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Brooks: NHL & NHLPA to meet on realignment

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Old
02-10-2013, 06:25 PM
  #51
HugoSimon
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
I think you have that backwards. The League voted to let too many ETZ teams in and thus not allowing room for Detroit and Columbus to be put in the East.
Ding ding, ottawa, and the south totally screwed things up. It put an extra 4 teams(5 plus nashville) in the east that really made a natural inbalance that much worst.


Anyhow my answer to the whole deal, is put 7 and 7 in the west, and give them 8 play off spots.

If any eastern team complains let them go in the west and give a willing team a chance to go in the east.

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02-10-2013, 06:40 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
I agree that the East teams should be willing take a little more time/money to travel like the West teams do so it's more equal (then again, I'm one of those nuts who think the playoffs should be league rankings, not conference. That means of course a lot of transcontental playoffs, but both sides should be willing share the costs IMO)
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
I don't think the "most hated rival" of any team will change regardless of what format is used. That's why I prefer the current format. It allows the stronger playoff teams (1 and 2 seeds) to play the bubble teams that just squeaked into the playoffs.



I get what you're saying, but it can't be all about fairness. I'm not sure it's good for the NHL if everybody has to share the misery.

I think the cost and travel aspect, when you're playing for the championship itself should become the least of everyone's concerns. It really stacks the deck against the Western Conf teams as well.


Here's the thing. Why is that the paramount consideration? Are we not talking about the ultimate culmination to a grueling season and then grueling playoff rounds? It should be mainly about two things:

*Rewarding the teams with the best records over the course of a full season (to actually put some meaning back into every game played)
*Keeping as level a playing field as possible, absent the luck of the draw based on the playoff seedings

This would mean a league-wide ranking of teams to seed them for the playoffs, absent of other alignment issues. (more on that later)

You can add increasing fan interest because it makes it possible to have Boston face Philly in a Cup final, for example.... in other words, you don't really know how it's going to work out if you re-seed, so anything is possible. This would also balances out the inequity you see in conferences from time to time, where a team that's really just not very good can get an easier schedule because the other conference was far tougher that year. Those teams kill other during their playoffs and limp in to face a team that probably couldn't have gotten as far had they been on the other side.


This puts the objective on producing the best possible competition with each advancing round. As fans, we should prefer this to results produced by the various alignments and tinkering with schedules and time zones when you weigh other factors far too heavily in setting things up in the first place.

The question then remains of how you set up the regular season schedules at all. Heck, even dividing the league in half but having a schedule that tries to get as close to balancing things out as possible (where you can give some consideration to the travel concerns of the teams who would be the most affected by it).

Finally, having the teams share travel costs also evens things out. The NHL wants a national footprint. They want teams in every corner. They want the benefits of being a national entity. Fine. But let's let everyone share in the misery of that, in addition to the financial benefits.

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02-10-2013, 06:57 PM
  #53
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Why can't it just be automatically programmed in that part of the Playoff seeding relates to Time Zone. The Top seed plays the lowest Playoff seed in its Conference which is no more than 1 Time Zone away. Then the 2nd seed gets the next lowest seed that's not more than 1 TZ away. Ultimately some team will get a distant matchup, but that'll be part of the price of not getting a higher seed.

I sympathize with Detroit and Columbus, but don't agree that the whole League should be restructured so that those teams don't have to play PTZ teams in the Playoffs.

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02-10-2013, 07:10 PM
  #54
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If they're not moving forward with the 4 conference set up just let the BOG vote on which team moves to the East (SE Division).

Once the worst kept secret - expansion to 32 comes to fruition the 4 conference (or 8 division) format can be revisited.

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02-10-2013, 08:18 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Well, just to satisfy those Canadian networks, maybe the League really should go with 8 4-team Divisions:
Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg
Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City
*
*
*
*
*
*
Win the division to make the playoffs? I like it.

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02-10-2013, 08:46 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Mightygoose View Post
If the league does go the 8 division route, that's exactly how I see it.
Why am I not surprised that people actually think that's a good idea. Well, whatever.

