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Do we need a heavyweight enforcer...

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Old
02-10-2013, 08:30 PM
  #801
S Bah
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Originally Posted by Flying Knee View Post
Well there is some size and toughness coming up on D in the system. Tinordi for one and Dalton Thrower and Darren Dietz , even though not heavyweights , aren't pushovers. That's assuming they all make it to the NHL without being liabilities of course.
The Habs cannot rush these guys to the NHL and ruin their careers,better options are out there believe dat.Why on earth the Habs didn't resign Brad Staubitz is beyond my comprehension.Obviously there are short memories at the top or they just haven't got any idea.Larry Carriere was here behind the bench,Therrien must have had a clue he was on RDS or maybe they thought everyone will fight for their jobs.Another thing about Ryan White I think he's had to many hard bouts and those big lumps on his head have left him punchy,his health could be in question.After the last couple of altercations he had if I was the Habs doctor I would be checking him over completely before something ruins his life.


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02-10-2013, 08:33 PM
  #802
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he is evidence that the NHL talent pool is diluted by 30 teams.
Ok fine but he is obviously NHL (albiet diluted) caliber. Nice to see we can agree.

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02-10-2013, 08:33 PM
  #803
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Orr is apparently not an NHL caliber hockey player but he's played 9 seasons in the NHL. Orr is one of the best at what he does.

Fraser is a 6/7 D 26yo who got his first shot at the NHL and has been really solid.

JVR is a 2nd OVERALL pick - I'm not even sure why he's being discussed in a tough guy thread. He is huge but he is not a fighter, nor did he do anything last night.

McClaren is 25 y.o. enforcer - too young to determine whether he is a 4th liner or not. He can skate though.
Colton Orr plays because of scripted fighting.

390 career games, 11 goals and 10 assists as a forward. Clearly an NHL talent.
He is a goon and that is all. He is tough as nails yes, but is not a guy that should be on the ice more than 5 mins a game.

Chris Neil and Shawn Thornton are much better at hockey, and equally good at fighting. Prust is much better at hockey, but just not in that weight class. McClaren will bounce between AHL and NHL for the next few years at best. Fraser did look okay

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02-10-2013, 08:35 PM
  #804
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Its time we end the continous beatdown we are getting. We have become the NHL laughing stock.
My sincere feeling that this is an issue that will require a captain change and a coaching change. Getting beat up is partially to do with having the personnel - but most of it is about team mentality. I would imagine the requirement of a different captain with a different mentality, with assistants who don't take ****.

And this backed up by a more vocal coach. MT needs to show some emotion and needs to react early in the game. MT only got upset at 6-0 after Orr ran Pleks. There were so many moments before where he should have been raging at his team, at the refs, etc. If your team doesn't come out with emotion, it is your job to instill and incite it within them through your emotion. Instead, he mirrors the apathy of the team which further reinforces it.

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02-10-2013, 08:36 PM
  #805
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You guys are seriously planning to give away roster spots to scrubs just because of Saturday? I think those roster spots are better spent elsewhere.
Well, if you ask me, Armstrong's roster spot is available. This guy is completly useless since the beginning of the season, might as well use this spot for a guy who at least fight.

Plus with guys like Emelin and Gallagher you better have someone who can fight for them.

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02-10-2013, 08:38 PM
  #806
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Originally Posted by blarneylad View Post
Colton Orr plays because of scripted fighting.

390 career games, 11 goals and 10 assists as a forward. Clearly an NHL talent.
He is a goon and that is all. He is tough as nails yes, but is not a guy that should be on the ice more than 5 mins a game.

Chris Neil and Shawn Thornton are much better at hockey, and equally good at fighting. Prust is much better at hockey, but just not in that weight class. McClaren will bounce between AHL and NHL for the next few years at best. Fraser did look okay
no!!

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02-10-2013, 08:40 PM
  #807
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Originally Posted by blarneylad View Post
Colton Orr plays because of scripted fighting.

390 career games, 11 goals and 10 assists as a forward. Clearly an NHL talent.
He is a goon and that is all. He is tough as nails yes, but is not a guy that should be on the ice more than 5 mins a game.

Chris Neil and Shawn Thornton are much better at hockey, and equally good at fighting. Prust is much better at hockey, but just not in that weight class. McClaren will bounce between AHL and NHL for the next few years at best. Fraser did look okay
Fortunately for Orr his job is to fight and enforce not score goals. How many fighting majors has Orr had and how many pims? Believe it or not that's what he is employed to do. When you are the best at anything there is a market for you. Orr happens to be one of the best fighters in the world and gets paid good money to do it. That just the way it is mate.

