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Team Toughness or lack thereof

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Old
02-10-2013, 11:18 AM
  #26
FolignoQuantumLeap
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Nothing brings out antiquated opinions quite like a thread about "hockey toughness".

"Toughness" is one of those things that to some fans, you can never have enough of. I remember hearing complaints about it last year, when we had Carkner, and Konopka. I remember complaints that we weren't "tough enough" when McGrattan was caving heads in and getting skated around like he was still wearing double-blades.

If some fans had their way, they'd have 10 Krzystof Oliwa's out there with two Gretzky's.

We have lots of muscle out there. No single team has taken liberties with our guys yet this year. Not once. Our team doesn't get intimidated. We're not losing games because our forwards wear high heels, ferchristssakes. We're losing games because we don't have enough skilled forwards right now to put the puck in the net. We have 7 goals in the last 5 games. You can't punch the puck into the net.

Terrible thread is terrible.
Now that MoO seems to be less active, you're my new favourite poster.

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Old
02-10-2013, 11:27 AM
  #27
BonkTastic
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Originally Posted by FolignoQuantumLeap View Post
Now that MoO seems to be less active, you're my new favourite poster.
High praise, thanks!

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02-10-2013, 11:33 AM
  #28
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In respect to team toughness IMO we have a number of what I would call tough players already & it doesn't always mean dropping the gloves. They usually play a good, fast, forechecking game, they hit & are very hard to play against. Their biggest weakness to date seems to be scoring goals & that's where the guys that are paid to score need to step up. The other guys are doing their jobs, goals against are way down this yr. I also think that next season this team will be a little tougher if they decide not to re-sign some guys like Daugavins, Latendresse, Condra, Benoit & Regin, but that remains to be seen. Regin was just starting to look good out there too (it's deja vu all over again). Benoit & Condra could also be re-signed or any of them could be traded some IMO have value.

Keep in mind that eventually Stone, Grant, DD, Noesen, Gryba, Borocop & Ceci could all be coming within the next few yrs & not only will that make our team bigger but harder to play against & tougher. Then there is always the possibility that Murray makes a move or two to improve the team. So while it's not a priority to be tougher, I think it will eventually happen through attrition as contracts run out. Looking at the list above makes me think that Marc Power the skating coach has some work to do.

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Old
02-10-2013, 11:33 AM
  #29
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Lets fill our team up with some tough north american boys, wooooo

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02-10-2013, 11:49 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Nothing brings out antiquated opinions quite like a thread about "hockey toughness".

"Toughness" is one of those things that to some fans, you can never have enough of. I remember hearing complaints about it last year, when we had Carkner, and Konopka. I remember complaints that we weren't "tough enough" when McGrattan was caving heads in and getting skated around like he was still wearing double-blades.

If some fans had their way, they'd have 10 Krzystof Oliwa's out there with two Gretzky's.

We have lots of muscle out there. No single team has taken liberties with our guys yet this year. Not once. Our team doesn't get intimidated. We're not losing games because our forwards wear high heels, ferchristssakes. We're losing games because we don't have enough skilled forwards right now to put the puck in the net. We have 7 goals in the last 5 games. You can't punch the puck into the net.

Terrible thread is terrible.
.

Great post.

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Old
02-10-2013, 12:01 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Nothing brings out antiquated opinions quite like a thread about "hockey toughness".

"Toughness" is one of those things that to some fans, you can never have enough of. I remember hearing complaints about it last year, when we had Carkner, and Konopka. I remember complaints that we weren't "tough enough" when McGrattan was caving heads in and getting skated around like he was still wearing double-blades.

If some fans had their way, they'd have 10 Krzystof Oliwa's out there with two Gretzky's.

We have lots of muscle out there. No single team has taken liberties with our guys yet this year. Not once. Our team doesn't get intimidated. We're not losing games because our forwards wear high heels, ferchristssakes. We're losing games because we don't have enough skilled forwards right now to put the puck in the net. We have 7 goals in the last 5 games. You can't punch the puck into the net.

