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Holzer over Schenn

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Old
02-11-2013, 03:57 AM
  #201
LegionOfDoom91
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Originally Posted by MoeMoney View Post
Yeah exactly, Shcenn still makes those awful plays that costs key goals. Flyer fans are the most stubborn people, don't think they will ever admit they lost a trade. JVR is fantastic and there's a reason he went #2 overall in a deep draft, just needed a change of scenery.
That was a bad play that lead to a goal. But since when does a bad play define a whole season for a player? If you actually watched the whole game and not highlights you would see that Schenn wasn't the only one who played like **** against Washington that night.

But anyway Schenn has been arguably our best defensemen this year. He's cut down his weight and improved on a lot of the things that plagued him in Toronto. He's been averaging over 20 minutes a night for us. Coaches don't award terrible players with that much ice time.

As for who won the trade personally I could care less. I'm happy with Schenn. You guys are happy with JVR. Both players were luxuries for each team and both needed a change of scenery. They are both playing well for their teams right now and to me that's all that really matters. And not that it really means anything but the 07 draft wasn't anything special when you compare it to recent drafts.

With that said good luck to you guys tomorrow and the rest of the season.


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02-11-2013, 04:51 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
That was a bad play that lead to a goal. But since when does a bad play define a whole season for a player? If you actually watched the whole game and not highlights you would see that Schenn wasn't the only one who played like **** against Washington that night.

But anyway Schenn has been arguably our best defensemen this year. He's cut down his weight and improved on a lot of the things that plagued him in Toronto. He's been averaging over 20 minutes a night for us. Coaches don't award terrible players with that much ice time.

As for who won the trade personally I could care less. I'm happy with Schenn. You guys are happy with JVR. Both players were luxuries for each team and both needed a change of scenery. They are both playing well for their teams right now and to me that's all that really matters. And not that it really means anything but the 07 draft wasn't anything special when you compare it to recent drafts.

With that said good luck to you guys tomorrow and the rest of the season.
Pretty much this. Looking forward to this new Leafs team vs Flyers tommorow, maybe this time we can actually make it competitive. Flyers always kick our ass!

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02-11-2013, 08:46 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by calcal798 View Post
Gunnar-Phaenuf
Gards-Holzer

Next years top four.
If he's healthy and wants to play, you could expect to see a

Ranger-Phaneuf
top line. Paul Ranger is a big key, if he comes back to the NHL and plays as he did previously.

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02-11-2013, 08:55 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
If he's healthy and wants to play, you could expect to see a

Ranger-Phaneuf
top line. Paul Ranger is a big key, if he comes back to the NHL and plays as he did previously.
Carlyle will not play Phanuef on his off-side any more.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the log-jam on the left side for the leafs.

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02-11-2013, 08:57 AM
  #205
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That JVR trade was pretty good move by Brian Birk. Already 12 games and 7 goals. Thought he was a huge draft bust.

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02-11-2013, 09:03 AM
  #206
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Carlyle will not play Phanuef on his off-side any more.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the log-jam on the left side for the leafs.
That is something Carlyle said, but i'm willing to bet he would try this pairing out. Ranger is the only D that would bring a package of size, skating, mobility, offence and physical play. He played on the top line in Tampa, put up alot of points and minutes, and to me would be the ideal partner for Phaneuf.

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02-11-2013, 09:10 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
That was a bad play that lead to a goal. But since when does a bad play define a whole season for a player? If you actually watched the whole game and not highlights you would see that Schenn wasn't the only one who played like **** against Washington that night.
I am not going to comment on Schenn here as I believe both teams got a good return on the deal but I will remind you this is Toronto where a single bad play will tarnish a player's reputation forever. Just look to Bryan McCabe, had an amazing career in TO, called by Brain Leeach the best defenseman who he ever played with, yet so many people always associate him with a bad play he made in a playoff series in Philly which resulted is a criticle goal against. No one remembers the bad pass that led to the mistake or the fact that the whole team played aweful that series or even how good McCabe had been in the games leading up to that play, just that play.

Ever since that play his play was magnified and every little mistake jumped on. By the time he was forced out of Toronto, many were convinced he was a useless defenseman which in my humble opinion was an utter load of BS. Schenn has been experiencing the same kind of criticism as McCabe in TO. It never got to the point that is did with McCabe, but it was headed in that direction. As right as you may be that Schenn is a good player, some people here will never believe it

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02-11-2013, 09:31 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
That was a bad play that lead to a goal. But since when does a bad play define a whole season for a player? If you actually watched the whole game and not highlights you would see that Schenn wasn't the only one who played like **** against Washington that night.

But anyway Schenn has been arguably our best defensemen this year. He's cut down his weight and improved on a lot of the things that plagued him in Toronto. He's been averaging over 20 minutes a night for us. Coaches don't award terrible players with that much ice time.

As for who won the trade personally I could care less. I'm happy with Schenn. You guys are happy with JVR. Both players were luxuries for each team and both needed a change of scenery. They are both playing well for their teams right now and to me that's all that really matters. And not that it really means anything but the 07 draft wasn't anything special when you compare it to recent drafts.

