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Old
02-10-2013, 10:43 PM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
You might need to brush up on the UFA market before dissertations on how farm systems are irrelevant. Not that the Kings, Bruins, Red Wings, Penguins, or Blackhawks agree with that.
Eh I'm at work I just went with the first link on google and went with that, are some of those names not UFA's this year? I'm not understanding the reference to those specific teams though. The Kings have home grown talent and then traded a large part of the farm for the final peices to the roster. The Penguins sucked for like 5 years straight and had top picks. The Red wings have probably the best scouts of any team. They get late round gems left and right, it's not just the Flyers that missed on Lidstrom or Datsyuk. The Bruins traded a young up and coming player for picks which turned into 2 top 10 draft picks, but they were also bad for a stretch as well. Chicago was terrible for a long time as well.

Your 6 million dollar UFA defensemen was just resigned.

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02-10-2013, 10:47 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
Eh I'm at work I just went with the first link on google and went with that, are some of those names not UFA's this year? I'm not understanding the reference to those specific teams though. The Kings have home grown talent and then traded a large part of the farm for the final peices to the roster. The Penguins sucked for like 5 years straight and had top picks. The Red wings have probably the best scouts of any team. They get late round gems left and right, it's not just the Flyers that missed on Lidstrom or Datsyuk. The Bruins traded a young up and coming player for picks which turned into 2 top 10 draft picks, but they were also bad for a stretch as well. Chicago was terrible for a long time as well.
Whitney, White, Streit, Regher, and Smid are the only ones you mentioned that are possible free agents this summer.

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02-10-2013, 11:18 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
Free agency doesn't exist? Its funny you mention those 3 as em were grown in the organization. 2 were acquired in the same deal in the same offseason for a 1st round pick that wasn't even our own that we acquired earlier the same year for an aging Foppa. And Briere was signed in Free Agency.
Free agency will never be the same. Our main advantage was throwing brinks trucks at people. That advantage is gone as of 1 month ago. We cant spread out the cap hit over 15 years anymore.

Fewer top talent will become available in the years to come as the rules make it more advantageous to keep your own players. Mid level guys will still be available at matt carle prices.

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02-10-2013, 11:25 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
And I'm saying who cares how good the farm is? You forfeited farm for a great NHL team who is young to boot. I don't see what is wrong with it. Again I don't have a care in the world how well the AHL team does, a Calder Cup means nothing to me. A Memorial Cup means even less. And even then isn't one of our terribad prospects drafted outside the 1st round leading the OHL in scoring?

Enstrom, Edler, Whitney, White, Streit, Regher, Smid, Vlasic not that I'd give 6m for all of them but idk where that price point came from. There are some decent puck movers that are UFA soon
I dont think any of us said we care about winning the calder. What we want is a farm system that we could have traded for weber without ruining the NHL club or the org depth.

We want a steady source of help to continue coming.

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02-10-2013, 11:59 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan8828 View Post
Whitney, White, Streit, Regher, and Smid are the only ones you mentioned that are possible free agents this summer.
To add to that list now that I am home and can look at a proper list of players. Visnovsky, Gonchar, Zidlicky, Hainsey, Murray, Bergeron

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02-11-2013, 12:28 AM
  #156
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When other teams trade their futures away for players, they make sure that:
A. The players they acquire are solid long-term additions
B. That the players are still relatively young
A perfect example of this would be the Kings trading for a 26 year old Mike Richards, or acquiring the 27 year old Jeff Carter, both of whom are signed long-term to reasonable cap-hits.

When Holmgren trades his futures away, rarely do the above rulesapply. See the acquisition of a 35 year old Chris Pronger, the acquisition of Pavel Kubina, the acquisition of Kris Versteeg, etc.

Hence we have a crappy farm system and Holmgren defenders are forced to say "our team is our farm system". If not for Holmgren's mismanagement, we could've had a good young core AND a good farm system. What some fail to realize is that the two are not mutually exclusive. Holmgren might make it look like they are, but they're not.

