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The Armchair GM Thread - Part XXXII - Kessel Run Edition

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02-10-2013, 08:56 PM
  #251
YogiCanucks
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I don't want a high profile C prospect. Johansen would skew value too much. I'm fine with someone like Shore + 1st. Need the 1st. That way, they can supplement the position by getting a near roster player _and_ draft another high end prospect C in this draft. Getting both goes a long way in replenishing that position within the pipeline. While getting one better one likely doesn't allow that 1st to come along with it.


After all, a guy like Bjugstad was drafted 19th overall.
That's a very good point actually. My concern is that we wont be able to fit our system with surefire 1st line players (such an Johansen or the Sedins) if we're drafting so late year in, year out. It's too much to rely on gem finds to become NHL superstars (Zetterberg Datsyuk). But as it stands I think you're right we're better off with stand that cupboard up a little more with 2 bluechippers.

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02-10-2013, 09:21 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
If we haven't won a Cup by the time they hit UFA then our best chance to win a Cup would have already come and gone. Signing them long-term to big contracts again just prolongs the inevitable. They aren't playoff players, and I don't expect that's something that will develop now at this stage.

Like Gillis cut ties with Naslund, Ohlund, Mitchell, and Salo when the time came I anticipate the same will be said for the Sedins.
Out of the 4 your mentioned only 1 is a comparable forward. And yes, Naslund was let go when he barely could hit 60 points/year. We can talk when the Sedins have 2 full seasons at around that production. Okay? Okay.

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02-10-2013, 09:25 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I don't want a high profile C prospect. Johansen would skew value too much. I'm fine with someone like Shore + 1st. Need the 1st. That way, they can supplement the position by getting a near roster player _and_ draft another high end prospect C in this draft. Getting both goes a long way in replenishing that position within the pipeline. While getting one better one likely doesn't allow that 1st to come along with it.


After all, a guy like Bjugstad was drafted 19th overall.
Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Let's NOT go out and get a top prospect. A bunch of mediocre prospects will do.

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02-10-2013, 09:29 PM
  #254
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I don't see why the Sedins aren't playoff players. Since last lockout, they have had 1 bad post season performance which came before they were considered elite players. Let's look at Daniel Sedin...

08-09: 10 pts in 10gp
09-10: 14 pts in 12gp
10-11: 20 pts in 25gp
11-12: 2 pts in 2gp

They are essentially PPG players over the past 4 seasons in the playoffs. If we're just talking stats, that's pretty good. Do they elevate their game to another level? No, that's hard to do when your game is based on cerebral hockey. But they do seem to deliver offensively.

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02-10-2013, 09:31 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
I don't see why the Sedins aren't playoff players. Since last lockout, they have had 1 bad post season performance which came before they were considered elite players. Let's look at Daniel Sedin...

08-09: 10 pts in 10gp
09-10: 14 pts in 12gp
10-11: 20 pts in 25gp
11-12: 2 pts in 2gp

They are essentially PPG players over the past 4 seasons in the playoffs. If we're just talking stats, that's pretty good. Do they elevate their game to another level? No, that's hard to do when your game is based on cerebral hockey. But they do seem to deliver offensively.
In 10-11 for example, try looking up Daniel and Henrik's totals in the Chicago, Nashville and Boston series. The SJ series skewed their stats quite a bit. Also take a look at how poorly defensively they played.

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02-10-2013, 09:48 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
In 10-11 for example, try looking up Daniel and Henrik's totals in the Chicago, Nashville and Boston series. The SJ series skewed their stats quite a bit. Also take a look at how poorly defensively they played.
How you defend luongo and his playoffd the use stats to try and discredit the best players in franchise history is beyond me.

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02-10-2013, 09:56 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
In 10-11 for example, try looking up Daniel and Henrik's totals in the Chicago, Nashville and Boston series. The SJ series skewed their stats quite a bit. Also take a look at how poorly defensively they played.
So they weren't overly impressive playing against Keith-Seabrook, Weber-Suter, and Chara-Seidenburg? The Sedins had probably the hardest path possible to the cup in terms of defensive pairings, it's difficult to be PPG players against top pairings like that. Still though, they persevered and managed to produce. And when they weren't producing, at least they were drawing the top pairings freeing guys like Kesler up to play against lesser pairings.

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02-10-2013, 09:58 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
In 10-11 for example, try looking up Daniel and Henrik's totals in the Chicago, Nashville and Boston series. The SJ series skewed their stats quite a bit. Also take a look at how poorly defensively they played.
Did any forward excel in all four rounds Kesler was only good in one round and actually Daniel i believe scored 5 goals in seven games vs Chicago so that is elite. Based on your analysis we came one win from winning the cup without one forward do well offensively.

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02-10-2013, 10:06 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
So they weren't overly impressive playing against Keith-Seabrook, Weber-Suter, and Chara-Seidenburg? The Sedins had probably the hardest path possible to the cup in terms of defensive pairings, it's difficult to be PPG players against top pairings like that. Still though, they persevered and managed to produce. And when they weren't producing, at least they were drawing the top pairings freeing guys like Kesler up to play against lesser pairings.
Excuses, excuses. The Sedins were horrible in those playoffs. They were consistently disappointing offensively (minus the SJ series which skewed their stats) and were shockingly bad defensively.

