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Old
02-10-2013, 11:36 PM
  #26
Mickey Redmond
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Abdelkader, Miller and Cleary are the first to come to mind. Cleary is basically just deadweight out there, never really contributes anything. Abdelkader and Miller really just don't have NHL level talent. Abdelkader may make a good 4th line energy type player, but he doesn't have the skill to be playing with the top 9 of most teams, and the fact we are having to use him for such a role as well as on the pp is really frustrating.

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02-11-2013, 12:24 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey Redmond View Post
Abdelkader, Miller and Cleary are the first to come to mind. Cleary is basically just deadweight out there, never really contributes anything. Abdelkader and Miller really just don't have NHL level talent. Abdelkader may make a good 4th line energy type player, but he doesn't have the skill to be playing with the top 9 of most teams, and the fact we are having to use him for such a role as well as on the pp is really frustrating.
Abdelkader is not getting any real time on the PP, Tootoo, Miller and he have all averaged less than 20 seconds on the PP a game, and less than 4 minutes total.

Cleary on the other hand is getting 3 minutes a game on the PP, for a total just under 36 minutes.

I have no problem keeping Abdelkader as long as he's playing in the bottom 6. He's our leading hitter, he is good on draws, and can kill penalties.

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02-11-2013, 03:24 AM
  #28
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I for one, don't think your an idiot.
I have hated the Franzen deal from day one, always thought that he got the deal because of Hank and Lidstrom.
How many potential 30 goalscoring wingers can you get for around $3.955m or less?

Pavelski? Not leaving SJ.
Horton?
Giroux? He'll get a nice raise for his next contract
Gagne?
Penner?
Stewart?
Vrbata?

All I'm saying is, you aren't going to get better replacements to play in the top 6 and pot 25-30 goals on a consistent basis. The players listed above are either not leaving their team any time soon or are over the hill.

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02-11-2013, 07:32 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by ProPAIN View Post
How many potential 30 goalscoring wingers can you get for around $3.955m or less?

Pavelski? Not leaving SJ.
Horton?
Giroux? He'll get a nice raise for his next contract
Gagne?
Penner?
Stewart?
Vrbata?

All I'm saying is, you aren't going to get better replacements to play in the top 6 and pot 25-30 goals on a consistent basis. The players listed above are either not leaving their team any time soon or are over the hill.
Well if Brunner, Tatar, or Nyquist can score some goals, there's your replacement right there. Hell, Hudler could have done that too, and at least he gives 100% on every shift.

Franzen, while on a decent-to-good contract, is an infuriating player to watch... and if he's that bad to watch, imagine what he's like to coach. Babcock wants 100% effort from his guys from top to bottom, every game, every shift.

Franzen doesn't do that.

Not only that, but he benefits from his linemates more than Hudler EVER did. If Brunner pots 30 projected goals, Franzen is expendable.

(Note: Samuelsson was brought in to replace Hudler, so before anyone goes bleating about that being Brunner's role, just stop.)

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02-11-2013, 09:11 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Meditating Guru View Post
Well if Brunner, Tatar, or Nyquist can score some goals, there's your replacement right there. Hell, Hudler could have done that too, and at least he gives 100% on every shift.
If Brunner, Tatar or Nyquist score 30+ goals, we can take them into consideration. No problem with that. Can you honestly tell me they are capable of replacing Franzen right now?

Hudler never scored 30 goals in his NHL career. And 100% every shift? Please.

Quote:
Franzen, while on a decent-to-good contract, is an infuriating player to watch... and if he's that bad to watch, imagine what he's like to coach. Babcock wants 100% effort from his guys from top to bottom, every game, every shift.

Franzen doesn't do that.
Apart from Z and Datsyuk, I don't see 100% effort from every player, every shift. Yes, Franzen is lazy, but there is no way Hudler was any better. He never shot the puck and his sub-standard skating didn't help either.

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Not only that, but he benefits from his linemates more than Hudler EVER did. If Brunner pots 30 projected goals, Franzen is expendable.
I don't know how you measure the level of benefits from playing with Z or D. And you have a lot of hypotheticals in you statement (Brunner pots 30 goals and other players capable of replacing Franzen's production)

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02-11-2013, 09:36 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by ProPAIN View Post
If Brunner, Tatar or Nyquist score 30+ goals, we can take them into consideration. No problem with that. Can you honestly tell me they are capable of replacing Franzen right now?
No, I can't, but you can't also state with any certainty that Semin would score 30+ goals with the Wings.

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Hudler never scored 30 goals in his NHL career. And 100% every shift? Please.
You're right, Hudler's never scored 30 goals. Hulder also never got a decent shot in the top-6 with the Wings, so who knows what would have happened.

Hyperbole. Nobody actually gives 100% every shift, but not giving up on the play is close enough. I'm not sure that you actually watched Hudler, but just because he got knocked off the puck easier than Franzen (but just barely) doesn't mean he didn't make the effort every shift. How many times did you see Hudler just give up on a play, or simply coast around? I've seen Franzen do that probably a dozen times this year alone to the immediate detriment of the team.

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Apart from Z and Datsyuk, I don't see 100% effort from every player, every shift. Yes, Franzen is lazy, but there is no way Hudler was any better. He never shot the puck and his sub-standard skating didn't help either.
No, Hudler's skating speed didn't help him, but it's not like he was easy to take the puck from. Hell, if Hudler had shot the puck more than he did, the Wings would have a 40-goal scorer right now -- last year he shot at a 20% clip, and this year he's pushing 17%.

Quote:
I don't know how you measure the level of benefits from playing with Z or D. And you have a lot of hypotheticals in you statement (Brunner pots 30 goals and other players capable of replacing Franzen's production)
I'm not great with numbers, so asking me to quantify something as complex as "the statistical benefits of playing with Datsyuk and/or Zetterberg" might be better left to someone else.

