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Old
02-10-2013, 09:59 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
It doesn't matter in the slightest to me that Petrecki was not taken. What matters is that DW showed a willingness to give up a 1st round pick (again) for no immediate gain when there seems to be at least a decent amount of indication that Petrecki is finally starting to turn into a bit of the player some hoped he might have been.
What else was DW supposed to do? Keep him as the 8th/9th defenseman in San Jose, further hurting is development by keeping him in the press-box?

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02-10-2013, 10:05 PM
  #177
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What else was DW supposed to do? Keep him as the 8th/9th defenseman in San Jose, further hurting is development by keeping him in the press-box?
In the immediate, there is probably not any better options for DW. The underlying issue is that this pick was known to be a project and the development failed. The development side of things has failed more than it has worked, imo. That ought to be a good enough indicator for change but there doesn't seem to be much desire on DW's part to make any improvements in that aspect.

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02-10-2013, 10:51 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
In the immediate, there is probably not any better options for DW. The underlying issue is that this pick was known to be a project and the development failed. The development side of things has failed more than it has worked, imo. That ought to be a good enough indicator for change but there doesn't seem to be much desire on DW's part to make any improvements in that aspect.
He's only 23, there's still time for him to develop and he was definitely getting better this year. On the other hand, I do agree that the development system needs to be improved in Worcester.

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02-10-2013, 11:19 PM
  #179
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He's only 23, there's still time for him to develop and he was definitely getting better this year. On the other hand, I do agree that the development system needs to be improved in Worcester.
Well the Worcester Sharks did turn Demers and Braun, both 7th round picks, into NHL defensemen, so that counts for something right?

Now as to forwards on the other hand

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02-10-2013, 11:28 PM
  #180
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Vaasa,

I'm sorry dude. Your opinion on 1st round draft picks relies on hindsight, and it sucks.

The only legit complaint we probably would have is drafting Setoguchi over Kopitar, but even then it still seemed like a promising pick. Speedy right handed canadian goal scoring kid who delivers hard checks. Sounds like a good fit for Thornton, right? He did score 30 goals his first year here, but then we ran into his professionalism issues (parties too much, disinterested in improving his game, getting his ass kicked publicly, etc).

We're actually quite fortunate that we were able to trade him for what got us Brent Burns (who is a fantastic player ON AND OFF the ice).

So, while there is certainly one way to look at things. Its just not how this organization works. Can it be better? Sure, but you guys need to remember that players are responsible for what they bring to the table, too. If Seto actually cared about being a hockey player, we probably wouldn't need to add Coyle to get the trade done. The same can be said about other players who we drafted and failed to make it to the show or live up to their projections.

Its wishful thinking, but its not the reality.

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02-10-2013, 11:50 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
Well the Worcester Sharks did turn Demers and Braun, both 7th round picks, into NHL defensemen, so that counts for something right?

Now as to forwards on the other hand
Worcester has pulled out a few players, no doubt. But there has been no accountability for the picks that have expectations and have failed. Those mid to late first rounders should turn into something meaningful at least one time in the last ten years. And that's not all on Worcester. That is partially on the team's scouting department as well. I just haven't seen any real push to be better in this regard.

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02-10-2013, 11:53 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by RainbowDash View Post
Vaasa,

I'm sorry dude. Your opinion on 1st round draft picks relies on hindsight, and it sucks.

The only legit complaint we probably would have is drafting Setoguchi over Kopitar, but even then it still seemed like a promising pick. Speedy right handed canadian goal scoring kid who delivers hard checks. Sounds like a good fit for Thornton, right? He did score 30 goals his first year here, but then we ran into his professionalism issues (parties too much, disinterested in improving his game, getting his ass kicked publicly, etc).

We're actually quite fortunate that we were able to trade him for what got us Brent Burns (who is a fantastic player ON AND OFF the ice).