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02-10-2013, 10:06 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
So they weren't overly impressive playing against Keith-Seabrook, Weber-Suter, and Chara-Seidenburg? The Sedins had probably the hardest path possible to the cup in terms of defensive pairings, it's difficult to be PPG players against top pairings like that. Still though, they persevered and managed to produce. And when they weren't producing, at least they were drawing the top pairings freeing guys like Kesler up to play against lesser pairings.
I hate to go over this again, but this. As for +/-, I remember they were on for quite a few fluky goals from behind the net during that Preds series... let in by Lu, ironically enough. This is not to justify that -10 or whatever it was, but those bounces made it look worse than it really was.

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02-10-2013, 10:09 PM
  #261
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Again Daniel scored 5 goals in 7 games vs. Chicago!!!!!!!!!!!! In what world is that bad. They have always scored vs Chicago. Which is a large part of their playoff history.

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02-10-2013, 10:09 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
So they weren't overly impressive playing against Keith-Seabrook, Weber-Suter, and Chara-Seidenburg? The Sedins had probably the hardest path possible to the cup in terms of defensive pairings, it's difficult to be PPG players against top pairings like that. Still though, they persevered and managed to produce. And when they weren't producing, at least they were drawing the top pairings freeing guys like Kesler up to play against lesser pairings.
True.

This, combined with NHL rule shifts has resulted in the Sedins enduring unprecedented levels of abuse. Think about it, when did the last team with a GM proclaiming he "didn't need any goons", and "we'll take the penalties", make it to the finals? None of those series were sweeps, either.

I think the Sedins have a level of common sense unknown on these boards that will allow them to exit on their own terms. If they win their rings this season, why come back? Modo plays sixty games a year. The Sedins may just retire to Sweden.

Imagine the Sedins retire after hoisting the Cup, that leaves room this summer for some big signings. There will still be a goalie to trade, too, I think. Big off-season.

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02-10-2013, 10:09 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
In 10-11 for example, try looking up Daniel and Henrik's totals in the Chicago, Nashville and Boston series. The SJ series skewed their stats quite a bit. Also take a look at how poorly defensively they played.
Henrik should have sat out once he got injured so we could put [Insert AHL scrub] into the #1 centre role.

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02-10-2013, 10:23 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Excuses, excuses. The Sedins were horrible in those playoffs. They were consistently disappointing offensively (minus the SJ series which skewed their stats) and were shockingly bad defensively.
I'll stick with Daniel again..
vs. CHI: 5g - 2a - 7pts in 7gp
vs. NSH: 1g - 2a - 3pts in 6gp
vs. SJS: 2g - 4a - 6pts in 5gp
vs BOS: 1g - 3a - 4pts in 7gp

So they were very good against Chicago and San Jose, and mediocre against Nashville and Boston. We won against Nashville because others stepped up, but nobody stepped up against Boston. I'm not giving the Sedins a free pass for that series, but over the course of that run they were pretty good. To say they were non existant outside the SJS series is nonsense, we never would have made it by Chicago if it weren't for them.

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02-10-2013, 10:26 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
I'll stick with Daniel again..
vs. CHI: 5g - 2a - 7pts in 7gp
vs. NSH: 1g - 2a - 3pts in 6gp
vs. SJS: 2g - 4a - 6pts in 5gp
vs BOS: 1g - 3a - 4pts in 7gp

So they were very good against Chicago and San Jose, and mediocre against Nashville and Boston. We won against Nashville because others stepped up, but nobody stepped up against Boston. I'm not giving the Sedins a free pass for that series, but over the course of that run they were pretty good. To say they were non existant outside the SJS series is nonsense, we never would have made it by Chicago if it weren't for them.
Daniel is now "they" and speaks for both he and Henrik? Also you're ignoring how pathetic defensively they were. They were on the ice for more goals against than any other Canuck players by a large margin.

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02-10-2013, 10:33 PM
  #266
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Daniel is now "they" and speaks for both he and Henrik? Also you're ignoring how pathetic defensively they were. They were on the ice for more goals against than any other Canuck players by a large margin.
Just picked one of em, I'm on my phone and it's hard to look up stats. Feel free to post up Henrik's if they were significantly worse.

We don't pay the Sedins to be defensive. They are who they are at this point. Lu got blown out in so many games, it doesn't shock me that the Sedins would be on the ice for more goals against in those games since we were behind to begin with. I'd have to look into where they got their minuses though.

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02-10-2013, 10:38 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
Just picked one of em, I'm on my phone and it's hard to look up stats. Feel free to post up Henrik's if they were significantly worse.