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02-10-2013, 08:40 PM
  #808
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What I think we're missing is a 6'5 or something guy who can drop the gloves...I mean I love Prust and our guys, but when big boys like that come, our guys can't do anything. Tinordi maybe?
**** no!

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02-10-2013, 08:42 PM
  #809
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Well, if you ask me, Armstrong's roster spot is available. This guy is completly useless since the beginning of the season, might as well use this spot for a guy who at least fight.

Plus with guys like Emelin and Gallagher you better have someone who can fight for them.
I disagree, Prust is there for that reason. Prust is one of the best in his weight class. The heavyweights aren't needed. It would be nice to have one on call up though.

MacIntyre would be my choice. Games like that don't happen often. Fighting rarely plays a factor in the habs losses.

Lack of size does, we need size that can play NHL caliber minutes. LA didn't win the cup with goons, they had size though to win puck battles down low, and the talent to complement the size to get the puck in the net. Kopitar, Penner, Brown etc aren't fighters.

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02-10-2013, 08:43 PM
  #810
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Colton Orr plays because of scripted fighting.

390 career games, 11 goals and 10 assists as a forward. Clearly an NHL talent.
He is a goon and that is all. He is tough as nails yes, but is not a guy that should be on the ice more than 5 mins a game.

Chris Neil and Shawn Thornton are much better at hockey, and equally good at fighting. Prust is much better at hockey, but just not in that weight class. McClaren will bounce between AHL and NHL for the next few years at best. Fraser did look okay
I guess its a matter of style - depending on how the coach structures the team. Orr was on Ron Wilson's team previously and was beyond useless because he wasn't utilized effectively. Under Carlyle, you can definitely see the effect of having such guys on the bench. The team in general is a lot more rowdy, especially in front of their own net. Guys like Kostka (who has basically never fought in his life) fought, albeit against a really small player. But its something you wouldn't see. Thus, I guess it really depends on whether you believe enforcers act as a "buff" for the team, making everyone feel a bit bigger, safer, more argumentative. Watching the team, I would tend to believe it.

Chris Neil is a better hockey player - but no where close to the fighter Orr is. And not even close to the same weight class as McClaren or Orr. Shawn Thornton is better I agree, but he is a rare player - I would love to have him on any team.

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02-10-2013, 08:45 PM
  #811
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Originally Posted by lampshade View Post
Fortunately for Orr his job is to fight and enforce not score goals. How many fighting majors has Orr had and how many pims? Believe it or not that's what he is employed to do. When you are the best at anything there is a market for you. Orr happens to be one of the best fighters in the world and gets paid good money to do it. That just the way it is mate.
I agree with you, but I really don't think guys like him are game changers. Out of the others mentioned, Orr is the best choice.

But there are plenty of guys tougher than Orr that just can't handle a shift in the NHL. Orr can get by. Barely imo

John Scott can't play but is tough, MacIntyre is tough but has trouble playing in the AHL. Thornton is my favourite enforcer though I hate that he plays for the Bruins.

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02-10-2013, 08:48 PM
  #812
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Well, if you ask me, Armstrong's roster spot is available. This guy is completly useless since the beginning of the season, might as well use this spot for a guy who at least fight.

Plus with guys like Emelin and Gallagher you better have someone who can fight for them.
Armstrong is the biggest ever. Since he lost his patented headshot delivery when opposing players come around the net, he has basically lost his role. Now he gets to tell jokes for millions.

My point is that everyone on the team just needs a change in mindset. Everyone has to fight for each other. Adding an enforcer or two doesn't make a team tough. The Leafs in previous years weren't tough just because they had Orr. Coaching, systems, and leadership need to push the idea that if a wrong done, it doesn't matter if you are Markov, Galchenyuk or Prust, you confront the issue. That is toughness.

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02-10-2013, 08:49 PM
  #813
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**** no!
Explanation? I'm not too informed on the kid?

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02-10-2013, 08:54 PM
  #814
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I agree with you, but I really don't think guys like him are game changers. Out of the others mentioned, Orr is the best choice.

But there are plenty of guys tougher than Orr that just can't handle a shift in the NHL. Orr can get by. Barely imo

John Scott can't play but is tough, MacIntyre is tough but has trouble playing in the AHL. Thornton is my favourite enforcer though I hate that he plays for the Bruins.
I agree that Orr is not a game changer, per se. But I think he is an important player to have in a system that Carlyle is trying to instill - heavy forechecking, team mate support, goalie protection, take nothing from not.