With that said good luck to you guys tomorrow and the rest of the season.
I don't evaluate Schenn based on 1 play or 1 game, but over his whole career. The fact is he made plays like that so many times as a Leaf I seriously was so glad to see him traded. I've seen him cough up the puck to Staal vs the Canes this year which lead to another goal, screen the Bryz on a few goals. He's making the same mistakes that made me dislike him as a Leaf. Wait until he does that for the 50th time, fans will turn on him like they did here.

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02-11-2013, 09:31 AM
  #209
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Holzer isn't better than Schenn's potential, and arguably he isn't better than Schenn NOW. Holzer has had a handful of good games and a few mediocre/stinky ones this year. It's going to take more than that to annoint him as a saviour for the Leafs blueline.

What I can say is that the Leafs are a better team with JVR + Holzer than they are with Schenn alone. The scoring depth that JVR provides for the team and the pretty strong defense from Holzer more than offset Schenn's physicality and shot blocking abilities. Offensively Schenn and Holzer are pretty much a wash except that Holzer has a better shot than Schenn (but that isn't saying much because it's not going to get him goals - the two this year are an aberration)

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02-11-2013, 09:34 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Guy Boucher View Post
Carlyle will not play Phanuef on his off-side any more.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the log-jam on the left side for the leafs.
I'm thinking Liles will be moved

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02-11-2013, 09:36 AM
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I'm thinking Liles will be moved
I'm predicting Gunnarson gets moved.

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02-11-2013, 09:39 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
If he's healthy and wants to play, you could expect to see a

Ranger-Phaneuf
top line. Paul Ranger is a big key, if he comes back to the NHL and plays as he did previously.
I just don't see the Ranger hype myself. The Marlies games I watched with Ranger looked like a player on the edge (success / failure) and more an offensively capable defender than a defensive one.

It is a great story though, and it sounds like he worked very hard to get himself ready for the season.

His age, 28, is not old for a NHL player, especially defender, so perhaps you can project improvement over his time in Tampa which wasn't bad from what I've heard. Mind you Kubina was a stud for Tampa's Cup and wasn't that well accepted in Toronto.

I'd just consider Ranger another depth defender until proven otherwise.

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02-11-2013, 09:49 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I just don't see the Ranger hype myself. The Marlies games I watched with Ranger looked like a player on the edge (success / failure) and more an offensively capable defender than a defensive one.

It is a great story though, and it sounds like he worked very hard to get himself ready for the season.

His age, 28, is not old for a NHL player, especially defender, so perhaps you can project improvement over his time in Tampa which wasn't bad from what I've heard. Mind you Kubina was a stud for Tampa's Cup and wasn't that well accepted in Toronto.

I'd just consider Ranger another depth defender until proven otherwise.
Pretty much watched every Marlies game before the lockout and Ranger was leaps and bounds better than Holzer and Fraser offensively and defensively. If he choses to play with the Leafs he will be in our top 4.

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02-11-2013, 09:51 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
That was a bad play that lead to a goal. But since when does a bad play define a whole season for a player? If you actually watched the whole game and not highlights you would see that Schenn wasn't the only one who played like **** against Washington that night.

But anyway Schenn has been arguably our best defensemen this year. He's cut down his weight and improved on a lot of the things that plagued him in Toronto. He's been averaging over 20 minutes a night for us. Coaches don't award terrible players with that much ice time.

As for who won the trade personally I could care less. I'm happy with Schenn. You guys are happy with JVR. Both players were luxuries for each team and both needed a change of scenery. They are both playing well for their teams right now and to me that's all that really matters. And not that it really means anything but the 07 draft wasn't anything special when you compare it to recent drafts.

With that said good luck to you guys tomorrow and the rest of the season.
Well said. People get too caught up with trying to determine a winner and loser in a trade that they forget that a trade can benefit both teams. Just because JVR has been extremely serviceable to the Leafs doesn't mean that Schenn hasn't carried equal or significant importance to the Flyers. Both teams were able to trade from an area of strength to address an area of weakness and it seems to be working out well for both.

As for the actual topic - when Schenn was traded, I called it that Holzer could likely be the internal replacement for Schenn. He hasn't played that many NHL games but it's pretty great to see how much better he's gotten since that Caroline game. He's logging huge minutes now and playing with Phaneuf (and looks a lot better there than Kostka). Maybe it took some nerves to get him to settle down and perhaps he had a good discussion with Carlyle after that Caroline game because he really taken it to another level since then.

If Holzer keeps this up, he may not be our internal equivalent to Schenn. He may just turn out to be even better. He's shown a lot of good things but it's up to him to find consistency. To be clear, I'm not saying that he's as good as Schenn or will be better than Schenn, I'm saying that if his solid play of recent is a more accurate reflection of the kind of player that he can and will be, then he could turn out to be better than the Schenn that we got to see in Toronto.