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02-11-2013, 12:33 AM
  #157
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And those who need a comparison to figure out why most fans like Holmgren, look no further than Ruben Amaro Jr, the man who took a championship team, drastically increased the salary, and has seen the results get progressively worse each year he's managed the team.

Ruben Amaro Jr is a terrible GM, but he's exciting, he makes a ton of high profile moves for high profile players and that makes fans happy. Ditto Paul Holmgren. He's always wheeling and dealing. Doesn't matter if it's for better or worse, he's an exciting GM and fans perceive his activity and his knee-jerk reactions as showing that "he cares".

I don't agree with that philosophy; I think all GMs care deeply about the product they put on the ice and about making the team better, but for some reason a ton of fans think the organizations they root for are all evil, money-grubbing enterprises where GMs routinely cut corners to save $$$, and to those fans, Holmgren and the Flyers wheeling and dealing and constantly overpaying for guys and pushing the limits of the cap shows that they really care.

I don't understand it, but I've come to accept it.

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02-11-2013, 12:44 AM
  #158
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Honestly, everytime Zidlicky plays against us he kills us. I remember his one disastrious turnover last year against us, but if he was a UFA i'd definitely sign him. He'd be good for us.

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02-11-2013, 12:47 AM
  #159
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That's a masterfully chosen thread title. Could give two ***** about the flyers but it was enough for me to read this thread.

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02-11-2013, 12:47 AM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingHigh28 View Post
And those who need a comparison to figure out why most fans like Holmgren, look no further than Ruben Amaro Jr, the man who took a championship team, drastically increased the salary, and has seen the results get progressively worse each year he's managed the team.

Ruben Amaro Jr is a terrible GM, but he's exciting, he makes a ton of high profile moves for high profile players and that makes fans happy. Ditto Paul Holmgren. He's always wheeling and dealing. Doesn't matter if it's for better or worse, he's an exciting GM and fans perceive his activity and his knee-jerk reactions as showing that "he cares".

I don't agree with that philosophy; I think all GMs care deeply about the product they put on the ice and about making the team better, but for some reason a ton of fans think the organizations they root for are all evil, money-grubbing enterprises where GMs routinely cut corners to save $$$, and to those fans, Holmgren and the Flyers wheeling and dealing and constantly overpaying for guys and pushing the limits of the cap shows that they really care.

I don't understand it, but I've come to accept it.
I think the only difference between the two is Homer's actually good at drafting and evaluating talent (when the resources are there) and Amaro's horrible at drafting and evaluating talent (with or without having the resources).

With the new CBA making it difficult for Homer to go about his normal ways. Maybe he'll have to get away from his wheeling and dealing philosophy. I think Homer could be a good GM if he learned its ok to stay put sometimes and try to build the organization through the draft. But I guess we'll see around the deadline and offseason if he changes.


Last edited by LegionOfDoom91: 02-11-2013 at 02:28 AM.
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Old
02-11-2013, 03:19 AM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
and Amaro's horrible at drafting and evaluating talent (with or without having the resources).
Eh, I actually think the Phillies have a good scouting department - albeit I don't agree with their drafting philosophy (though they finally seem to have started coming off their HS athlete that can't play baseball obsession). Their problem; however, is that they habitually put less money into the draft than other teams (even since becoming the 'Yankees' of the NL in FA), often opting for a lesser talent willing to sign for slot rather than a better talent asking for above at the same position. Still, they've managed to do quite well for themselves in the draft in recent years (even if most get traded - often in horrible, horrible ways *cough Hunter Pence cough*), imo.

Evaluating talent on the other hand? I'll definitely agree there... I'm actually pretty sure Amaro still thinks it is 1920 and he hasn't even heard of OPS let alone sabremetrics. This lineup is gonna put up alot of sexy solo HRs in 4-3 losses this year.

But I digress...