It is all about whether you believe having an enforcer helps everyone feel bigger, more vocal, and more argumentative on the ice. It is whether you believe the team is more comfortable playing having a guy like Orr on the bench to answer the bell instead of you if someone else gets out of line.

Everyone believes different things.

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02-10-2013, 08:55 PM
  #815
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Explanation? I'm not too informed on the kid?
not good enough at fighting to go near a heavyweight

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02-10-2013, 08:59 PM
  #816
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I disagree, Prust is there for that reason. Prust is one of the best in his weight class. The heavyweights aren't needed. It would be nice to have one on call up though.

MacIntyre would be my choice. Games like that don't happen often. Fighting rarely plays a factor in the habs losses.

Lack of size does, we need size that can play NHL caliber minutes. LA didn't win the cup with goons, they had size though to win puck battles down low, and the talent to complement the size to get the puck in the net. Kopitar, Penner, Brown etc aren't fighters.
It is true that Brown, Penner, Richards, Carter aren't fighters but if needed they can take care of themselves. Most of our forwards can't.

If we go get an heavywheight, nothing oblige you to make him play every single games, just use him when it's needed.

Like I said in my previous post, when you have players like gallaher and Emelin, you absolutely need someone to fight for them and Prust can't do that on his own, especially not against our division rivals.

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02-10-2013, 09:02 PM
  #817
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The Habs cannot rush these guys to the NHL and ruin their careers,better options are out there believe dat.Why on earth the Habs didn't resign Brad Staubitz is beyond my comprehension.Obviously there are short memories at the top or they just haven't got any idea.Larry Carriere was here behind the bench,Therrien must have had a clue he was on RDS or maybe they thought everyone will fight for their jobs.Another thing about Ryan White I think he's had to many hard bouts and those big lumps on his head have left him punchy,his health could be in question.After the last couple of altercations he had if I was the Habs doctor I would be checking him over completely before something ruins his life.
I'm not saying we should rush tem or that there aren't better alternatives out there. Just that those guys could be options from within the system in the future. They are all at least 2+ years away from the NHL imho and that's if they all make it.

I'm just happy that we do have them in the pipeline , especially on D.

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02-10-2013, 09:32 PM
  #818
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I agree with you, but I really don't think guys like him are game changers. Out of the others mentioned, Orr is the best choice.

But there are plenty of guys tougher than Orr that just can't handle a shift in the NHL. Orr can get by. Barely imo

John Scott can't play but is tough, MacIntyre is tough but has trouble playing in the AHL. Thornton is my favourite enforcer though I hate that he plays for the Bruins.
Thornton is without question the best fighter/player however as a enforcer Orr is the best since Brasheer. Notice how I say enforcer (not necessarily fighter) I think Big Mac along with Boogard and Laraque were better fighters then Orr. The difference is a enforcer like Orr will do what he did yesterday. He will stand up for his teammates any time and do whatever it takes. The others I've mentioned don't do this as well as Orr. Orr is no question a dying breed but on the right team and under the right hc/management there is still room left for true enforcers.

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02-10-2013, 10:05 PM
  #819
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Originally Posted by lampshade View Post
Thornton is without question the best fighter/player however as a enforcer Orr is the best since Brasheer. Notice how I say enforcer (not necessarily fighter) I think Big Mac along with Boogard and Laraque were better fighters then Orr. The difference is a enforcer like Orr will do what he did yesterday. He will stand up for his teammates any time and do whatever it takes. The others I've mentioned don't do this as well as Orr. Orr is no question a dying breed but on the right team and under the right hc/management there is still room left for true enforcers.
Orr can agitate as well as throw hits. So he does merit some NHL time. He fits in well with the leafs, and Habs would love to add a guy like that for the fourth line.

But imo, Montreal in order to get better, needs to get some size with skill. Cole was a good addition, except he isn't playing very well yet this season.

Habs as a team sucked saturday night. having a fighter would not have won that game. But yes, having some toughness helps, I'd love to see a guy to insert into the lineup once and awhile. I like what I see from Pat Biladeau,

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02-10-2013, 10:38 PM
  #820
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Orr can agitate as well as throw hits. So he does merit some NHL time. He fits in well with the leafs, and Habs would love to add a guy like that for the fourth line.

But imo, Montreal in order to get better, needs to get some size with skill. Cole was a good addition, except he isn't playing very well yet this season.

Habs as a team sucked saturday night. having a fighter would not have won that game. But yes, having some toughness helps, I'd love to see a guy to insert into the lineup once and awhile. I like what I see from Pat Biladeau,
Its a coaching and leadership issue.

I didn't see anyone open their mouth and show some passion until it was 6-0.

