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Joe Thorntons slump

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Old
02-11-2013, 01:16 AM
  #26
Phu
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
If you go out and get a shooter, you're only enabling Thornton to be the passer. That dynamic is just not going to work. The year Thornton decides to take the burden of scoring the goals himself and be the leader in that regard is the year that the Sharks win the Stanley Cup.
He deliberately did this a few years back no? In 07-08 he led the team in goals. In 06-07 he was 3rd on the team in shots (if you count Guerin's shot total). We didn't get any further.

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02-11-2013, 01:41 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
He deliberately did this a few years back no? In 07-08 he led the team in goals. In 06-07 he was 3rd on the team in shots (if you count Guerin's shot total). We didn't get any further.
Uh, no. Leading the team in goals like he did that year was more an example of shooting luck and coincidence that Marleau happened to suck that year and not having that much talent overall. Depth on the roster was an issue during the first three years after the lockout. The year he was second in shots was his second 90+ assist season. That's not someone you confuse with being a shooting threat. But even with that, he has dropped his shot totals significantly since that team. Yeah, the team has gotten better but a guy with the puck on his stick as much as he does should not be getting outshot by Dan Boyle year after year.

He's pretty much admitted that the dynamic is there and he's probably stubborn enough to believe that people are wrong when they say it won't work.

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02-11-2013, 02:03 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Uh, no. Leading the team in goals like he did that year was more an example of shooting luck and coincidence that Marleau happened to suck that year and not having that much talent overall. Depth on the roster was an issue during the first three years after the lockout. The year he was second in shots was his second 90+ assist season. That's not someone you confuse with being a shooting threat. But even with that, he has dropped his shot totals significantly since that team. Yeah, the team has gotten better but a guy with the puck on his stick as much as he does should not be getting outshot by Dan Boyle year after year.

He's pretty much admitted that the dynamic is there and he's probably stubborn enough to believe that people are wrong when they say it won't work.
16.3% is like 2% higher than his career average. I dunno how that's shooting luck. Especially when he shot at like 18% the next season and had less goals.

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02-11-2013, 02:08 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
16.3% is like 2% higher than his career average. I dunno how that's shooting luck. Especially when he shot at like 18% the next season and had less goals.
And you're still only talking about 29 goals on 178 shots. That's not even close to taking on the shooting responsibilities that he should when he's dominating the puck as much as he does. He should be shooting at least 100 more times than that and that's especially if he's having a good year putting the biscuit in.

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02-11-2013, 02:41 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Uh, no. Leading the team in goals like he did that year was more an example of shooting luck and coincidence that Marleau happened to suck that year and not having that much talent overall.
Actually it was reported that he was deliberately shooting more, so it wasn't just a coincidence.

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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
And you're still only talking about 29 goals on 178 shots. That's not even close to taking on the shooting responsibilities that he should when he's dominating the puck as much as he does. He should be shooting at least 100 more times than that and that's especially if he's having a good year putting the biscuit in.
Team didn't dominate the puck then like it does now. And that's kind of the rub, isn't it? Joe is a nearly generational playmaker. He is not nearly as good of a scorer. Tailoring the system to his possession skills has proven more successful than trying to square peg him by having him carry the goalscoring load as well.

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02-11-2013, 02:46 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
If you go out and get a shooter, you're only enabling Thornton to be the passer. That dynamic is just not going to work. The year Thornton decides to take the burden of scoring the goals himself and be the leader in that regard is the year that the Sharks win the Stanley Cup. Until then, Thornton's line eventually runs into a team good enough to defend that predictable setup and the supporting cast goes cold. It's the same story every year.


Well said.

Many great playmakers dot the league's history. The most successful ones have a common thread of shooting more and scoring more come playoff time. Adam Oates, Peter Forsberg, Wayne Gretzky...

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02-11-2013, 03:01 AM
  #32
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Last year in the playoffs he was tied for 2nd most shots on the team after Couture.

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02-11-2013, 09:33 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
Actually it was reported that he was deliberately shooting more, so it wasn't just a coincidence.



