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Is Teemu Selanne a top 10 forward of all time?

View Poll Results: Is Teemu Selanne a Top 10 forward of all time
Yes 54 15.43%
No 296 84.57%
Voters: 350. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-10-2013, 06:44 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Selanne didn't stand out as some kind of generational talent in his career, but he was very good for the vast majority of his career.
Again, you are talking about him in the past tense. As I suspected before, nothing that he does now couldn't make you rate him higher? Hell, what if he proceeds to play 3 more seasons with near ppg numbers? Yeah yeah, that's all nice longevity and stat padding for sure, but since he isn't in his prime anymore and by no means dominant, it doesn't really matter, huh?

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02-10-2013, 08:09 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Oan View Post
Again, you are talking about him in the past tense. As I suspected before, nothing that he does now couldn't make you rate him higher? Hell, what if he proceeds to play 3 more seasons with near ppg numbers? Yeah yeah, that's all nice longevity and stat padding for sure, but since he isn't in his prime anymore and by no means dominant, it doesn't really matter, huh?
exactly he is still playing at an extremely high level, it's not the swan song that guy Lafleur came back for, Temmu still has an extreme amount of value and has had it basically for his entire career.

Consistency at an extremely high level should count for something right?

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02-10-2013, 08:16 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
You'd easily rank Selanne ahead of Bucyk, Lach, Keon, Hawerchuck (very underrated), Sittler, and so on? I think all those players i listed have some pretty outstanding achievments in their careers and could certainly have an agument made for them. I agree the Robitalle comp. is baloney, and it's not unreasonable to argue he's top 25-50 but i don't think it's easy either. Top 10 is ludicrous, top 20 probably is too. I've never tried to rank guys but if i guessed how it would play out Selanne for me is probably in the 40's-50's.

After a point it get's really hard to say where a guy should rank, you could easily argue Crosby has already surpassed him in overall greatness. What i do know is that Selanne is a very very tough player to argue as top 10 all time. As for the 15 players i think one guy made a pretty obvious list in this thread. Tony d also made a good one and he didn't include guys like Esposito, Trottier, Malone, Sakic, Yzerman, Blake, Morenz, Messier, Lindsay, Moore, Gainey, Dionne, Conacher, Mahovlich, Lalonde, Bossy, and some of the players i already listed i do think are pretty clearly better. There's been list's already posted, i just think there's some very good players that are being forgotten. Selanne didn't stand out as some kind of generational talent in his career, but he was very good for the vast majority of his career. He's not an easy argument to make as top 20 unless you ignore multiple generations of players.
If you only value peak then sure one might rate Crosby ahead of Selanne but I like to take a guys entire career into context.

The guys in bold that you mentioned all pale in comparison to Temmu for a variety of reasons.

1st and foremost do any of those players have as many top 10 finishes in goals, assists and points like Temmu has?

We also have to remember that Temmu is playing in an extremely competitive NHL with huge rates, both in terms of quality and quantity, of non Canadian NHLers' something that wasn't around to any great degree before the trickle in the 70's and 80's to the full onslaught in the 90's and beyond.

He has been a huge impact player as I demonstrated in his 1st 10 years in the NHL and is still an impact player today adding to his legacy.

Maybe not top 10 all time in forwards but easily top 10 in RW and I'd say top 5 as well.

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02-10-2013, 08:46 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Exactly. Jagr has a hard enough time entering the conversation, and he has 3 Ted Lindsay and 5 Art Ross trophies to his credit. Sorry Teemu, you're a bit farther down the list than that, let alone 10th.
Jagr is a top ten all-time player, let alone forward.

As for Selanne, I rank him tenth among RW, just edging out Bure.

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02-10-2013, 10:05 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
If you only value peak then sure one might rate Crosby ahead of Selanne but I like to take a guys entire career into context.

The guys in bold that you mentioned all pale in comparison to Temmu for a variety of reasons.

1st and foremost do any of those players have as many top 10 finishes in goals, assists and points like Temmu has?