Terrible thread is terrible.
Im not disagreeing with you... We are missing skilled players needed to score more goals, but there has to be a balance.

We went years with some of the most skilled, highest scoring teams during the regular season who completely sharted the bed in the playoffs when goals were harder to come by and skill alone wasnt enough. Getting to dirty areas, mucking it up in front of the net etc. to me is better than having a George Parros.

When Da Costa is your most physical forward. It needs to get better.

Toughness alone isnt what made us lose yesterday, but a little jam maybe would have got something going.

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Old
02-10-2013, 01:04 PM
  #32
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Goals we need.
More penalties we don't need.

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Old
02-10-2013, 01:22 PM
  #33
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Toughness is a pretty general concept as it can refer to many things. Toughness could mean fighting, or hitting or agitating or intimidation or driving to the net/net presence or being able to out battle the opposition along the boards and in the corners. Due to the many interpretations and general ambiguity of the term "toughness", this can lead fans into a rather heated debate about whether we have sufficient or not enough toughness.

We don't really need another enforcer per say, but we could probably use another player or two who regularly drop the gloves. By "enforcer" I am referring to any player that is a prominent fighter but can't contribute much else aside from fighting (Or, MacIntrye, Carkner, Konopka). Currently we only really have Neil and Smith as players who regularly drop the gloves and both are playing well enough that ideally we wouldn't ant to lose them for 5 minutes on a regular basis. Ideally any "fighter" we bring in would be able to play a regular shift and be able to contribute to the team other skills on top of their fighting ability. Also it would be better if this player/players was a forward because we are not in a strong position for having to play five d men because our 6th d man is off in the box for fighting.

In terms of hitting, we could probably use a few more hitters. We have a fair amount of players that finish their checks but aside from Neil, Methot and Smith we don't have many players in which hitting is a strong part of their game. We could use a few more players that play a punishing kind of game.

I think our weakest are of toughness is our ability to agitate. Ever since we lost Jarkko Ruutu we never really replaced his ability to get under the skin of the opposition. Foligno was starting to develop into that kind of player but then we traded him. It was a good trade because Methot has been an awesome player for us but we are now missing an agitator type from our lineup. What we really need more than fighting is a few "spark plug" type of players who are effective at agitating and making big hits.

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Old
02-11-2013, 06:58 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esdoorn View Post
tough = getting in front of the net to screen the goalie

tough = getting into the middle to create changes and not just play along the board

tough = making some hits

not to hard to figure out that in the last number of games, this team has not played 'tough'.
Agreed!

Come playoff time, you need toughness, and NEIL can't do it all alone.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, the Team with the most Canadian players win the Cup, year after year after year. What part of that don't people understand.

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02-11-2013, 07:01 AM
  #35
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Our problem was guys not moving their feet.

Doesn't matter how tough you are if you aren't skating.

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Old
02-11-2013, 07:11 AM
  #36
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Trade Karlsson to get these guys.
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Old
02-11-2013, 07:17 AM
  #37
BonkTastic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Richard View Post
Agreed!

Come playoff time, you need toughness, and NEIL can't do it all alone.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, the Team with the most Canadian players win the Cup, year after year after year. What part of that don't people understand.
Well, there's the part where you're patently wrong. That's the part I don't understand.

Someone needs to tell Ken Holland and Mike Illitch that all of Detroit's Stanley Cups don't count. They deserve to know about that.

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Old
02-11-2013, 07:19 AM
  #38
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I've said it before, I'll say it again, the Team with the most Canadian players win the Cup, year after year after year. What part of that don't people understand.
Look, I agree with you in principle. I love my Canadian players. There is no question that almost all Cup winners have had a large Canadian component. It's a question of is this correlation or causation? Does anyone question that Alfie has the most heart on this team? I don't. Zdeno Chara's been the most intimidating d-man for the past decade and he's Slovakian. Erik Karlsson is the only reason our team is still in the thick of things despite the loss of our #1 center.

