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02-10-2013, 08:19 PM
  #76
Interactif
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Fact is there are rarely elite players outside of the top 10 picks, usually you have to go even lower say top 5, I wouldn't give Pens scouts too much credit for picking Crosby or Malkin, these are no brainers, we got it right with Rielly at 5 last year. When most wanted Grigorenko or Forsberg we went for a kid with character, with a repaired ACL, and only 18 games of exposure last season. Not a slam dunk as some claim it was.

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02-10-2013, 08:24 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Dave Morrison really isn't doing anything that special. Take any franchise other than Calgary and you basically have the same results as the Leafs modest success since 2006.

I'm way more impressed with a team like Anaheim which has been stocking up on Rakell, Gibson, Fowler, Vatanen, Etem, Smith-Pelly, Palmieri, Holland, as well as Gardiner and Schultz (under Burke) with non top ten picks the past few years, as well as beating Toronto to the punch to get Hiller as a UFA and Fasth as well.

Sometimes you have to look around at what other people are doing.
Yeah, it's difficult to judge a scouting staff without the benefit of time and hindsight. But the kind of sit up and notice picks that other teams pull off seem to be absent in Toronto. Gardiner and Schultz in Anaheim with the 17th and 43rd picks are good examples that you've given. Potential star players nabbed without the benefit of a top 10 pick makes you wonder who are the gifted bird-dogs doing that. Perhaps in time, one will emerge in Toronto, but are noticeably absent from the Leafs roster right now. Gunnerson and Reimer might be our current best and both may in time turn out, but neither is a consensus "star". Other examples are Ottawa drafting a Karlsson with a 15th pick and Colorado using a 33rd to grab O'Reilly.

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02-10-2013, 08:28 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Parkdale View Post
Yeah, it's difficult to judge a scouting staff without the benefit of time and hindsight. But the kind of sit up and notice picks that other teams pull off seem to be absent in Toronto. Gardiner and Schultz in Anaheim with the 17th and 43rd picks are good examples that you've given. Potential star players nabbed without the benefit of a top 10 pick makes you wonder who are the gifted bird-dogs doing that. Perhaps in time, one will emerge in Toronto, but are noticeably absent from the Leafs roster right now. Gunnerson and Reimer might be our current best and both may in time turn out, but neither is a consensus "star". Other examples are Ottawa drafting a Karlsson with a 15th pick and Colorado using a 33rd to grab O'Reilly.
Others:
Pavel Datsyuk, Det, 1998, 6(171)
Ryan Miller, Buf, 1999, 5(138)
Henrik Zetterberg, Det, 1999, 7(210)
Henrik Lundqvist, NYR, 2000, 7(205)
Kevin Bieksa, Van, 2001, 5(151)
Jonathan Ericsson, Det, 2002, 9(291)
Mark Streit, Mtl, 2004, 7(262)
Patric Hornqvist, Nsh, 2005, 7(230)

To name a few. Either way, nobody is saying Morrison is bad, but maybe there are better to head the dept. given the organization's resources.

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02-10-2013, 08:33 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Mo for where he has picked has made some impressive picks. People forget it takes time for prospects to bear fruit and he has only been doing this since 06. Datsyuk, Zetterberg or Lidstrom only come a long once in a blue moon, and Detroit scout's have been dining out on that one for a decade now. What have they done recently? If it were that easy why haven't other franchise's done the same? But to hold one scout Morrison for not finding similar is laughable, and I am thinking of a specific discussion I had here with the only poster that I have on ignore, a couple of weeks ago when he said it is time we look for another head scout.
I'm pretty critical of Morrison where he's neglected his European eyes. When you look at those earlier drafts, it's obvious that whomever's been getting us Gunnarsson, Komarov, Kulemin, Rask, Holzer, Stralman, Stalberg, etc. that something is working there that we're not taking full advantage of.

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02-10-2013, 08:34 PM
  #80
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How about Burke leaving the kids in the AHL for the proper amount of time? Not rushing them like everyone wanted? Love how no one mentions that anymore.
I know eh?

It's like everything Burke did was just forgotten once he was gone.

Oh Sorry I should clarify. Everything POSITIVE Burke did has been forgotten.