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02-11-2013, 03:31 AM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CootaRoo View Post
Eh, I actually think the Phillies have a good scouting department - albeit I don't agree with their drafting philosophy (though they finally seem to have started coming off their HS athlete that can't play baseball obsession). Their problem; however, is that they habitually put less money into the draft than other teams (even since becoming the 'Yankees' of the NL in FA), often opting for a lesser talent willing to sign for slot rather than a better talent asking for above at the same position. Still, they've managed to do quite well for themselves in the draft in recent years (even if most get traded - often in horrible, horrible ways *cough Hunter Pence cough*), imo.

Evaluating talent on the other hand? I'll definitely agree there... I'm actually pretty sure Amaro still thinks it is 1920 and he hasn't even heard of OPS let alone sabremetrics. This lineup is gonna put up alot of sexy solo HRs in 4-3 losses this year.

But I digress...
It's hard to compare them because the drafts are so different. My main point was that when Homer has draft picks to draft with he usually gets good value for his selections. The trick though is hanging on to them picks and not trading them.

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02-11-2013, 05:16 AM
  #163
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I really don't get the hate. The Flyers have been one of the top teams in the league since Holmgren got here. The record shows that. This being a prospect site, I imagine most here would love to have a highly rated prospect pool as well as a good hockey team. So I get the dislike of the way he pisses away draft picks (I am not a fan of it either), but if you compare his to the record of the rest of the league, Holmgren is excellent. There is no argument there. The record is the record. The only thing he hasn't done is win the Stanley Cup.

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02-11-2013, 07:18 AM
  #164
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Please. Upshall was by no means a vital, core player, but he also wasn't and isn't the replacement-level player like those you're comparing him to.
Really? Aside from his inability to stay healthy, his career high in points is 34. He plays ok defense and plays with a lot of energy. Sounds to me like a dime-a-dozen 3rd or 4th liner. I guess I'd rather have him than the guys I listed, but it isn't night and day. Maybe Upshall is better, but not by much.

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02-11-2013, 07:24 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yeah...when your farm is all NHL players, that's not your farm. That's your NHL team.
I think the point is that our young guns on the NHL team is better than having guys in the pipe that COULD turn into young guns on the NHL team. I understand the desire to have both, and don't get me wrong I would love that too, but very few teams have as many young guys under 25 with this type of upside in their entire organization, let alone on the NHL team.

Everyone is so concerned with having picks and prospects but failing to realize that if we had kept those picks and prospects, we would likely not have the Schenns, Couturiers, etc that we do have. We may have different guys, possibly better, possibly worse. But it is not as if the Flyers would have all the guys they have now, plus a ton of other can't miss prospects. They may have a little of both. They may have none of the guys they have now but a ton of high end prospects. It is six of one and half dozen of the other. We have a good young core. I'll take it.

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02-11-2013, 07:26 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Twilight Sparkle View Post
That's a masterfully chosen thread title. Could give two ***** about the flyers but it was enough for me to read this thread.
I'm glad someone appreciated it.

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02-11-2013, 07:29 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
I think some people wouldnt care if we gave up a 1st and a prospect for Kevin Westgarth. Thats how little I think some think about draft picks and prospects around here.
Don't hurt yourself under the weight of your own hyperbole.

You'd rather we use the picks to stock the farm so they might one day help the team.
I'm happy with us using them to get players to help us now and join the team immediately.

Draft picks are the most over-rated thing on HF by a country mile.

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02-11-2013, 07:30 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
that was the year they had to sign 2 college kids off the street to PTO's the final weekend against the Rangers.
That was the year we went to the finals, right?

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02-11-2013, 07:39 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
That was the year we went to the finals, right?
Yeah dude, but like, just think of all the prospects that we COULD have had if we didn't have that team that went to the Finals (which by the way, was just luck). You see, it is more important to re-write history with all these draft picks and guys we could have added to the mix that would have surely brought us to the promised land (like Upshall, Tomas Hyka, Lucas Lessio, that third rounder we traded, that fourth rounder we traded, that one guy who is only remembered by people on HFBoards, Joacim Eriksson, etc), than it is to look at what we actually have (or had at the time) and realize we have one of the best young group of kids in the NHL.