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02-10-2013, 08:52 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Why am I not surprised that people actually think that's a good idea. Well, whatever.
Why isn't it?

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02-10-2013, 09:20 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Why isn't it?
For one, the Western Division would have 3 Time Zones, something of which I've heard that Winnipeg would prefer not to be part of (possibly also a preference of Vancouver, I don't know).
Secondly, it tosses Buffalo away from what it sees as it's main rival (even if Toronto doesn't feel the same). And for your benefit, if Toronto or Hamilton (especially Hamilton) ever gets another team in the area, then that too is a logical rival for Buffalo.
Thirdly, it's not truly a Canadian vs US separate fanbase thing as some of you make it out to be. Some of these border cities and their fans actually enjoy the across the border rivalry and think that it's cool competing with Canadian teams like Montreal and Toronto (the same would likely be true in Seattle with Vancouver, assuming Seattle also gets a team).
And related the above... That's Buffalo, Seattle, (Detroit would prefer Toronto over Chicago), and Boston which would all be happy to be in Divisions with Canadian teams.


Last edited by MoreOrr: 02-10-2013 at 09:26 PM.
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02-10-2013, 09:30 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
For one, the Western Division would have 3 Time Zones, something of which I've heard that Winnipeg would prefer not to be part of (possibly also a preference of Vancouver, I don't know).
Secondly, it tosses Buffalo away from what it sees as it's main rival (even if Toronto doesn't feel the same). And for your benefit, if Toronto or Hamilton (especially Hamilton) ever gets another team in the area, then that too is a logical rival for Buffalo.
Thirdly, it's not truly a Canadian vs US separate fanbase thing as some of you make it out to be. Some of these border cities and their fans actually enjoy the across the border rivalry and think that it's cool competing with Canadian teams like Montreal and Toronto (the same would likely be true in Seattle with Vancouver, assuming Seattle also gets a team).
And related the above... That's Buffalo, Seattle, (Detroit would prefer Toronto over Chicago), and Boston which would all be happy to be in Divisions with Canadian teams.
Alright what you say makes sense, but I think the other way would work as well. New rivalries would develop and just because a team is out of your division it doesn't mean you will never play them. Infact less meetings would probably mean greater interest in the matchup.

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02-10-2013, 09:40 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Alright what you say makes sense, but I think the other way would work as well. New rivalries would develop and just because a team is out of your division it doesn't mean you will never play them. Infact less meetings would probably mean greater interest in the matchup.
I`m with you on this but jamming all the canadian teams in one division is horrid, for that.


I think ideally canadian teams should be spread out as possible.

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02-10-2013, 09:40 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Alright what you say makes sense, but I think the other way would work as well. New rivalries would develop and just because a team is out of your division it doesn't mean you will never play them. Infact less meetings would probably mean greater interest in the matchup.
You're kidding yourself if you really think that's true, or it's just a cop out argument.

Those rivalry matchups which would exist even without being in the same Division are the all-Canadian ones. The other cross border matchups should just simply be fostered, so that it doesn't actually just become a Canadian - US separate fanbase thing. Imagine if that idea grew bigger, the League would be hating, even more than it already does, all-Canadian Finals (or all-US Finals hated in Canada) because the fans on both sides of the border would care even less about those teams on the other side.

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02-10-2013, 09:49 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
You're kidding yourself if you really think that's true, or it's just a cop out argument.

Those rivalry matchups which would exist even without being in the same Division are the all-Canadian ones. The other cross border matchups should just simply be fostered, so that it doesn't actually just become a Canadian - US separate fanbase thing. Imagine if that idea grew bigger, the League would be hating, even more than it already does, all-Canadian Finals (or all-US Finals hated in Canada) because the fans on both sides of the border would care even less about those teams on the other side.
Let me state for the record, obviously being declared the Stanley Cup champion is the pinnacle of success.

MLS does have a tournament that is run during the season to determine the Canadian champion. I think it would be cool if the NHL did something similar and declared a U S champion team as well as a Canadian champion team.