We don't pay the Sedins to be defensive. They are who they are at this point. Lu got blown out in so many games, it doesn't shock me that the Sedins would be on the ice for more goals against in those games since we were behind to begin with. I'd have to look into where they got their minuses though.
Here's our "captain's" stats that year:

vs. CHI: 0g - 5a - 5pts in 7gp -4
vs. NSH: 1g - 3a - 4pts in 6gp -4
vs. SJS: 1g - 11a - 12pts in 5gp +4
vs BOS: 1g - 0a - 1pt in 7gp -7

I would say he wasn't good enough against Chicago and Nashville, absolutely dominated San Jose, and was 4th liner-ish against Boston.

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02-10-2013, 10:42 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
Just picked one of em, I'm on my phone and it's hard to look up stats. Feel free to post up Henrik's if they were significantly worse.

We don't pay the Sedins to be defensive. They are who they are at this point. Lu got blown out in so many games, it doesn't shock me that the Sedins would be on the ice for more goals against in those games since we were behind to begin with. I'd have to look into where they got their minuses though.
Wrong we pay the Sedin's to win their matchups.

-14 isn't winning them.

I love the Twins and I'm a Luongo fan.

Do they have to be pitted against eachother all the time?

They were both big reasons why we were in game 7 of the SCF, and we're also big reasons why we lost.

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02-10-2013, 10:43 PM
  #269
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^ Is injury not a factor? The guys who did best in the SCF were our 3rd liners, who happened to be healthy.

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02-10-2013, 10:43 PM
  #270
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Oh good another Sedins discussion.

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02-10-2013, 10:51 PM
  #271
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^ Is injury not a factor? The guys who did best in the SCF were our 3rd liners, who happened to be healthy.
Daniel was healthy and no-showed the SCF. He gets paid $6.1M and is expected to be a leader. Where did he go?

If that was the Sedins at their best, then they're only going to get worse going forward. I see no need to re-sign them at similar or more dollars. I would be open to what timw33 suggested which is bringing them back for 2 years at $4M per, but that's about it.

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02-10-2013, 10:56 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Here's our "captain's" stats that year:

vs. CHI: 0g - 5a - 5pts in 7gp -4
vs. NSH: 1g - 3a - 4pts in 6gp -4
vs. SJS: 1g - 11a - 12pts in 5gp +4
vs BOS: 1g - 0a - 1pt in 7gp -7

I would say he wasn't good enough against Chicago and Nashville, absolutely dominated San Jose, and was 4th liner-ish against Boston.
Here's my take on this whole thing. Alot of the problems we have in the post season can be attributed to the coaching staff. How many times now have we seen teams throw 5 man units ( a lot of them being elite, if they aren't well then the Sedins do fine) against the Sedins? The same thing ends up happening, if we're losing or sometimes even if we aren't, we become very vulnerable to counter attacks. When our checkers go up against other teams units we tend to just contain them...so we don't exactly get the same offence out of those lines.

Start using the Sedins against the other teams top offensive players. Go power on power.

Why do this? Several things will happen:

1) The Sedins get away from defensive pairings and centers who's only real job is to stop them. With the penalties down, it isn't that hard to physically control the Sedins

2) This will force the Sedins to actually play some defence. The other teams top players won't be content containing the Sedins...they will save up energy to score them selves. The Sedins will get more opportunities in open ice on counter attacks as well which will only help us out. If they are cycling downlow they neutralize and frustrate the other teams top players

3) Opens up the second line/ third line to start playing offensively. Against most teams in the league our secondary scoring actually can hold their own defensively as well so this is low risk

I'm not sure if many people noticed this but after moving Burrows up with the Sedins Van has stopped matching the 3rd line with other teams top units. The Sedin line has started going up against the top units ( Parise/Koivu and Iginla/Tanguay) and a few things have happened. The top line controls the play down low thus hurting their top players and our secondary scoring can actually start playing offensively. We looked horrid offensively with Higgins/Burrows/Hansen playing shutdown. It simply puts too much pressure on the top line to produce

Hopefully AV continues to use this strategy even when Kesler returns

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02-10-2013, 10:58 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Daniel was healthy and no-showed the SCF. He gets paid $6.1M and is expected to be a leader. Where did he go?

If that was the Sedins at their best, then they're only going to get worse going forward. I see no need to re-sign them at similar or more dollars. I would be open to what timw33 suggested which is bringing them back for 2 years at $4M per, but that's about it.
I'm pretty sure that AV admitted that Daniel was rushed back into the lineup for game 4, if I'm not mistaken.

And the Sedins are the faces of Vancouver more than Linden was. 4M per is an insult and you should go feel badly about yourself right now.

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02-10-2013, 10:59 PM
  #274
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So what's the deal with O'reilly?

Why we no offer sheet him?

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02-10-2013, 11:00 PM
  #275
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I'm pretty sure that AV admitted that Daniel was rushed back into the lineup for game 4, if I'm not mistaken.

And the Sedins are the faces of Vancouver more than Linden was. 4M per is an insult and you should go feel badly about yourself right now.
I strongly disagree with that. Linden was the heart and soul of this team. You never see the Sedins play with the kind of clutch and passion that Linden did, especially in the playoffs.

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