So, while there is certainly one way to look at things. Its just not how this organization works. Can it be better? Sure, but you guys need to remember that players are responsible for what they bring to the table, too. If Seto actually cared about being a hockey player, we probably wouldn't need to add Coyle to get the trade done. The same can be said about other players who we drafted and failed to make it to the show or live up to their projections.

Its wishful thinking, but its not the reality.
They didn't pick Setoguchi based on Thornton. That was prior to his acquisition. The team still needed that playmaking type forward at that point as they were going into the season with Marleau and Goc/McCauley as their top two centers.

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02-11-2013, 12:01 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by RexFeral View Post
Revisions in bold.
It was fine the way it was. He is in the upper half of gm's, there is not much argument of that, and that would mean 'most'. Simple math.

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02-11-2013, 12:10 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
They didn't pick Setoguchi based on Thornton. That was prior to his acquisition. The team still needed that playmaking type forward at that point as they were going into the season with Marleau and Goc/McCauley as their top two centers.
Didn't say they picked Seto based on Thornton. I was commenting that Seto had the playmaker he needed to score 30+ goals yearly, and he didn't make it with us.

Even when projected first liners and guys who have all the tools to be amazing 1st round pick ends up not living up to the expectations. This is on the player, not the organization.

It seems more obvious to me that we should be drafting out of the 1st round based on the interview process at the combine. We need to be drafting guys based on how motivated to adjust their game if needed to be a better player.

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02-11-2013, 12:51 AM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainbowDash View Post
Vaasa,

I'm sorry dude. Your opinion on 1st round draft picks relies on hindsight, and it sucks.

The only legit complaint we probably would have is drafting Setoguchi over Kopitar, but even then it still seemed like a promising pick. Speedy right handed canadian goal scoring kid who delivers hard checks. Sounds like a good fit for Thornton, right? He did score 30 goals his first year here, but then we ran into his professionalism issues (parties too much, disinterested in improving his game, getting his ass kicked publicly, etc).

We're actually quite fortunate that we were able to trade him for what got us Brent Burns (who is a fantastic player ON AND OFF the ice).

So, while there is certainly one way to look at things. Its just not how this organization works. Can it be better? Sure, but you guys need to remember that players are responsible for what they bring to the table, too. If Seto actually cared about being a hockey player, we probably wouldn't need to add Coyle to get the trade done. The same can be said about other players who we drafted and failed to make it to the show or live up to their projections.

Its wishful thinking, but its not the reality.
Sorry, what happened here?

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02-11-2013, 12:51 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by RainbowDash View Post
Didn't say they picked Seto based on Thornton. I was commenting that Seto had the playmaker he needed to score 30+ goals yearly, and he didn't make it with us.

Even when projected first liners and guys who have all the tools to be amazing 1st round pick ends up not living up to the expectations. This is on the player, not the organization.

It seems more obvious to me that we should be drafting out of the 1st round based on the interview process at the combine. We need to be drafting guys based on how motivated to adjust their game if needed to be a better player.
You implied it is when you asked if he's a good fit for Thornton. There's simply no absolving the organization for a player who has all the tools but doesn't make it due to their mentality. It is up to the organization to put together an environment to push for maturity and professionalism. And if the player gets that and still can't put it together, it's on the organization for not figuring that out before drafting him. Those types of issues aren't difficult to find out when you scout these players. It's just a question of whether you think you can actually handle those issues. This team has had more than one issue in that regard and that's also something that needs to be changed.

Plus, this particular pick showed a bit of arrogance on the organization's part. Both in terms of dealing with Setoguchi's attitude and the scouting department's belief of what they see in players.

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02-11-2013, 12:58 AM
  #187
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To be fair PF no one could have known Seto wouldve turned into such a woman crazy machine fueled by alcohol and fun.

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02-11-2013, 01:08 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by StalockSuperfan View Post
Sorry, what happened here?
Was hitting on some dude's girlfriend and making inappropriate advances at a bar. Pissed off boyfriend kicks the **** out of him. Front office got wind of it, didn't like it.