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02-10-2013, 09:56 PM
  #63
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Fugu may scorn me, but I'll take this opportunity, related to the separation of the Canadian teams, to post another friggin 4-Division alignment idea:

The Eastern Divisions


- Philadelphia stays with the NYC area teams.
- Boston and Montreal stay together; Montreal obviously gets QC, and Ottawa gets its nearest rival, Montreal.
- Toronto has a hissy fit, but is still with Buffalo, gets Detroit and Chicago back, plus Winnipeg.
- Minnesota and Winnipeg are probably both happy.
- Chicago gets to keep Detroit.
- Columbus gets both Detroit and Pittsburgh.
- Pittsburgh isn't happy, but like Toronto they really don't have a whole lot to complain about being in a Division with Columbus, Detroit, Buffalo, Chicago, and Toronto... Come on!
- Dallas is likely much happier than it is now.
- The Florida teams won't complain about the idea of being in a Division with the Canadian teams, nor vice versa.

Washington is still unhappy.
St Louis is unhappy.
But those 3 CTZ teams, though they don't strengthen the Southeast group much, they also don't make it weaker.

ADD IN: Division names:
Great Lakes
Northeast
South Central


Last edited by MoreOrr: 02-10-2013 at 10:23 PM.
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02-10-2013, 10:13 PM
  #64
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i am in the complete minority amongst my winnipeg brethren, but i really hope that the jets are part of a division with other canadian teams.....we are the ugly stepchild in the media already....the amount of national attention we get would go to zero if we were the only canadian team alone without any others.

if we are in an american division i at least hope that the playoff structure is top 8 of 2 conferences and not the 4 conference thing that was proposed.....we see so many games of other canadian teams on tv, it would be nice if they had an impact on us at least.....this year is an example....all the oilers, flames, canucks games are meaningless, yet we see at least one of those teams every second day.

being in with cities where the fans cant find us on a map, or where we would never see our opponents play on tv (st. louis, nashville, dallas, columbus), or where hockey s an afterthought would suck...tough to form a real rivalry with any of those cities.....calgary edmonton etc would have an instant rivalry....there were thousands of winnipeggers in the saddledome last season, and the same number of oiler fans in winnipeg.....it was great...that wont happen with american cities.

i also hope they go a more balanced schedule...at least a home and away with every team every year.

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02-10-2013, 10:18 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Fugu may scorn me, but I'll take this opportunity, related to the separation of the Canadian teams, to post another friggin 4-Division alignment idea:

The Eastern Divisions


- Philadelphia stays with the NYC area teams.
- Boston and Montreal stay together; Montreal obviously gets QC, and Ottawa gets its nearest rival, Montreal.
- Toronto has a hissy fit, but is still with Buffalo, gets Detroit and Chicago back, plus Winnipeg.
- Minnesota and Winnipeg are probably both happy.
- Chicago gets to keep Detroit.
- Columbus gets both Detroit and Pittsburgh.
- Pittsburgh isn't happy, but like Toronto they really don't have a whole lot to complain about being in a Division with Columbus, Detroit, Buffalo, Chicago, and Toronto... Come on!
- Dallas is likely much happier than it is now.
- The Florida teams won't complain about the idea of being in a Division with the Canadian teams, nor vice versa.

Washington is still unhappy.
St Louis is unhappy.
But those 3 CTZ teams, though they don't strengthen the Southeast group much, they also don't make it weaker.
Honestly the worst idea Ive ever seen on here

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02-10-2013, 10:25 PM
  #66
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i am in the complete minority amongst my winnipeg brethren, but i really hope that the jets are part of a division with other canadian teams.....we are the ugly stepchild in the media already....the amount of national attention we get would go to zero if we were the only canadian team alone without any others.

if we are in an american division i at least hope that the playoff structure is top 8 of 2 conferences and not the 4 conference thing that was proposed.....we see so many games of other canadian teams on tv, it would be nice if they had an impact on us at least.....this year is an example....all the oilers, flames, canucks games are meaningless, yet we see at least one of those teams every second day.