Where I agree with you is in getting the right mix. I have to admit I'm not thrilled when we have too many of the same type of player - Regin, DaCosta, Condra, Silfverberg, Turris, Lundin Gonchar, Benoit - and not enough of the right role players to compliment them. More of the same doesn't always equal an aggregate increase in overall talent. Because talent needs room to work. Our team, of all teams, should know this based on our past experiences in the playoffs with talented teams that couldn't find space to work and were shutdown by more physical opponents. I have absolutely no desire to see that mistake repeated by people looking for a quick injection of talent (e.g. the Filatov experiment) while ignoring team chemistry and ability to actually play the hard fore-checking /puck-possession game that Maclean wants.

Ok, I'll put my big mouth on the line and get specific.

I wouldn't have DaCosta on the 4th line. He's a second liner or he's not on the team. I would permanently scratch Peter Regin unless we had no other choice from Binghamton or elsewhere. I would play Wiercioch-Benoit together or consider bringing up Boro or Gryba to play as a 6th dman. I would look to make a reasonable move for a veteran forward (e.g. Ryan Clowe) who can still play top-9 and contribute physically. No giving away of top prospects but if a move like this can be made for a mid-level prospect or pick then fine. And next year we get Cowen back so we're looking better even after losing Gonchar.

All of this is easier said than done but you can't tell me a roster like the one below wouldn't be in a better position to succeed in the playoffs than the one we have today....

Michalek - Spezza - Silfverberg
Clowe - Turris - Alfie
Lats - Smith - Neil
Greening - JOB - Condra
(Daug)

Methot - Karlsson
Wiercioch - Gonchar
Phillips - Gryba
(Benoit)

Anderson/Lehner

It's not that there are more Canadians. It's that there is a better mix of skill and bangers. Like last year's team. I just want the team to have the best chance to win.

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Old
02-11-2013, 07:41 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Richard View Post
I've said it before, I'll say it again, the Team with the most Canadian players win the Cup, year after year after year.
I just wanted to point out, once again, how brutally wrong this is.

2012 Cup Champion: LA Kings.
Tied for 7th most Canadians out of the 16 teams in the playoffs that year. That 7th place drops even lower when you take into account the non-playoff teams. They have almost the league-average number. An American won the Conn Smythe.

2011 Champs: Boston Bruins
5th amongst playoff teams, behind Washington, Philly, Edmonton, and San Jose. Once again, drops to about 10th once you take into account non-playoff teams. American won the Conn Smythe.

2010 Champs: Chicago Blackhawks
Actually had the most Canadians on their roster that season, but only because they played more players than almost any other team (injuries, etc..) When looked at as a percentage of active roster, they were 4th (behind Philly, San Jose, Vancouver) among Playoff teams. 5th among NHL teams.

2009 Champs: Pittsburgh Penguins
9th fewest (FEWEST!) Canadians in the league. Russian won the Conn Smythe.

2008 Champs: Detroit Red Wings
Only had 7 (SEVEN!!!) Canadians on their playoff roster. SEVEN!!
Conn Smythe? You guessed it: not from Canada (Zetterberg, a Swede)




I can keep going, man. All the way back to the mid 90's and the "Russian Five"-era Red Wings...


Last edited by BonkTastic: 02-11-2013 at 07:48 AM. Reason: fixed minor Blackhawks stats.
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Old
02-11-2013, 07:49 AM
  #40
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We should trade Spezza, Turris, Smith, Neil, Cowen, Methot, Boro, etc and get more Russians!

What happened to just having good hockey players who arent soft? I dont care if a guy is Canadian, American, Swedish, Russian, or Chinese if he plays hard and contributes.

North Americans are always thought to be grittier while the Europeans are always thought to be more skilled. No matter how many examples there are on both sides of that argument, nothing will ever change that thinking.