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02-11-2013, 07:53 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
i think I explained myself already. if we had some viable options down on the farm we wouldnt have to sign crap like Gervais, Foster and Lilja.

I never once said i want a stacked ****ing roster in ADK. It would be nice to have a farm roster with you know actual prospects? not a bunch of ****** junior prospects no one else wanted.
Look at our roster compared to every other NHL teams farm club. Just about everyone else has guys they can call up and play. Who do we have after Gus? LOL
Pretty sad when the best otions to call up on the farm at forward are Wellwood and McGinn
Gervais is doing fine, he's quite capable down there. The other two are scrubs but they're 6/7 defensemen. What exactly do you expect from those guys and what exactly do other teams have as that guy? They're bottom pairing because they suck.

Sure, lots of teams have better prospects than us but how have they acquired it, how has it helped them?

Only 5 teams have made the play-offs as much as us since Holmgren took over.
Only 4 of those have been to the conf finals twice in that time.
Only 3 of them have been to the finals too.

We've done all that without ever really having a 'stacked ****ing roster in ADK' and despite only having a 'bunch of ****** junior prospects'. Who cares if other teams have players they can call up and play? We have all of our prospects on the roster now and doing well. Hell, we have Couturier/Schenn on the third line and will have Meszaros on our third D pairing. We lead the league in rookie scoring last year and have one of the lowest average ages in the NHL. This means a constant flow of rookies coming in isn't necessary like it is at other clubs.

A chock-a-block full AHL roster like...say, Tampa would be amazing. Let's be realistic though, it's incredibly difficult (some say impossible) to have both that and a contending NHL roster without sucking for years. Look at Tampa for example, away from their two top 2 picks and their ageing stars they don't have much else on the active roster. Look at the HF prospect rankings for example. Minnesota, Florida, Edmonton, Ottawa, St Louis, Islanders, Tampa and Montreal make up the top 8. What do all 8 of those teams have in common?

Quote:
But yeah its cool having a AHL roster chalk full of AHL vets and hasbeens. If we need to trade for a scrub bottom line winger or defenseman we can just trade 1st and 2nd round picks for them. We need a backup goalie? hey just sign Boucher or Leighton. Who cares about developing a prospect on the farm.
Yup sounds good to me
Yes, it is cool having a crap AHL roster when the NHL one is this stacked. How many NHL teams have an 27-or-under core like Giroux, Read, Voracek, Couturier, Schenn, Schenn, Simmonds, Coburn and Mesz without repeatedly picking high? Are there any?

Mate, when have we ever traded 1st round picks for scrubs except for the Eminger mistake? We've traded them for stars, for Pronger, for Timonen, for Hartnell. For genuine talent that helps the team straight away. Your idea of stocking the farm may have eventually worked (no guarantee) over a few years. Holmgren's way of trading picks took us from #30 to the Conf Finals in 8 months and we've not missed the play-offs since. Florida however have been picking high and stocking well for years and look how far it's got them.

I respect and appreciate your enthusiasm for a stocked system. I just don't agree it's necessary with the set-up we've got. When we need youth we go and sign Read. If we find ourselves with an ageing, weak squad then you'll notice at that point that we also have a lot of draft picks and prospects in the system. The Flyers always have what we need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
I think you're confusing what we expect from the organization. You say the Flyers do choose a quality NHL team over organizational depth.


We're saying they should have both.
But how...? Name me 3 teams who have a quality NHL team and strong organisational depth without extended periods of poor performance. Detroit? Sure. Let's look at the other teams who've made the play-offs for the last 5 years though...