I saw one of the usual guys calling Kessel useless, after his 3pt game last night.

It will never end.

I know I saw somewhere someone said Orr was the worst 1M spent by the Leafs. I bet they were the loudest person at the bar last night when Orr dummied Bourque.

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02-10-2013, 08:36 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
I know eh?

It's like everything Burke did was just forgotten once he was gone.

Oh Sorry I should clarify. Everything POSITIVE Burke did has been forgotten.

I saw one of the usual guys calling Kessel useless, after his 3pt game last night.

It will never end.

I know I saw somewhere someone said Orr was the worst 1M spent by the Leafs. I bet they were the loudest person at the bar last night when Orr dummied Bourque.
I said the day he was fired, that the best of his work, we're yet to see.

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02-10-2013, 08:39 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I'm pretty critical of Morrison where he's neglected his European eyes. When you look at those earlier drafts, it's obvious that whomever's been getting us Gunnarsson, Komarov, Kulemin, Rask, Holzer, Stralman, Stalberg, etc. that something is working there that we're not taking full advantage of.
This. Instead of throwing those guys a bone once in a while, why aren't we utilizing them to the fullest, as it's clear that they can find NHL talent as good as anyone we have.

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02-10-2013, 08:42 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I'm pretty critical of Morrison where he's neglected his European eyes. When you look at those earlier drafts, it's obvious that whomever's been getting us Gunnarsson, Komarov, Kulemin, Rask, Holzer, Stralman, Stalberg, etc. that something is working there that we're not taking full advantage of.
Stralman was before he was in charge, but 06 and 07 were good drafts especially when you consider he had no 1st or 2nd rd pick in 07.

Tlusty
Kulemin
Reimer
Holzer
Stalberg
Komarov
Gunnarson
Frattin
Reimer

That's a very solid record, 08 is well documented, and 09 is starting to pay dividends if we are to remain patient. 2010 we again had no 1st, and had to deal for a 2nd. 2011 will be a good draft, I don't think we will realize this now but I suspect it will be one of our best if we are patient.

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02-10-2013, 08:45 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Others:
Pavel Datsyuk, Det, 1998, 6(171)
Ryan Miller, Buf, 1999, 5(138)
Henrik Zetterberg, Det, 1999, 7(210)
Henrik Lundqvist, NYR, 2000, 7(205)
Kevin Bieksa, Van, 2001, 5(151)
Jonathan Ericsson, Det, 2002, 9(291)
Mark Streit, Mtl, 2004, 7(262)
Patric Hornqvist, Nsh, 2005, 7(230)

To name a few. Either way, nobody is saying Morrison is bad, but maybe there are better to head the dept. given the organization's resources.
Nice way to cherry pick.

Kaberle was a 8th round pick.
Bondra 8th round.
Alfie , Demitra, were late round picks.
Tim Thomas 9th round.

Brett HUll was a 6th round pick.
St. Louis undrafted.
Adam Oates undrafted.

I don't even know what you're trying to prove. But my list is better than yours.

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02-10-2013, 08:47 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Nice way to cherry pick.

Kaberle was a 8th round pick.
Bondra 8th round.
Alfie , Demitra, were late round picks.
Tim Thomas 9th round.

Brett HUll was a 6th round pick.
St. Louis undrafted.
Adam Oates undrafted.

I don't even know what you're trying to prove. But my list is better than yours.
I was simply saying that great talent, and solid NHL talent, isn't strictly in the 1st 3 rounds. Solid scouting can produce not only good talent, but impact talent, if the work is done, the patience is there, and the proper player development is used.

And yes, that's a hell of a list...

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02-10-2013, 08:51 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Nice way to cherry pick.

Kaberle was a 8th round pick.
Bondra 8th round.
Alfie , Demitra, were late round picks.
Tim Thomas 9th round.

Brett HUll was a 6th round pick.
St. Louis undrafted.
Adam Oates undrafted.

I don't even know what you're trying to prove. But my list is better than yours.
Well he wants us to draft more Euro's because he believes in elite hockey players and NA's are not elite enough for him, remember his pimping of Gally and Grigs. This guy is beyond silly.

Cherry picked players on that list that Kulemin, Reimer, and Frattin are not all in the same class or better. Other than once in a lifetime picks Lunqvist, Zetterberg, or Datsyuk.