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02-10-2013, 10:41 PM
  #821
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I've been preaching for so bloody long. We need to beef up the team. Beef up the top 6, beef up the D. Some fans agreed, most didn't.

We're starting to move in that direction but need to get bigger and meaner. Gio should be moved along with DD. Tinordi needs to come up at the end of the year or next year. A heavyweight should be added on D and at the forward position.

We need to shed that soft image.
Amen. I have been right along with you preaching the same message.

I think that Bergevin gets it. I look for some changes coming at the end of this season. Hopefully sooner.

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02-10-2013, 10:47 PM
  #822
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Not necessarily. Komarov declined Prust, which led to Grabo inserting himself stupidly.

Who's to say that Laraque wouldn't have been on the bench, neutralizing him completely. Orr gets thrown out (or a pathetic double minor...****ing league), then what? Whoever he challenges, skates away since they aren't brave like our so called midgets. Even Lucy did. Multiple times. You could cheapshot our entire team as long as Laraque isn't on the ice. Then when he is on, he would HAVE to pull a Ryan White (I really hope that doesn't stick as a "thing") to be able to pummel anyone. OR, he would have to try to knee someone or smash their head in the ground (too slow for that). So many scenarios where other teams who have baby cats for players can avoid an actual heavyweight of ours.

Not saying we shouldn't consider it, just that we need to be prepared for the situation in which we get someone..."too good", that he never gets to exert his presence. And no, Laraque didn't prevent our guys from getting cheapshotted.
There is a term for what you are doing.

Fretting.

There is no fretting in hockey.

If we have a heavyweight on the bench and one of our players is cheapshotted with the intent to injure, the next time that the cheapshotter is on the ice, insert the heavyweight, have him skate up to the cheapshotter and drop the gloves and commence to pounding.

Sure, he will get a 2-5-10 but the message will be sent loud and clear. Leave the talented players alone.

Its that simple.

What we are now seeing is the alternative to that approach. And its not pretty nor is it conductive to winning.

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02-10-2013, 10:49 PM
  #823
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Staubitz: still don't understand why he wasn't re-signed.

White should have been dressed vs the Leafs (Prust can't take care of Orr, McLAren,etc, all by himself). Some of you blame White, but...now you want him back and will ask him to help us after making him the scapegoat (never ever sit White when we play the GOON LEAFS...never).

MINIMUM vs GOON LEAFS: the minimum we need vs goon teams like the Leafs and Bruins...White and Prust (not dressing White vs the Leafs was a ****ing stupid mistake...time to make coach Therrien the scapegoat and not White). And not sure what is going on with Moen and Armstrong...early retirement? I'm still a fan of Moen...he plays well by not being noticed (no mistakes), but still...would be good to notice him sometimes for some huge hits or some protection. He's still a warrior imo, but we need more (still think he's a playoff warrior).

Gorges: he's our #3 all-heart dman...too important to fight a nobody AHL LEAF GOON. I don't ever want to see him risk an injury vs a nobody GOON ever again. He's too important to our Habs. ****ing stupid that we don't have anyone to do that goon job for Gorges. Every ****ing year we talk about this. And at the very least...White should have been there instead of being made the scapegoat for some recent losses. We lost 6-0 vs the AHL Leafs...going to blame White again?


Armstrong: hope coach Therrien tells him to wake up and show more grit (not more penalties but just more grit and toughness) like when he was with Pitts and Atlanta...he's like damaged goods for us (same with Laraque...just here to collect paychecks). It's good armstrong is not injured as usual...but he might as well be the way he's playing (huge/tall guy that doesn't add any grit to the game...looks like he's done...hope I'm wrong as long as he's a Hab).


Galchenyuk, Markov, Subban, Gorges...don't get paid to fight GOONS...

We need a policeman right ****ing now...I don't want to wait before our Gorges, Subban, Markov, Galchenyuk, Gallagher...get seriously injured/beaten up by a GOON.

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02-10-2013, 10:53 PM
  #824
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This thread is pure lol.

All you need to do is tell Prust to his ass on the bench and not rile up the other team. His job is to provide energy to Montreal, not boost up the other team.

You guys are seriously planning to give away roster spots to scrubs just because of Saturday? I think those roster spots are better spent elsewhere.
How are you Pierre? Is the weather nice in Chicago? And when will you be coming out with some new songs?

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02-10-2013, 11:35 PM
  #825
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Some of you come off as being ok with our players being cheapshotted if it means a 50% chance of a power play followed by a 20% chance of scoring a goal.

You can't see the forest for the trees.

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