being in with cities where the fans cant find us on a map, or where we would never see our opponents play on tv (st. louis, nashville, dallas, columbus), or where hockey s an afterthought would suck...tough to form a real rivalry with any of those cities.....calgary edmonton etc would have an instant rivalry....there were thousands of winnipeggers in the saddledome last season, and the same number of oiler fans in winnipeg.....it was great...that wont happen with american cities.

i also hope they go a more balanced schedule...at least a home and away with every team every year.
I enjoy the Leaf, Winnipeg games, mostly because of the great atmosphere the crowd there brings. It was great to see such an exuberant home team crowd, yet there were still plenty of Leaf jerseys in the arena. Who wouldn't want to be in a division with Winnipeg?

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02-10-2013, 10:56 PM
  #67
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Florida and Tampa never met in the playoffs once. With the divisional playoff, there would be higher chance that they would meet. When they finally meet in the playoffs, the fans in Florida would watch that series with interests and may wins them over to hockey. A few years of them meeting in the playoffs would breed contempt and fans will love it and become a die-hard hockey fan because of it. I believe that it will take a meeting of those state for the rivalry to grow. A playoff series against Flyers, or any of Canadian team will not grow unlike the Florida teams meeting.

I believe in regional match-up will help to grow the game of hockey rather than the national-wide series so that is why I favor the divisional playoff format for this reason alone if they want to grow the game.

Just take a look at Edmonton/Dallas or Detroit/Colorado series that never has grown to a full-blown rivalry despite meeting a few years in a row. Today in regular season meeting, it lacked intensity rivals unlike the old time series when it happened. That is my argument that the conference based playoff is not the way to go so I hope that the league will do the right thing, bring back the divisional playoff system.

We can always change back to conference playoffs after a while when fans get tired of it of divisional playoffs. I doubt that the fans will ever get tired of divisional playoff format because that is what the game of hockey is today because of what happened in 80's and early 90's.

I remember, I hated the Oilers/Flames beating up the Canucks even they sucked for so long but the rivalry is there and even I feel good of seeing the Canucks beating up the Oilers/Flames in today's game because of what happened in 80's and it made me a hockey fan due to the rivalry.

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02-10-2013, 10:57 PM
  #68
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I enjoy the Leaf, Winnipeg games, mostly because of the great atmosphere the crowd there brings. It was great to see such an exuberant home team crowd, yet there were still plenty of Leaf jerseys in the arena. Who wouldn't want to be in a division with Winnipeg?
Unless there is expansion into western cities, ie. Seattle/Houston for example, and the Coyotes remaining in Glendale, there are going to be ETZ teams that end up in a division with CTZ teams. Just the reality of the demographics of the league.

If you go on the basis that the Coyotes either remain where they are or get moved to Seattle, then a 4 division breakdown should be:

I'd make the West 2 Seven team divisions. Any Eastern team that complains, can volunteer to join the Central division if they wish.

Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, San Jose, Los Angeles, Anaheim, Coyotes (Sea/Phx)
Colorado, Winnipeg, Dallas, St. Louis, Chicago, Minnesota, Nashville

Montreal, Toronto, Detroit, Ottawa, Buffalo, Boston, Columbus, Pitt
New York, Brooklyn, Philly, Pitt, NJ, Washington, Carolina, TB, Florida

Makes the most sense, barring either expansion or relocation. But, Markham/Quebec seem to top the discussion of expansion cities, So, who knows what happens if that happens.

Move Colorado to the West. Then the Central requires 2 teams. Are you going to move Detroit/Columbus back there?

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02-10-2013, 10:57 PM
  #69
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So,

I want to ask a question about the original article from Brooks.

It says there that the NHL and NHLPA are going to meet to talk about realignment.

Now, we have seen lots of ideas here, and in other realignment threads. Basically, 2 varieties:
1) 6-division
2) 4-division

In the case of 6-division, I have not seen even one that considers the situation if PHX moves to QC. And, I have tried to think of a good idea for that myself, and I can't find one that works.

In the case of 4-division, almost anything will accommodate a PHX - QC move.