We also have to remember that Temmu is playing in an extremely competitive NHL with huge rates, both in terms of quality and quantity, of non Canadian NHLers' something that wasn't around to any great degree before the trickle in the 70's and 80's to the full onslaught in the 90's and beyond.

He has been a huge impact player as I demonstrated in his 1st 10 years in the NHL and is still an impact player today adding to his legacy.

Maybe not top 10 all time in forwards but easily top 10 in RW and I'd say top 5 as well.
Well i can tell you don't know who Elmer Lach is and you weren't alive during the 80's would be my guess too if you don't realize how many time Hawerchuck was top 10 in scoring. Here this is Dale Hawerchucks prime years and how he rated over those 13 years in ppg (min. 300 games in the span of 80-81 to 93-94): http://hkref.com/tiny/hjtkH
Of the players ahead of him i would rank all of them as superior to Selanne. Hawerchuck was a terrific player, only behind Gretzky and Lemieux in ability for much of his career (although Yzerman and Messier could make arguments as well).

With Bucyk much like Selanne he was always elite at his position but other guys like Hull overshadowed him like Jagr did Selanne. Bucyk at the time of his retirement was the 4th highest scoring player of all time and untill Robitalle broke the record the highest scoring LW of all time.

As for the quality of competition being better because of euros i call shenanigins, the leauge had far fewer teams before meaning very good players like Al Arbour would often get buried, the competition in the original 6 days was as strong as it's ever been.

Listen i think Selanne is an unreal player and an all time great, my point is he isn't top 10 and it's not even close. Top 20 seems ludicrous to me, and i've named many a player and reasons as to why. After a while it starts getting hard to rank them as the competition is so close and the differences of era. My point is that Selanne therefore could probably be ranked anywhere from 25 to the 50's but again top 10 or even top 20 is way too high.

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02-10-2013, 10:38 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Well i can tell you don't know who Elmer Lach is and you weren't alive during the 80's would be my guess too if you don't realize how many time Hawerchuck was top 10 in scoring.
I'm not old enough to remember Lach but his 2 best seasons were during WW2 and even with that he only hits the top 10 in scoring, in a 6 team league to boot, 6 times in total.

Hawerchuck was top 10 in scoring exactly 4 times, which surprised me I thought it would have been higher, which is still half of the 8 times Selanne has been top 10. I remember Dale very well and the 80's were high flying with little to no attention paid to defense, especially in the Smythe division with the Oilers, Peg, LA, Canucks and Calgary.


Quote:
Here this is Dale Hawerchucks prime years and how he rated over those 13 years in ppg (min. 300 games in the span of 80-81 to 93-94): http://hkref.com/tiny/hjtkH
Of the players ahead of him i would rank all of them as superior to Selanne. Hawerchuck was a terrific player, only behind Gretzky and Lemieux in ability for much of his career (although Yzerman and Messier could make arguments as well).
Dale is still 9th on that list and that NHL has a much lower non Canadian content than Selanne has had to contend with in his career.

Quote:
With Bucyk much like Selanne he was always elite at his position but other guys like Hull overshadowed him like Jagr did Selanne. Bucyk at the time of his retirement was the 4th highest scoring player of all time and untill Robitalle broke the record the highest scoring LW of all time.
Bucyk benefited from the Bobby Orr and Boston bruin affect and did age quite well with Ratelle after Espo was traded to the NYR.

He also was hardly elite, only being in top 10 in goals 2 times, assists 3 times and points 2 times (in a 6 team league) before Bobby Orr arrived and led the transformation of the Boston Bruins. he still only hit top 10 in points 6 times so how can you have him higher than Temmu? His playoff record in 4 years before the Orr era also is less than Temmu and his resume.

Remember the above top 10 finishes were during Buyck's 1st 11 years, the same time period were Selanne was 2nd in points and 1st in goals against his competition (his 1st 10 years in the NHL).

Quote:
As for the quality of competition being better because of euros i call shenanigins, the leauge had far fewer teams before meaning very good players like Al Arbour would often get buried, the competition in the original 6 days was as strong as it's ever been.
Hey if you want to be absolute about it during the 06 era that's one thing but many of those players you mentioned being better than Temmu were around during rapid expansion from 6-12-14-16 teams with little to no new player pools from Europe or the United States. The problem is that many people want to have it both ways here and that circle doesn't square at all.

