty and thinks the government is oppressing such liberties? Only in Boston. (Well maybe SF also. lol)
I think the bunker thing comes from that link he posted on his facebook wall about an impending economic collapse.

http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2012/0...ant-right-now/

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02-10-2013, 02:43 PM
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Well last I heard about Thomas was that he was gator hunting in Florida with friends. Not building a bunker

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02-10-2013, 03:17 PM
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Packers tight end Mark Chmura refused to meet Clinton because of ‘moral objections’ (pot calling the kettle black) and recently Scott Jassen of the 1985 Chicago Bears refused to meet Obama for political reasons and we all know the Red Sox. Not to mention all the snubs other presidents received from athletes and celebrities due to "scheduling conflicts" (five NASCAR drivers in 2010). Thomas choose to go public, freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom from consequences, so I don’t sympathize with his plight. However, I stated I understand why someone would do what he did and others before him. I’m Canadian, I don’t have a dog in this fight so his politics are irrelevant to me. [/stops replying to this thread and means it this time]
I couldn't recall who did what or when (so thank you for the reminder), I am sure there are others too. However, it was only Theo from the Red Sox who was the GM, not any players and he didn't make any facebook remarks or public statements, it went unnoticed....(queue liberal media conspiracy comments)

My only point in this, is because Thomas made it public, he has to bear the consequences of his actions. That's it... Say whatever you want... we have that right but with that right comes criticism.

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02-10-2013, 03:21 PM
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He took a year off to spend with the 3 Fs. Faith, Friends and Family. Now you call that zany and think he has mental issues?

Now I know its wrong for me to assume you're a "lefty" but this is the exact nonsense that comes from that direction. Its also very decisive.

And where is all this crap about him being in a bunker and thinking the government is after us just because he preaches liberty and thinks the government is oppressing such liberties? Only in Boston. (Well maybe SF also. lol)
I think his posting about the impending doom qualifies as bizarre and zany. Sorry, but even moderates think that line of thinking is bizarre and zany. Only extremists walk down that path of thinking. And believe it or not, I am a moderate. I see value in both parties, I am more of a Jack Kemp thinker and he was GOP.

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02-10-2013, 05:29 PM
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Well last I heard about Thomas was that he was gator hunting in Florida with friends. Not building a bunker
Well yeah, I don't think anyone believes he was actually building a bunker. It's just an exaggeration, taking someone's belief and making a joke/pushing it to the extreme. Kinda like I don't think Ference goes around hugging trees all the time.

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02-10-2013, 07:36 PM
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Okay, I'll take Thomas on my team and some of you guys can have what ever politically correct goalie you want want on your team. My goalie has proven he can win a cup. Can yours? That's the bottom line.

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02-10-2013, 10:27 PM
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Okay, I'll take Thomas on my team and some of you guys can have what ever politically correct goalie you want want on your team. My goalie has proven he can win a cup. Can yours? That's the bottom line.
I agree!

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