You tell him Charlio.

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02-10-2013, 09:04 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Stralman was before he was in charge, but 06 and 07 were good drafts especially when you consider he had no 1st or 2nd rd pick in 07.

Tlusty
Kulemin
Reimer
Holzer
Stalberg
Komarov
Gunnarson
Frattin
Reimer

That's a very solid record, 08 is well documented, and 09 is starting to pay dividends if we are to remain patient. 2010 we again had no 1st, and had to deal for a 2nd. 2011 will be a good draft, I don't think we will realize this now but I suspect it will be one of our best if we are patient.
I think Morrison has been doing a competent job, I just think what he's doing is not especially special. Just in our own division, picks outside of the top 10 since 2006:

Boston:

Lucic
Marchand
Subban
Caron
Colborne
Griffith
Camara
Khokhlachev

Buffalo:

Grigorenko
Girgensons
McCabe
Weber
Enroth
Myers
Ennis
Adam
Kassian
McNabb
Foligno
Armia

Montreal:

Pacioretty
McDonagh
Weber
Gallagher
Subban
Tinordi
Beaulieu
Colberg
Thrower

Ottawa:

Karlsson
Silfverberg
Lehner
Condra
Smith
Daugavins
Noesen
Puempel

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02-10-2013, 09:04 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Nice way to cherry pick.

Kaberle was a 8th round pick.
Bondra 8th round.
Alfie , Demitra, were late round picks.
Tim Thomas 9th round.

Brett HUll was a 6th round pick.
St. Louis undrafted.
Adam Oates undrafted.

I don't even know what you're trying to prove. But my list is better than yours.
Also, you're helping me prove my point. Great, in-depth scouting produced those players for their respective organizations. Those undrafted guys, they were noticed by someone, you know?

Like I said above, I like Morrison, but maybe he should be our lead scout for the CHL. He does fine there. We have some pretty great scouts in Europe who get next to no action, and there's no excuse for that, at all. I don't necessarily want a team full of Europeans, as I like a solid mix, but look at some of the great players listed above, and others like Sundin, Alfie, Kovalchuk, Koivu, Selanne, Forsberg... Ya know? I'm just saying, we're absolutely mis-using the assets we have, and there's no good reason for it.

I'm not saying he should be fired... lol

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02-10-2013, 09:11 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Either way, nobody is saying Morrison is bad, but maybe there are better to head the dept. given the organization's resources.
Exactly...while Nonis is being evaluated, look at the whole organization top - bottom for improvements....scouting department is not excluded.

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02-10-2013, 09:13 PM
  #90
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Exactly...while Nonis is being evaluated, look at the whole organization top - bottom for improvements....scouting department is not excluded.
That's the bottom line.
If the organization didn't like what Burke had been doing, and didn't like what he had done, it's safe to say that the whole staff is under watch, and nobody is safe. I don't think they should fire the group, or anything like that, but I have a hard time believing that we couldn't upgrade our scouting staff with the resources we have available to us.

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02-10-2013, 09:17 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
That's the bottom line.
If the organization didn't like what Burke had been doing, and didn't like what he had done, it's safe to say that the whole staff is under watch, and nobody is safe. I don't think they should fire the group, or anything like that, but I have a hard time believing that we couldn't upgrade our scouting staff with the resources we have available to us.
I'm warming to Nonis though....too bad they lost Dudley to Montreal last year.

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02-10-2013, 09:20 PM
  #92
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I'm warming to Nonis though....too bad they lost Dudley to Montreal last year.
Yeah, Dudley is a hell of a talent evaluator. Great scout, and a great consultant. After what has transpired this year, it really makes losing him hurt. He would've been a great candidate to look at for the top position.

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02-10-2013, 09:23 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
That's the bottom line.
If the organization didn't like what Burke had been doing, and didn't like what he had done, it's safe to say that the whole staff is under watch, and nobody is safe. I don't think they should fire the group, or anything like that, but I have a hard time believing that we couldn't upgrade our scouting staff with the resources we have available to us.
Exactly. There's definitely optimizations that can still be happening with the scouting staff, least of which how they allocate picks to which scouts...