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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
You implied it is when you asked if he's a good fit for Thornton. There's simply no absolving the organization for a player who has all the tools but doesn't make it due to their mentality. It is up to the organization to put together an environment to push for maturity and professionalism. And if the player gets that and still can't put it together, it's on the organization for not figuring that out before drafting him. Those types of issues aren't difficult to find out when you scout these players. It's just a question of whether you think you can actually handle those issues. This team has had more than one issue in that regard and that's also something that needs to be changed.

Plus, this particular pick showed a bit of arrogance on the organization's part. Both in terms of dealing with Setoguchi's attitude and the scouting department's belief of what they see in players.
Wasn't implying it, but I can see the confusion.

There certainly is some absolving for the organization in Seto's situation.

Do you really think the Sharks don't have a professional environment? The organization isn't going to babysit you outside of the workplace. Even Todd was fed up with him. "We tried hugging him, we tried kicking him". The writing was certainly on the wall that his ass was going to be shipped out of here on the best package we can find.

These issues with player mentality isn't always easy to detect, either. I don't recall any organization having permission to stalk junior players personal lives or basing their choices based on rumors.

The one adjustment this organization needs to make is having someone sit down at the interview process who scrutinizes and figures out prospects at the combine.

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02-11-2013, 01:13 AM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
To be fair PF no one could have known Seto wouldve turned into such a woman crazy machine fueled by alcohol and fun.
I never saw it coming.

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Originally Posted by RainbowDash View Post
Wasn't implying it, but I can see the confusion.

There certainly is some absolving for the organization in Seto's situation.

Do you really think the Sharks don't have a professional environment? The organization isn't going to babysit you outside of here. Even Todd was fed up with him. "We tried hugging him, we tried kicking him". The writing was certainly on the wall that his ass was going to be shipped out of here on the best package we can find.

These issues with player mentality isn't always easy to detect, either. I don't recall any organization having permission to stalk junior players personal lives or basing their choices based on rumors.

The one adjustment this organization needs to make is having someone sit down at the interview process who scrutinizes and figures out prospects at the combine.
I think they have an environment that gives off that impression to outsiders but I don't believe that they really have the environment needed to handle these types of issues. There is a noticeable lack of accountability at most levels. And they weren't really going to do anything about Setoguchi either until the trade popped up. I think a lot of players do have a sense of entitlement and Thornton is a little more outward with that vibe than others. The other guys on the team are only going to take his lead.

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02-11-2013, 01:18 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Worcester has pulled out a few players, no doubt. But there has been no accountability for the picks that have expectations and have failed. Those mid to late first rounders should turn into something meaningful at least one time in the last ten years. And that's not all on Worcester. That is partially on the team's scouting department as well. I just haven't seen any real push to be better in this regard.
While I can agree with this, I would say that players like Petrecki simply take longer to develop. How long did Murray, Clowe, and Ehrhoff take before they were NHL-ready? In today's league, with FA at 27, that is a luxury that few can afford. And the organization has definitely been doing a better job churning out prospects at a fast rate. However, we have to acknowledge that some players like Petrecki, Mclaren, etc. have longer time-frames...and the mistake was either drafting them in the first place (with the assumption that they wouldn't need so long to develop) or the misjudgement that the team could wait for the player.

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02-11-2013, 01:20 AM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainbowDash View Post
Was hitting on some dude's girlfriend and making inappropriate advances at a bar. Pissed off boyfriend kicks the **** out of him. Front office got wind of it, didn't like it.



Wasn't implying it, but I can see the confusion.

There certainly is some absolving for the organization in Seto's situation.

Do you really think the Sharks don't have a professional environment? The organization isn't going to babysit you outside of the workplace. Even Todd was fed up with him. "We tried hugging him, we tried kicking him". The writing was certainly on the wall that his ass was going to be shipped out of here on the best package we can find.