So, the real question is:

How does the League discuss this with the players if the PHX situation is not yet resolved???

I can only see the possibility that the NHL has a travel schedule to show the PA. I can't imagine the NHL telling the PA what will happen with PHX, before they tell anyone else - too much possibility for leaks.

What do you all think?

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02-10-2013, 11:09 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
So,

I want to ask a question about the original article from Brooks.

It says there that the NHL and NHLPA are going to meet to talk about realignment.

Now, we have seen lots of ideas here, and in other realignment threads. Basically, 2 varieties:
1) 6-division
2) 4-division

In the case of 6-division, I have not seen even one that considers the situation if PHX moves to QC. And, I have tried to think of a good idea for that myself, and I can't find one that works.

In the case of 4-division, almost anything will accommodate a PHX - QC move.

So, the real question is:

How does the League discuss this with the players if the PHX situation is not yet resolved???

I can only see the possibility that the NHL has a travel schedule to show the PA. I can't imagine the NHL telling the PA what will happen with PHX, before they tell anyone else - too much possibility for leaks.

What do you all think?
I have posted the divisions with my proposal if Phoenix moves to Quebec:

Eastern Conference:
Northeast Division: Boston, Montreal, Buffalo, Ottawa, Quebec City
Atlantic Division: NY Islanders, NY Rangers, New Jersey, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh
Southeast Division: Florida, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Washington, Nashville

Western Conference:
Pacific Division: Vancouver, LA, San Jose, Anaheim, Colorado
Northwest Division: Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Minnesota, Dallas
Central Division: Chicago, St. Louis, Detroit, Columbus, Toronto

One major sticking point in that realignment is Toronto leaving Ottawa and Montreal so it is tough to make the realignment like that. However, I am sure that Detroit would be delighted to see Toronto back as their rivalry and an additional ETZ team in their division. Even though it is a logical move. So 4 divisions, I believe, will happen rather than 6 divisions.

I believe that Nashville should belong to the south division due to their geography despite their CTZ location.

Now, in case of expansion team, let's say if speculations come true, say, 2nd team in Toronto and Seattle or Quebec City come to the fruition. We would have balanced 32 teams with 4 conferences.

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02-10-2013, 11:12 PM
  #71
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Yeah unless phoenix goes to portland or seattle it`s a real nightmare.

If that were the case the pacific division would be easy as even van would love a cascadia rival. Than everything falls into place quite nicely.

If it goes to quebec nobodies getting a fresh seat in the east, the east might have to be realigned, and the west will be a complete mess unless they put winnipeg in the pacific

But this kind of talk makes me quite convinced the idea is gonna be dead in the water.

the 4 conference is automatically the pick, I`d bet good money on it.

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02-10-2013, 11:13 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Fugu may scorn me, but I'll take this opportunity, related to the separation of the Canadian teams, to post another friggin 4-Division alignment idea:

The Eastern Divisions


- Philadelphia stays with the NYC area teams.
- Boston and Montreal stay together; Montreal obviously gets QC, and Ottawa gets its nearest rival, Montreal.
- Toronto has a hissy fit, but is still with Buffalo, gets Detroit and Chicago back, plus Winnipeg.
- Minnesota and Winnipeg are probably both happy.
- Chicago gets to keep Detroit.
- Columbus gets both Detroit and Pittsburgh.
- Pittsburgh isn't happy, but like Toronto they really don't have a whole lot to complain about being in a Division with Columbus, Detroit, Buffalo, Chicago, and Toronto... Come on!
- Dallas is likely much happier than it is now.
- The Florida teams won't complain about the idea of being in a Division with the Canadian teams, nor vice versa.

Washington is still unhappy.
St Louis is unhappy.
But those 3 CTZ teams, though they don't strengthen the Southeast group much, they also don't make it weaker.

ADD IN: Division names:
Great Lakes
Northeast
South Central
I love it, and if realism weren`t an issue I`d be all for it.