Listen i think Selanne is an unreal player and an all time great, my point is he isn't top 10 and it's not even close. Top 20 seems ludicrous to me, and i've named many a player and reasons as to why. After a while it starts getting hard to rank them as the competition is so close and the differences of era. My point is that Selanne therefore could probably be ranked anywhere from 25 to the 50's but again top 10 or even top 20 is way too high.[/QUOTE]

Well I guess this is progress form the "he isn't in the top 50 of all time forwards" where we started here.

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02-10-2013, 10:46 PM
  #82
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A better question is his place among all-time RWers.

With consideration to peak, prime, and career, I'd put him below:

Howe
Richard
Lafleur
Jagr
Bossy
Cook
Geoffrion
Conacher
Bathgate
Makarov
Clapper

I put him in that next tier with Kurri and Brett Hull.

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02-10-2013, 11:02 PM
  #83
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Probably in the top 50 but not close to top 10, when you look at the great American and Europeans over the years. Even during his prime he could have been ranked (not necessarily better career but equal or greater player) outside the top 10 in the league: Lemieux, Gretzky, Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg, Jagr, Messier, Fedorov, Lindros, Hull

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02-10-2013, 11:04 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
A better question is his place among all-time RWers.

With consideration to peak, prime, and career, I'd put him below:

Howe
Richard
Lafleur
Jagr
Bossy
Cook
Geoffrion
Conacher
Bathgate
Makarov
Clapper

I put him in that next tier with Kurri and Brett Hull.
3 questions here

A) does peak and prime have to be consecutive for players?, some people use 5 for peak and 7 or 8 for prime.

B) Do you take into account international career? You must with Makarov right?

C) I don't think anyone uses an exact formula but if a score is out of 100 and we split up regular season, where everyone has the same schedule and amount of games more or less and the playoffs were opponents are different and success is team driven.

what would that split be, just ball park?

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02-10-2013, 11:15 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by AngelDuck View Post
Interested to see your guys' top ten forward lists
Gretzky
Lemiuex
Messier
Howe
Richard
Esposito
Bobby Hull
Yzerman
Lafleur
Dionne
Sakic

Not sure about order.

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02-10-2013, 11:22 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
Gretzky
Lemiuex
Messier
Howe
Richard
Esposito
Bobby Hull
Yzerman
Lafleur
Dionne
Sakic



Not sure about order.
Jagr is better

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02-10-2013, 11:30 PM
  #87
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Jagr is better
Possibly. Rattled the off the top of my head, was bound to miss someone.

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02-11-2013, 12:37 AM
  #88
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Well I guess this is progress form the "he isn't in the top 50 of all time forwards" where we started here.
This is a blatant lie, i never once said that. I said he's not "ensured to be a top 50 forward", i also said "i could list close to 50 players that were better or at least arguably better". Which is to say there are certainly arguments for numerous players being ranked ahead of him. Look at it this way the NHL has over 100 years of history, to be top 50 means, assuming we give equal weight to all decades, that he was a top 5 forward for his decade. You really don't need to fabricate things, i try to respond to things you said and i don't put words in your mouth, so i would certainly appreciate if you didn't do it to me. Have you even been reading what i'm writing or just assuming what i''m writing based on some key words you noticed?

Note: the word arguably means that it's up for debate. I really think the issue is you are very confused with what i had said to begin with.

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02-11-2013, 01:08 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
This is a blatant lie, i never once said that. I said he's not "ensured to be a top 50 forward", i also said "i could list close to 50 players that were better or at least arguably better". Which is to say there are certainly arguments for numerous players being ranked ahead of him. Look at it this way the NHL has over 100 years of history, to be top 50 means, assuming we give equal weight to all decades, that he was a top 5 forward for his decade. You really don't need to fabricate things, i try to respond to things you said and i don't put words in your mouth, so i would certainly appreciate if you didn't do it to me. Have you even been reading what i'm writing or just assuming what i''m writing based on some key words you noticed?