These issues with player mentality isn't always easy to detect, either. I don't recall any organization having permission to stalk junior players personal lives or basing their choices based on rumors.

The one adjustment this organization needs to make is having someone sit down at the interview process who scrutinizes and figures out prospects at the combine.
I've heard this being repeated again and again. Yet DW signed Setoguchi to an extension just days before he traded him....and DW acknowledged that the only reason he traded Setoguchi was because Brent Burns was the return.

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02-11-2013, 01:32 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
It was Burke himself for the criticism on Kopitar.
True.

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Sry10 and others,
The coulda, shoulda, woulda's are supplementary to the net picking of the Sharks. It isn't one particular player, it is the net effect of their drafting in that part of the draft, the late first/early second round. The examples of specific players are a counterpoint to Sry10 because it isn't the average player at that part of the draft, it is the constant squandering of chances on the exceptional player at that part of the draft, guys who would be top 6 or middle pairing guys.
At the same time, they've also netted numerous other players like that from rounds 3-7.

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They are not identifying those exceptions at all. The commonality for those exceptions leaguewide is generally lack of size while the Sharks consistently choose not to lose out on size.
This is true. San Jose definitely has a bias towards size.

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Not having guys who can challenge for the 6th forward or 3rd line center spot in the system has a trickle down effect. It gives those players like Clowe, Handzus, etc. a false sense of security taking away a pressure to perform NOW. It lends to a feeling of an aristocracy rather than a meritocracy on the team.
Oh, spare me the elementary pyschological analysis. What proof do you have of this? This is the NHL, best of the best. If a player does not perform, he isn't going to be able to hold down a job.

DW has more than just his farm system...he can trade players, sign for players, etc. He can choose not to sign players. A much bigger pressure for Clowe or Handzus would be their next contract, not that their spot may be lost to a player from the farm. That is the "pressure to perform" now.

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02-11-2013, 02:29 AM
  #193
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Oh, spare me the elementary pyschological analysis. What proof do you have of this? This is the NHL, best of the best. If a player does not perform, he isn't going to be able to hold down a job.

DW has more than just his farm system...he can trade players, sign for players, etc. He can choose not to sign players. A much bigger pressure for Clowe or Handzus would be their next contract, not that their spot may be lost to a player from the farm. That is the "pressure to perform" now.
It isn't an on/off of perform or not. It is an issue of how close a player comes to performing optimally.

It has to do with reinforcement. The next contract is not as immediate as place in the lineup. Both are pressures. But, in terms of best responses, the more immediate reinforcement is the stronger tool.

I grant that DW can do trades, but they are even less immediate and the players know he needs a willing trade partner. Not signing someone is even more nebulous as it rarely happens; it is a last resort. The org/DW may be looking upon it as wasting assets.

On the 3 to 7 issue, their performance is falling off. In part, that may be a lack of picks. Another Vaasa issue.

The other note is that trade activity has been creeping up leaguewide since before the previous lockout, around 99/00. There is no increase in cup winners since that time. The same odds for winning a cup. What we do see is a much faster turnover of winners. Fewer dynasty type teams.

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02-11-2013, 08:24 AM
  #194
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While I can agree with this, I would say that players like Petrecki simply take longer to develop. How long did Murray, Clowe, and Ehrhoff take before they were NHL-ready? In today's league, with FA at 27, that is a luxury that few can afford. And the organization has definitely been doing a better job churning out prospects at a fast rate. However, we have to acknowledge that some players like Petrecki, Mclaren, etc. have longer time-frames...and the mistake was either drafting them in the first place (with the assumption that they wouldn't need so long to develop) or the misjudgement that the team could wait for the player.
Murray, Clowe, and Ehrhoff were 8th, 6th, and 4th round selections respectively. They had no expectations. The thought process should be if the team is able to pull out solid players consistently enough to not call it luck in the later rounds, the formula should be able to work in the first round and make the pick better on the whole of it. They are whiffing every time in the mid-to-late first area. If you call the late round picks something other than pure luck, there has to be some accountability for the first round failures and Burke has one success in the last fifteen years of drafting and that was Scott Hannan out of ten tries from mid-to-late first rounders.