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02-10-2013, 11:19 PM
  #73
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Unless there is expansion into western cities, ie. Seattle/Houston for example, and the Coyotes remaining in Glendale, there are going to be ETZ teams that end up in a division with CTZ teams. Just the reality of the demographics of the league.

If you go on the basis that the Coyotes either remain where they are or get moved to Seattle, then a 4 division breakdown should be:

I'd make the West 2 Seven team divisions. Any Eastern team that complains, can volunteer to join the Central division if they wish.

Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, San Jose, Los Angeles, Anaheim, Coyotes (Sea/Phx)
Colorado, Winnipeg, Dallas, St. Louis, Chicago, Minnesota, Nashville

Montreal, Toronto, Detroit, Ottawa, Buffalo, Boston, Columbus, Pitt
New York, Brooklyn, Philly, Pitt, NJ, Washington, Carolina, TB, Florida

Makes the most sense, barring either expansion or relocation. But, Markham/Quebec seem to top the discussion of expansion cities, So, who knows what happens if that happens.

Move Colorado to the West. Then the Central requires 2 teams. Are you going to move Detroit/Columbus back there?
I think that Markham would be in the division with Detroit/Columbus if the expansion goes through or even a relocation. There is a real need for more western team expansion so Seattle is my first choice and Houston could work if it is paired with Dallas as their divisions rivals. For the best interest of the league, financially, that Quebec City or Markham be visible franchise for the revenues that the league needed ever since it losing millions of dollars in Phoenix fiasco. Houston or Seattle can wait unless it has proven to be more profitable having them there.

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02-10-2013, 11:23 PM
  #74
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Thanks for those who have responded to my earlier question.

Again, what I am really wondering is:

1) What is the NHL going to say to the players? They could show them a proposed 4-conference set up travel schedule. Or, they could discuss the playoff situation for a 4-conference proposal. Anything with 4 conferences would be on the table.

2) Does the League really know what will happen to PHX already? I ask that because I don't see how they can talk about realignment without that. Even in a 4-conference proposal, the travel is different with QC than with PHX. So, how meaningful is that discussion?

3) If the NHL already knows the outcome of PHX, can they tell the players under a non-disclosure agreement?

Interesting times, for no other reason that the psychological curiosity of it all.

To the poster who posted Toronto leaving the east to make room for QC in a 6-division format: Nice touch I like it personally. But, I don't think it has even 1 chance in 10,000 of being adopted.

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02-10-2013, 11:25 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by coolboarder View Post
I have posted the divisions with my proposal if Phoenix moves to Quebec:

Eastern Conference:
Northeast Division: Boston, Montreal, Buffalo, Ottawa, Quebec City
Atlantic Division: NY Islanders, NY Rangers, New Jersey, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh
Southeast Division: Florida, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Washington, Nashville

Western Conference:
Pacific Division: Vancouver, LA, San Jose, Anaheim, Colorado
Northwest Division: Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Minnesota, Dallas
Central Division: Chicago, St. Louis, Detroit, Columbus, Toronto

One major sticking point in that realignment is Toronto leaving Ottawa and Montreal so it is tough to make the realignment like that. However, I am sure that Detroit would be delighted to see Toronto back as their rivalry and an additional ETZ team in their division. Even though it is a logical move. So 4 divisions, I believe, will happen rather than 6 divisions.

I believe that Nashville should belong to the south division due to their geography despite their CTZ location.

Now, in case of expansion team, let's say if speculations come true, say, 2nd team in Toronto and Seattle or Quebec City come to the fruition. We would have balanced 32 teams with 4 conferences.
I like this but I`d switch columbus with nashville, as nashville is a good rival for dallas, and dallas would goto central.

I`d also split alberta

And put toronto in the northwest

Western Conference:
Pacific Division: Vancouver, LA, San Jose, Anaheim, Calgary
Northwest Division: Edmonton, Detroit, Winnipeg, Minnesota,Toronto
Central Division: Chicago, St. Louis,Colorado , Nashville, Dallas


Last edited by HugoSimon: 02-10-2013 at 11:27 PM. Reason: ****** coherence. :)
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