Team didn't dominate the puck then like it does now. And that's kind of the rub, isn't it? Joe is a nearly generational playmaker. He is not nearly as good of a scorer. Tailoring the system to his possession skills has proven more successful than trying to square peg him by having him carry the goalscoring load as well.
You take the reports with a grain of salt. Thornton has said numerous times over the years that he is trying to shoot the puck more yet he really doesn't. The team may not have dominated the puck in his early years but he sure as hell did. That's less of an excuse for him not to shoot when he's showing to be the only one reliable enough to maintain possession of the puck. The thought that shooting the puck for Joe Thornton is a square peg in a round hole is exactly the problem he has. That mentality has to go. Nobody should be shrugging the responsibilities of shooting the puck. That's like saying someone shouldn't have to defend or shouldn't have to pass. That is a basic necessity of a hockey player.

And the reality is that if he wants to win the Cup, he's going to have to take on a more selfish attitude to do it instead of waiting until their backs are against the wall like normal.

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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post


Well said.

Many great playmakers dot the league's history. The most successful ones have a common thread of shooting more and scoring more come playoff time. Adam Oates, Peter Forsberg, Wayne Gretzky...
I hope he realizes that but chances are he won't. He's very stubborn.

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Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
Last year in the playoffs he was tied for 2nd most shots on the team after Couture.
We're also talking a five game sample size AND the bulk of his production came when they were behind. They were mostly snuffed and Thornton was not even remotely a threat to score goals when the game was tied. He was still playing the role of passer and then when it got late and they were behind by a couple goals, that's when he decided it was time to take it into his own hands. He has to have that mentality from the first puck drop.

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02-11-2013, 02:39 PM
  #34
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I agree that he should shoot more, but I don't think he needs to or should be the leading shooter on the team.

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02-11-2013, 03:49 PM
  #35
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Meh. Half of it is the roster. The Sharks have traded away a lot of solid 3rd/4th liners and prospects to land rentals for each year's playoff run. Sometimes it was a direct swap, sometimes it was to clear room to sign a veteran for a year or two.

The result? An old, declining, sorry excuse for a bottom 6. Wilson has been more aggressive in "win now" than his model franchise, the Red Wings. Even if you can continue to re-sign your top players at hometown discounts, eventually you have nothing left for the bottom 6 and are stuck hoping guys like Gomez and Handzus can get'er'done.

The other half of it is the system. Simply put, McLellan has not shown to me the ability to adjust to an opponent. That's what separates very good coaches from average coaches. Once a team "figures out" the Sharks, that's it. It's over. The tweaks to fix the Sharks often come a month or two later. That doesn't work so well come playoff time. Take a look at the Sharks powerplay. Yes, powerplays go hot/cold, but the night and day swing from when teams had a few games of video vs before they had video is mindboggling.

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02-11-2013, 04:11 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Trojan35 View Post
Meh. Half of it is the roster. The Sharks have traded away a lot of solid 3rd/4th liners and prospects to land rentals for each year's playoff run. Sometimes it was a direct swap, sometimes it was to clear room to sign a veteran for a year or two.

The result? An old, declining, sorry excuse for a bottom 6. Wilson has been more aggressive in "win now" than his model franchise, the Red Wings. Even if you can continue to re-sign your top players at hometown discounts, eventually you have nothing left for the bottom 6 and are stuck hoping guys like Gomez and Handzus can get'er'done.
Yeah it's like 2 kids and an old goat, that has never been a recipe for success.


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02-11-2013, 04:25 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Trojan35 View Post
Meh. Half of it is the roster. The Sharks have traded away a lot of solid 3rd/4th liners and prospects to land rentals for each year's playoff run. Sometimes it was a direct swap, sometimes it was to clear room to sign a veteran for a year or two.

The result? An old, declining, sorry excuse for a bottom 6. Wilson has been more aggressive in "win now" than his model franchise, the Red Wings. Even if you can continue to re-sign your top players at hometown discounts, eventually you have nothing left for the bottom 6 and are stuck hoping guys like Gomez and Handzus can get'er'done.

The other half of it is the system. Simply put, McLellan has not shown to me the ability to adjust to an opponent. That's what separates very good coaches from average coaches. Once a team "figures out" the Sharks, that's it. It's over. The tweaks to fix the Sharks often come a month or two later. That doesn't work so well come playoff time. Take a look at the Sharks powerplay. Yes, powerplays go hot/cold, but the night and day swing from when teams had a few games of video vs before they had video is mindboggling.
I don't find that this is neccesarily fair. Woudl Torrey Mitchell, Jay Barriball, Josh Gorges, Nick Bonino, or Ty Wishart really help this roster that much right now? Really, the best bottom-6 players we've had have been free agent additions on the cheap/trades - Malhotra, Roenick, Winnik, etc.