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Old
02-11-2013, 08:00 AM
  #41
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What happened to just having good hockey players who arent soft? I dont care if a guy is Canadian, American, Swedish, Russian, or Chinese if he plays hard and contributes.
This. I like the way this is stated. That sums it up perfectly. And I'm Canadian and love Canadian style hockey. It just doesn't have to be all Canadians playing that style. Alfie taught me that. Well actually, Borje Salming taught me that but still.....

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Old
02-11-2013, 08:12 AM
  #42
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2006 Champs: Carolina Hurricanes
had the 8th most Canadians of any Playoff team. Around 13th most in the league. Average.

2004 Champs: Tampa Bay Lightning
11 NHL teams had as many or more Canadians as Tampa did during the regular season, including non-playoff teams like Atlanta, Buffalo, Washington, Chicago, Edmonton and Minnesota.


I can keep going...

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Old
02-11-2013, 08:36 AM
  #43
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2003 Champs: New Jersy Devils.
9th out of the 16 playoff teams in terms of number of Canadians. Below average. Regular season was below average as well.

2002 Champs: Detroit Red Wings
Had 10 Canadians on their playoff roster, about 11-12th out of 16 playoff teams. Once again, there were quite a few more teams who didn't even make the playoffs had more Canadians on their rosters than the Cup champs.

2001 Champs: Colorado Avalanche
10 out of 16 playoff teams had as many or more Canadians on their roster. Even more non-playoff teams had more Canadians than Colorado.



Have I made my point yet? I want to be sure that no one... and I mean NO ONE, brings up this stupid point again. Ever.

It's a silly, xenophobic idea.

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Old
02-11-2013, 08:39 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
2003 Champs: New Jersy Devils.
9th out of the 16 playoff teams in terms of number of Canadians. Below average. Regular season was below average as well.

2002 Champs: Detroit Red Wings
Had 10 Canadians on their playoff roster, about 11-12th out of 16 playoff teams. Once again, there were quite a few more teams who didn't even make the playoffs had more Canadians on their rosters than the Cup champs.

2001 Champs: Colorado Avalanche
10 out of 16 playoff teams had as many or more Canadians on their roster. Even more non-playoff teams had more Canadians than Colorado.



Have I made my point yet? I want to be sure that no one... and I mean NO ONE, brings up this stupid point again. Ever.

It's a silly, xenophobic idea.
so you're saying ovechkin is better than crosby?



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02-11-2013, 08:43 AM
  #45
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Keep in mind that Carkner and Konopka were good fits for the Rangers series but were scratched for much of the year because they had trouble contributing in the regular season.

Depending on the match-up, the playoffs require different kinds of players.

Hopefully our depth can account for that.

Hopefully we make the playoffs.

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Old
02-11-2013, 08:43 AM
  #46
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We've got Da Bosta, no worries guys...

But seriously, people like Greening need to play to their strengths... If you're 6'4" make the most of it before you get traded/out the league...

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02-11-2013, 09:08 AM
  #47
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We need a good playmaking center that can score 30 goals and wins draws...

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Old
02-11-2013, 09:23 AM
  #48
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If Speeza was in the lineup and we were winning games, I doubt this thread would be made.

However, I don't think we lack "toughness"...what we lack is

1) a center who can win draws
2) IMO we need a rugged winger with experience..to help win battles along the boards.
3) We need better team chemistry to setup plays in the offensive zone.

To be #3 is the most important thing...too many times we float in the zone with a mean looking offensive rush and then have no idea what to do with the puck....Michelak has gone passenger mode and so have a few others...

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02-11-2013, 10:51 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Richard View Post
Agreed!

Come playoff time, you need toughness, and NEIL can't do it all alone.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, the Team with the most Canadian players win the Cup, year after year after year. What part of that don't people understand.

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Old
02-11-2013, 10:56 AM
  #50
Rocket Richard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Have I made my point yet? I want to be sure that no one... and I mean NO ONE, brings up this stupid point again. Ever.

It's a silly, xenophobic idea.
I'm talking about the Team that won the Cup over the Team that lost it in the Finals.

Prove me wrong!

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