Note: the word arguably means that it's up for debate. I really think the issue is you are very confused with what i had said to begin with.
Well heck, anyone can argue anything, it's not difficult to infer what I inferred was it? Calling my statement a blatant lie is really misleading from where we started.

Selanne's track record is really strong, you can make an argument that Bucyk was better for example, it just doesn't stand up very well.

Guys like Shutt and Sittler even more so.

You also pointed out were Selanne wasn't dominant over his competition when in fact in his 1st 10 years he was 1st in goals and 2nd in points.

If his resume isn't a lock for top 50 forwards of all time then frankly I have no idea on what metric you are using and good luck trying to defend the arguments for some of the guys you listed.

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02-11-2013, 01:34 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by skroonk2002 View Post
Gretzky
Lemieux
Howe
Richard
Beliveau
Hull
Lafleur
Messier
Jagr
Mikita
Esposito
Bossy
Clarke
Trottier
Sakic
Forsberg
Yzerman

You asked if he was "top 10". That is 17 right there, all had better careers than Selanne.

I could list more, but I am feeling lazy.

Selanne has 0 Hart Trophies, 0 Art Ross Trophies, 0 Conn Smythe Trophies, 0 Selke Trophies, etc. Only 1 Stanley Cup (as opposed to multiple Stanley Cups by many players who rank above him). Yes, he has great career statistics. But there have been others with FAR SUPERIOR resumes.

Asking if Selanne is one of the top 10 forwards ever is like asking the same question about Luc Robitaille or Brett Hull. Both Hall-of-Famers, but neither are top 10. Hull is closer than Selanne though. Robitaille and Selanne are about equal.
Selanne's career > Forsberg's career

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02-11-2013, 01:38 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Jagr is a top ten all-time player, let alone forward.

As for Selanne, I rank him tenth among RW, just edging out Bure.
I don't think you can claim that Jagr is a top ten player. Top ten forward, probably, but not a top ten player.

In no order, Gretzky, G. Howe, Messier, M. Richard, Bo. Hull, Bo. Orr, Ph. Esposito, Shore, Roy, Brodeur, Harvey. That`s 11, with a couple goalies, without even thinking hard.

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02-11-2013, 01:44 AM
  #92
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If he was healthy, he'd be knocking on Brett Hull's door for career goals and Phil Esposito's door for career points. But he wasn't healthy. He could be Top-25 for forwards right now. Any higher than that would look kinda funny to me. I mean, even if he was healthy from 2000-2004, is he really going to be much higher than the #15-20 range for forwards on anybody's list? He isn't exactly Bobby Clarke...

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02-11-2013, 01:45 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
I don't think you can claim that Jagr is a top ten player. Top ten forward, probably, but not a top ten player.

In no order, Gretzky, G. Howe, Messier, M. Richard, Bo. Hull, Bo. Orr, Ph. Esposito, Shore, Roy, Brodeur, Harvey. That`s 11, with a couple goalies, without even thinking hard.
You need to elaborate a little, you can't simply just name dropping and claim they are better.

Jagr is arguably better and worse than Espsito, Roy, Harvey, Messier and Broedur. My point is, he can easily be considered better/equal/worse then them, so it's not clear in anyway.

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02-11-2013, 02:29 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
I don't think you can claim that Jagr is a top ten player. Top ten forward, probably, but not a top ten player.

In no order, Gretzky, G. Howe, Messier, M. Richard, Bo. Hull, Bo. Orr, Ph. Esposito, Shore, Roy, Brodeur, Harvey. That`s 11, with a couple goalies, without even thinking hard.
Jagr is arguably top-10 player of all-time. He won't make my list but i can see some good arguments for him in the same category as Esposito, Roy, etc. I would definitely rank him ahead of Brodeur.

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02-11-2013, 02:31 AM
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17th all time in points (6 away from 15th) 12th all time in goals (2 away from jumping Jagr and Robitaille) and that's all after 222 missed games in total pre 05 lockout. Some people think he's not a top 20 forward. Seems legit.