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02-11-2013, 09:54 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by ldnk View Post
Holzer isn't better than Schenn's potential, and arguably he isn't better than Schenn NOW. Holzer has had a handful of good games and a few mediocre/stinky ones this year. It's going to take more than that to annoint him as a saviour for the Leafs blueline.

What I can say is that the Leafs are a better team with JVR + Holzer than they are with Schenn alone. The scoring depth that JVR provides for the team and the pretty strong defense from Holzer more than offset Schenn's physicality and shot blocking abilities. Offensively Schenn and Holzer are pretty much a wash except that Holzer has a better shot than Schenn (but that isn't saying much because it's not going to get him goals - the two this year are an aberration)
But you do also ignore that Schenn displayed probably the lowest competence on defense since Andy Wozniewski for long stretches over a four year period...

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02-11-2013, 09:55 AM
  #216
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My guess is Schenn is gonna be a monster tonight, he'll be the Schenn we were all hoping he would be and he'll erase Kessel and Bozak a couple times. Still, with that being said, I'd still make the trade today mainly because of our D depth.

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02-11-2013, 09:56 AM
  #217
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Originally Posted by G51 K81 View Post
Pretty much watched every Marlies game before the lockout and Ranger was leaps and bounds better than Holzer and Fraser offensively and defensively. If he choses to play with the Leafs he will be in our top 4.
That would be nice. I wouldn't expect it, AHL even during a lock-out isn't the NHL, but it would give the Leafs another asset they could deal.

Ranger wasn't a prospect, but a NHL player getting back into the game after 2 years away.

You can never have too many assets.

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02-11-2013, 09:57 AM
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But you do also ignore that Schenn displayed probably the lowest competence on defense since Andy Wozniewski for long stretches over a four year period...
Incorrect.

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02-11-2013, 10:00 AM
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My guess is Schenn is gonna be a monster tonight, he'll be the Schenn we were all hoping he would be and he'll erase Kessel and Bozak a couple times. Still, with that being said, I'd still make the trade today mainly because of our D depth.
Family should always come first.

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02-11-2013, 10:01 AM
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Not sure I follow...

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02-11-2013, 10:06 AM
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Not sure I follow...
I think I know exactly what Ulf is saying. He's saying that If Schenn is going to go after Kessel and Bozak, then his little brother better watch out because the Leafs have some of their own guys who may want to do some 'erasing' on Brayden.

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02-11-2013, 10:14 AM
  #222
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I think I know exactly what Ulf is saying. He's saying that If Schenn is going to go after Kessel and Bozak, then his little brother better watch out because the Leafs have some of their own guys who may want to do some 'erasing' on Brayden.
Speaking of Brayden, Kadri has outplayed him by a mile. Surprised there isn't some thread like Kadri > B. Schenn. Was in the Flyers GT thread the other day and fans were laying into Brayden about playing "another" bad game.

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02-11-2013, 10:16 AM
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Speaking of Brayden, Kadri has outplayed him by a mile. Surprised there isn't some thread like Kadri > B. Schenn. Was in the Flyers GT thread the other day and fans were laying into Brayden about playing "another" bad game.
So you're saying there are impatient fans everywhere?

I'd still take OEL in that draft over Schenn and Kadri.

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02-11-2013, 10:17 AM
  #224
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I just don't see the Ranger hype myself. The Marlies games I watched with Ranger looked like a player on the edge (success / failure) and more an offensively capable defender than a defensive one.

It is a great story though, and it sounds like he worked very hard to get himself ready for the season.

His age, 28, is not old for a NHL player, especially defender, so perhaps you can project improvement over his time in Tampa which wasn't bad from what I've heard. Mind you Kubina was a stud for Tampa's Cup and wasn't that well accepted in Toronto.

I'd just consider Ranger another depth defender until proven otherwise.
You're not wrong. I only watched a few games with Ranger on the marlies so I cant speak to how well he is playing now. What I do know, is when he came to camp, Eakins and Nonis were raving about how well he could skate for a bigger guy, and being in great shape. I have a bias though. I watched Ranger, with Brandon Nolan, Horton and Ben Eager for the Generals many years ago. The wild card for me is if Ranger decided to play in the NHL next year, and can play the same way he did before leaving, it will be a huge boost to the Leafs blueline.

IMHO Gunnar is the one who gets traded, or Komisarek in a deal where cap is shared.

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02-11-2013, 10:19 AM
  #225
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Originally Posted by G51 K81 View Post
Speaking of Brayden, Kadri has outplayed him by a mile. Surprised there isn't some thread like Kadri > B. Schenn. Was in the Flyers GT thread the other day and fans were laying into Brayden about playing "another" bad game.
Keep in mind that if Brayden is playing in the Flyers top 6, he's likely facing tougher competition from the opposing team. But whatever the case is, I'm glad we have enough forwards that don't require the Leafs to force Kadri (and Frattin) in a top 6 role too soon. I'm even happier that we have a coach that recognizes how to use their talents efficiently.

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