Boston - Ranked 19th. They're as good on the ice with Chara as we'd be with Pronger.
Washington - Ranked 18th. Sucked for years when they were able to draft Ovechkin and Backstrom and build their team around it.
Pittsburgh - See above. It's a lot easier to keep hold of picks when you're handed generationals like Crosby and Malkin.
San Jose - Ranked 24th.

We've had one top-5 pick in a decade, and it was in the worst draft in years. If we'd tanked in Crosby's year then I guarantee we'd have a lot more prospects in the farm right now.


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02-11-2013, 08:30 AM
  #171
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Anyone have an NHL scouting report on Tomas Hyka and maybe Patrick Maroon? After the Flyers backup goalie and the devastation David Sloane caused in his six minute NHL career, those two have to be the most cited criticisms of Hopmgren around here.

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02-11-2013, 08:37 AM
  #172
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HF ranks both as 7.0, Hyka as a D prospect and Maroon as a C prospect.

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02-11-2013, 09:13 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
Draft picks are the most over-rated thing on HF by a country mile.
I agree whole-heartedly... to a point. In the cap era having cheap ELC/RFA talent to supplement your more expensive players is imperative to succeed.

Of course, Cooter/Giroux/Schenn/Read et al already fit that category for us, so the gnashing of teeth over not having a prospect pool still isn't warranted from that perspective.

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02-11-2013, 09:26 AM
  #174
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Holmgren is not a bad GM. He's also not a good one either. People are quick to pull up a list of moves he's made and pick through them. The problem with that is that it misses what he hasn't done, and it looks at things on a micro level. To me Holmgren has had 2 glaring issues as GM

1) He has done an overall fantastic job with our forward corp. He drafts great forwards, aqcuires great young forwards. However, holmgren has been an abject failure with the D. We have an OK D but are spending out the ears for it. And we have not developed or ever had a high end prospect outside of Sbisa.

2) On a micro level, a lot of the transactions have been great. But he is doing major overhauls every few years. The core keeps changing. On a macro level, what is the long term plan? Where is the patience? There seems to be a pretty clear lack of a big picture

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02-11-2013, 09:49 AM
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Holmgren is not a bad GM. He's also not a good one either. People are quick to pull up a list of moves he's made and pick through them. The problem with that is that it misses what he hasn't done, and it looks at things on a micro level. To me Holmgren has had 2 glaring issues as GM

1) He has done an overall fantastic job with our forward corp. He drafts great forwards, aqcuires great young forwards. However, holmgren has been an abject failure with the D. We have an OK D but are spending out the ears for it. And we have not developed or ever had a high end prospect outside of Sbisa.

2) On a micro level, a lot of the transactions have been great. But he is doing major overhauls every few years. The core keeps changing. On a macro level, what is the long term plan? Where is the patience? There seems to be a pretty clear lack of a big picture
I agree with #1, however I think he is a good GM and I don't agree with #2. I think the things pointed out in #2 show a clear indication that Homer is thinking big picture.

Let's just take the Richards/Carter scenario. He dealt two players who had long term contracts. You may look at that and think he was impatient and lacked big picture future plans. However, to me, these moves show the complete opposite. He dealt two established stars with long-term contracts to allow the team to get (even) younger and allow a guy like Giroux to develop into what he is now. This allowed money to sign a goalie and other peices to the puzzle. It is easy to point to things and claim they were impatient or questionable, but really what would this team look like right now without those deals? I know people hate this argument because I have made it before, but you don't make those deals that means you likely don't Bryz (I know this would make some people happy), no Couts, no Schenn, no Simmonds, no Voracek, maybe no Read, maybe no Talbot. Those are six to seven of the most important players on this team both now and long-term that I would rather have than Richards and Carter. Now, as I said there is no telling who would have filled int he roster, and perhaps it would be better, but it is just as likely that it would be worse. I fail to see his lack of patience and big picture thinking involved in this particular (and most drastic) overhaul which gave the Flyers the ability to develop a young core of players for the foreseeable future.

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