I don't see why longevity is a bad thing in his case. I would think that him being able to play at an elite level even as he approaches the mid-life years makes him one of the game's greats alone (I mean it's just hilarious to see the people who bemoan the fact that he's adding points at a point where others were done playing hockey. Its not as though he's slowly putting in 30 point seasons. In the last 3 seasons combined he has 160 points in 166 games. Call it making up for lost time if you want) But people tend to ask where are the trophies a little too much when it comes to Selanne. He led the league in goal scoring more times than he has Richard trophies, he just happened to be the first to get the award. And as for never being an MVP, he had a ton of all time greats to compete with for the title without as much elite support (Kariya at best). And those are guys that are rightfully being ranked ahead of him. Just cause he didn't do enough to personally top them doesn't mean he wasn't in the same tier though.


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02-11-2013, 07:08 AM
  #96
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I'd really like to see the list of 25+ forwards that some people have in front of Selanne and then hear the actual arguments for the bottom 5 or so.

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02-11-2013, 08:45 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg View Post
The rest can be put to argument... but... really, you'd put Teemu Selanne ahead of Howie Morenz?
Lots of people forgetting about Howie Morenz in this thread. Selanne doesn't go higher for me, but he's probably one of those "all-time greats" that Selanne might not be that far from "overall".

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02-11-2013, 10:35 AM
  #98
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I'm a fan of Teemu, but he's not a top 10 forward of all-time.

I think he has an argument for squeaking into the top 20, and is almost definitely top 30.

It's not like Selanne has been simply compiling since the lockout. He has 475 points in 473 games during that time, and has 46 playoff points in 62 games, including a Cup. That's rather impressive for a player in his mid-late 30s & his 40s. Despite having a couple of very good seasons in Finland before his stellar rookie season in the NHL, and missing almost two seasons to lockouts (although he was not near peak level during the previous two at least), he should be 10th in adjusted points by the end of this season.

I think he's very close to Dionne's level, and Dionne was 18th & 20th in a couple of polls in the History section (IIRC, these were around the time of the '06 season). Selanne was 31st in one of those, but has substantially added to his record since then.

To me he's in the upper part of a large group of players with at least one substantial flaw. In Selanne's case, his playoff record isn't the most impressive, although he did play for a lot of weak teams and his international record helps offset that to some degree. He's not the best two way player, but hardly one of the worst either, and Richard-contending RWs aren't really expected to focus on defense in more modern times.

His production can't be denied. Here's the list of forwards in the top 20 in adjusted points in their best 3, 5, 8, 10, and 15 seasons, as well as career adjusted points (since WWII):

Gretzky
Lemieux
Howe
Jagr
Esposito
Sakic
Yzerman
Beliveau
Mikita
Bobby Hull
Selanne

Forwards who were top 20 in 3,5, 8, and 10 season spans:

Lafleur
Thornton
Forsberg
Trottier

Forwards who have been top 20 over 3 & 5 seasons:

Ovechkin
Malkin
Crosby

Selanne has actually been between 10th & 15th among forwards over each span, including career.

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02-11-2013, 11:40 AM
  #99
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No, and he isn't even close. I like him, and his career has been fantastic, but he has never reached the heights necessary for him to be a top-10 forward of all time. I don't know if I would even put him in the top-20. To get on those lists its reserved for multiple Art Ross winners, Hart winners, etc.

If this thread was for Jagr, I'd say, Yes he is a top-10 forward of all time. But, even then, I'm sure people would make the argument against it and be fairly split.

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02-11-2013, 11:56 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
If he was healthy, he'd be knocking on Brett Hull's door for career goals and Phil Esposito's door for career points. But he wasn't healthy. He could be Top-25 for forwards right now. Any higher than that would look kinda funny to me. I mean, even if he was healthy from 2000-2004, is he really going to be much higher than the #15-20 range for forwards on anybody's list? He isn't exactly Bobby Clarke...
He isn't over rated like Clarke is that's forsure.

Clarke was my favorite player as a kid but get a ton of mileage from his 3 Harts, when two of them clearly should be Orr's.


Clarke was a very good defensive player and leader.

He was top 10 in assists 9 times and points 7 times but it was the freaking watered down 70's too but let's not mention that shall we.

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