I can understand a longer time to develop for some players. I can't understand the entirety of how the organization handles these selections. The organization obviously doesn't care about their results from this to do anything about it. I don't see any desire to improve this aspect nor hold anyone accountable for it. And that is exactly the attitude that the players take on in one form or another and for the most part, the organization enables that.

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02-11-2013, 08:31 AM
  #195
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I couldn't find any mock drafts going back far enough to make any sort of investigation worthwhile. So unless someone knows of any that idea seems to be dead.

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02-11-2013, 08:53 AM
  #196
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I understand the need to bag on the organization for this and that. Welcome to professional sports. I prefer to stay in the now and not dwell on what player could have been.
These people have forgotten more than we will ever know. Our job is to sit here at the computer or tv and whine and whine about this and that.
I guess it used to be the guy in the bar yelling at the tv. Now we write it down on these boards. Have at it.

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02-11-2013, 09:05 AM
  #197
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It was fine the way it was. He is in the upper half of gm's, there is not much argument of that, and that would mean 'most'. Simple math.
Overall, maybe. Drafting, no.

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02-11-2013, 09:46 AM
  #198
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Overall, maybe. Drafting, no.
Drafting, right now, absolutely yes. How many teams are pulling guys like Pavelski, Clowe, Murray, Demers, Braun, etc out of the later rounds? And even if you want to talk early picks we recently made what seem like great picks in Coyle and Hertl, and in previous years have grabbed Couture, Vlasic, etc.

I am positive if many of the teams had the opportunity to steal the Sharks drafting staff they would take it. Again, that has not always been the case, but they have steadily improved over the years to the point that now they are making very good decisions. You need to look at what they are doing now, not what they did 5+ years ago.

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02-11-2013, 10:04 AM
  #199
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Drafting, right now, absolutely yes. How many teams are pulling guys like Pavelski, Clowe, Murray, Demers, Braun, etc out of the later rounds? And even if you want to talk early picks we recently made what seem like great picks in Coyle and Hertl, and in previous years have grabbed Couture, Vlasic, etc.

I am positive if many of the teams had the opportunity to steal the Sharks drafting staff they would take it. Again, that has not always been the case, but they have steadily improved over the years to the point that now they are making very good decisions. You need to look at what they are doing now, not what they did 5+ years ago.
I'm gonna expand on this a bit because even 5 years ago they aren't nearly as bad as people think...for all of the whining about the Sharks first round picks under DW, two have busted in Wishart and Kaspar (and now everyone is complaining that DW doesn't go for the 'Kaspars'). Seto, Couture, Michalek all were (are) top 6 forwards. Bernier, at worst, was a #7 in SJ.

Petrecki can still turn into an everyday NHLer. Coyle still looks to be a good top 6 forward and it's way too early to san anything about Hertl.

People can look back in hindsight about who the org "should have" drafted but considering where they were drafting and the players they did pick, they are much better then people are giving them credit for.

I read somewhere that the chances of a 1st round pick turning into a top 6/top 4 is somewhere around 45% and that number drops considerably outside the top 10, more after 15, etc.

DW and staff aren't perfect but this orgs drafting and developing are being hugely underrated around here.

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02-11-2013, 10:59 AM
  #200
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I couldn't find any mock drafts going back far enough to make any sort of investigation worthwhile. So unless someone knows of any that idea seems to be dead.
FWIW, here is a thread of a HF fan voted mock draft. (again, FWIW)

Had Kopitar at 10th and Seto at 14th

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...hlight=hensick

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