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02-10-2013, 09:35 PM
  #94
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Exactly. There's definitely optimizations that can still be happening with the scouting staff, least of which how they allocate picks to which scouts...
It would be interesting to read the scouting reports that Morrison and Bergman made on Karlsson in his draft year. That would be somewhat revealing when judging the quality of the current scouting staff.

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02-10-2013, 09:40 PM
  #95
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Yeah, Dudley is a hell of a talent evaluator. Great scout, and a great consultant. After what has transpired this year, it really makes losing him hurt. He would've been a great candidate to look at for the top position.
I sense that Dudley is comfortable to be a #2 and Montreal's GM had an earlier relationship with him. Still, we have 2 assistant GM's in Loiselle and Poulin....would Dudley have been an upgrade over them and would he have stayed if he had had more authority. Dudley had the reputation and resume of an excellent scout...pro and amateur. Would have liked to have seen the fruits of his work here.

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02-10-2013, 09:43 PM
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I'm warming to Nonis though....too bad they lost Dudley to Montreal last year.
I don't know that BB didn't have the bus tickets ready for Lombo and Connolly when he was fired, but the departure of those two was refereshing and long overdue. That and the things he hasn't done yet make me pretty happy with Nonis start. It's still a pretty small sample of games but it seems like the club may have an identity which I didn't see last season.

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02-10-2013, 09:45 PM
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It's not just drafting the talent .. It's developing the talent too ... Morrison's done a great job finding kids with the right tools and attributes to be successful at the pro level but it's also on the development side where Eakins work shows .. Also comes to show how much better the prospect camps and training camps are

Looks like the coaching staff is giving a ton of insight on these kids about what to work on... Underhill has helped a ton too

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02-10-2013, 09:49 PM
  #98
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It's not just drafting the talent .. It's developing the talent too ... Morrison's done a great job finding kids with the right tools and attributes to be successful at the pro level but it's also on the development side where Eakins work shows .. Also comes to show how much better the prospect camps and training camps are

Looks like the coaching staff is giving a ton of insight on these kids about what to work on... Underhill has helped a ton too
Underhill and Eakins are credits to our organization. Eakins, especially, is key in transforming players from potential, to tangible results.

Underhill is a great skating coach, and her work is far from over. It will be great to see the difference in some of outlr guys next year at camp. The results should be clear there.

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02-10-2013, 10:59 PM
  #99
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Fact is there are rarely elite players outside of the top 10 picks, usually you have to go even lower say top 5, I wouldn't give Pens scouts too much credit for picking Crosby or Malkin, these are no brainers, we got it right with Rielly at 5 last year. When most wanted Grigorenko or Forsberg we went for a kid with character, with a repaired ACL, and only 18 games of exposure last season. Not a slam dunk as some claim it was.

No complaints about the Rielly pick here, but to be fair, he hasn't really distanced himself from those two prospects whom the average Leaf fan would have drafted at 5th overall...and Grigs really does look to have #1 center potential afterall, regardless what Button was sayin. I wonder how much Button singlehandedly lowered Grigorenko's draft position? Not drafting Forsberg made a lot more sense once the JVR trade came to fruition...I wonder how much input Morrison would have made on the Schenn-JVR swap, as they're both barely past the prospect stage of their careers.

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02-10-2013, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
No complaints about the Rielly pick here, but to be fair, he hasn't really distanced himself from those two prospects whom the average Leaf fan would have drafted at 5th overall...and Grigs really does look to have #1 center potential afterall, regardless what Button was sayin. I wonder how much Button singlehandedly lowered Grigorenko's draft position? Not drafting Forsberg made a lot more sense once the JVR trade came to fruition...I wonder how much input Morrison would have made on the Schenn-JVR swap, as they're both barely past the prospect stage of their careers.
I'm really happy with the Rielly pick too, he looks like he has explosive skating and offensive creativity and puckhandling, though a bit of a weak shot. All in all, a dynamic weapon for the future. We still do need him to distance himself from the Grigorenkos and Forsbergs of the world to really justify the 1st overall worthy claims, however, or at least do something spectacular in juniors to keep up with Galchenyuk and Yakupov, who seem to be pulling away with their early starts in the NHL.

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