And other than Handzus, how is our bottom-six old and declining? Wingels, Shepard, Galiardi, and Desjardins are young...

The only guys, from memory, who could've helped right now would have been Brad Boyes (unlikely he would have stayed here), Marcel Goc (who simply never put it together here and left as a FA), Christian Ehrhoff (would have priced himself out), and Matt Carle (would have priced himself out). Perhaps Steve Bernier as a #8-9 guy.

The one guys that really fits your billing is Sgarbossa, maybe Connolly. Time will tell.

On that note, what was the trade that SJ made where they lost the pick that turned into David Krejci?

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Old
02-11-2013, 04:45 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
I don't find that this is neccesarily fair. Woudl Torrey Mitchell, Jay Barriball, Josh Gorges, Nick Bonino, or Ty Wishart really help this roster that much right now? Really, the best bottom-6 players we've had have been free agent additions on the cheap/trades - Malhotra, Roenick, Winnik, etc.

And other than Handzus, how is our bottom-six old and declining? Wingels, Shepard, Galiardi, and Desjardins are young...

The only guys, from memory, who could've helped right now would have been Brad Boyes (unlikely he would have stayed here), Marcel Goc (who simply never put it together here and left as a FA), Christian Ehrhoff (would have priced himself out), and Matt Carle (would have priced himself out). Perhaps Steve Bernier as a #8-9 guy.

The one guys that really fits your billing is Sgarbossa, maybe Connolly. Time will tell.

On that note, what was the trade that SJ made where they lost the pick that turned into David Krejci?
From what I found on the 2004 draft...it was the result of a trade on June 26, 2004 that sent Boston's third and ninth-round picks and Tampa Bay's fourth-round pick all in 2004 (94th, 129th and 288th overall) to San Jose in exchange for this pick.

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02-11-2013, 05:02 PM
  #39
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From what I found on the 2004 draft...it was the result of a trade on June 26, 2004 that sent Boston's third and ninth-round picks and Tampa Bay's fourth-round pick all in 2004 (94th, 129th and 288th overall) to San Jose in exchange for this pick.
Probably the only time in DW's tenure that he has traded down in the draft...has to bite.

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02-11-2013, 05:11 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Trojan35 View Post

The result? An old, declining, sorry excuse for a bottom 6.
Burish (30)
Desjardins (26)
Galiardi (24)
Handzus (35)
Gomez (33)
Sheppard (24)
Wingles (24)


We got a ******* retirement home up in hurrrr

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02-11-2013, 05:14 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
Burish (30)
Desjardins (26)
Galiardi (24)
Handzus (35)
Gomez (33)
Sheppard (24)
Wingles (24)


We got a ******* retirement home up in hurrrr
Heh, fair point. I meant the "talent" on the 3rd/4th lines is ancient and, well, no longer talented (handzus, gomez).

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02-11-2013, 05:21 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
And you're still only talking about 29 goals on 178 shots. That's not even close to taking on the shooting responsibilities that he should when he's dominating the puck as much as he does. He should be shooting at least 100 more times than that and that's especially if he's having a good year putting the biscuit in.
this and the fact that he takes the puck directlyto the boards nearly every time he enters the offensive end. how about driving the net? it worked great for the first 6 games of the season.

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02-12-2013, 03:41 PM
  #43
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What's happening with Havlat?

I have him in my hockey pool....

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02-12-2013, 03:44 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by danyhabsfan View Post
What's happening with Havlat?

I have him in my hockey pool....
He's been put into the line mixer and spent a lot of time off the 2nd line.

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02-12-2013, 03:46 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by danyhabsfan View Post
What's happening with Havlat?

I have him in my hockey pool....
He hasn't played like the Martin Havlat who had been known to use his agility to get to openings and use the great wrist shot he possesses.

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02-12-2013, 03:49 PM
  #46
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He hasn't played like the Martin Havlat who had been known to use his agility to get to openings and use the great wrist shot he possesses.
Havlat for Kaberle

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Old
02-12-2013, 11:32 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by danyhabsfan View Post
What's happening with Havlat?

I have him in my hockey pool....
No heart.

Doesn't go in tough areas.

Never shoots the puck, or he shoots it softer than Vlasic.

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