Of course my statement is riddled with hypotheticals -- that's all we can work with at this point. You do have to admit, however, that it's very likely Nyquist, Tatar, and Brunner can replace the production of Franzen and Bertuzzi/Cleary in the top-6 quite easily.

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02-11-2013, 09:48 AM
  #32
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Guys this thread is about what bottom 6 forward gets traded away or waived.

And you are arguing about our top 6 players and who can replace them?

Best players in "ROUGH" order

Datsyuk and Zetterberg
Filppula
Brunner
Franzen
Helm
Nyquist-Tatar

(none of these guys should be traded)

Lets focus on the "plugs" or who we think are plugs or who still has potential

Who do you like better?

Miller or Eaves?
Emmerton or Miller?
etc etc
Discuss

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02-11-2013, 09:54 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
Guys this thread is about what bottom 6 forward gets traded away or waived.

And you are arguing about our top 6 players and who can replace them?

Best players in "ROUGH" order

Datsyuk and Zetterberg
Filppula
Brunner
Franzen
Helm
Nyquist-Tatar

(none of these guys should be traded)

Lets focus on the "plugs" or who we think are plugs or who still has potential

Who do you like better?

Miller or Eaves?
Emmerton or Miller?
etc etc
Discuss
Well technically this thread is about forwards in general, but OP made some assumptions that won't necessarily jibe with the requested opinions, e.g. Franzen being a lock and untouchable.

Bottom-6? Keep Abdelkader for some grit on the 4th line, and Miller for rotational duties; I'd keep Mursak around one more year just to see if he can be healthy, but if not, drop him. Keep Helm (obviously) and Tootoo, and put Bertuzzi with them. Blow the rest up. Basically what I posted with my Capgeek lineup.

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Old
02-11-2013, 10:12 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
Guys this thread is about what bottom 6 forward gets traded away or waived.

And you are arguing about our top 6 players and who can replace them?

Best players in "ROUGH" order

Datsyuk and Zetterberg
Filppula
Brunner
Franzen
Helm
Nyquist-Tatar

(none of these guys should be traded)

Lets focus on the "plugs" or who we think are plugs or who still has potential

Who do you like better?

Miller or Eaves?
Emmerton or Miller?
etc etc
Discuss
You're right. I shouldn't be arguing with someone who thinks Hudler can be a 40 goal scorer if he shoots more and never got a fair shot at the top 6

As for the bottom 6 I want to completely revamp it with solid utility players we have at our disposal. **** loyalty and reputation.

Tatar - Helm - Tootoo

Speed, energy, a bit of grit and add some scoring touch with Tatar. Tootoo had his best shift with Helm where they hit everything that moved.

Abdelkader - Sheahan - Mursak

I'd even propose rotating Andersson and Ferraro in there. Although Miller and Eaves are good utility players, they are a dime a dozen. Mursak and Ferraro can replace Eaves (maybe not on the shot-blocking front, but similar). Andersson can rotate with Abdelkader. Sheahan can play PK, 4th line minutes and be a decent screen on the 2nd PP unit.

The players that go are Bert, Sammy, Emmerton, Cleary, Eaves and Miller.

Bert, Sammy and Cleary have nothing left to offer. Eaves and Miller are expendable. Emmerton is an average to below average bottom 6 center who doesn't have much of an upside. Bite the bullet and let him go in a trade or something.

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02-11-2013, 10:17 AM
  #35
vannzee
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I think that Eaves (hasn't looked the same since the concussion, but hasn't played a lot), and Emmerton (I am just not sure that players of his type are not a dime a dozen) are easily replacable.

I like Drew Miller quite a bit but there is just no upside there for him to get a roster spot over Nyquist, Tatar, Andersson, Sheahan and Mursak. I would like to see an intragrating of some of our young talent. Tatar has show great strides so far this year, and I think if Nyquist is not seeing quality minutes on the NHL roster next year then I will be disappointed. I think Mursak has sealed his lot with his injuries and his window is now almost closed. Andersson is another spare part, who could fit. Sheahan hasn't impressed in G.R and probably a year away for Jurco.

Cleary will be gone next season.

We will know more following the trade deadline.

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Old
02-11-2013, 10:20 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by vannzee View Post
I think that Eaves (hasn't looked the same since the concussion, but hasn't played a lot), and Emmerton (I am just not sure that players of his type are not a dime a dozen) are easily replacable.

I like Drew Miller quite a bit but there is just no upside there for him to get a roster spot over Nyquist, Tatar, Andersson, Sheahan and Mursak. I would like to see an intragrating of some of our young talent. Tatar has show great strides so far this year, and I think if Nyquist is not seeing quality minutes on the NHL roster next year then I will be disappointed. I think Mursak has sealed his lot with his injuries and his window is now almost closed. Andersson is another spare part, who could fit. Sheahan hasn't impressed in G.R and probably a year away for Jurco.

Cleary will be gone next season.

We will know more following the trade deadline.
Have we been watching the same Griffins? Sheahan has looked pretty damn impressive for what is essentially his rookie season.

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02-11-2013, 10:25 AM
  #37
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I suppose I should clarify...he hasn't impressed to a level where I would expect him to be in the NHL from the get go next year.

But I really feel this thread is premature, you are going to see some trades come the deadline and the idea that we won't be adding a free agent at the forward spot come summer would be unlikely.

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02-11-2013, 10:31 AM
  #38
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1. Datsyuk (Elite)
2. Zetterberg (Elite)
3. Franzen (Top six)
4. Filppula (Slowed down by injuries, but still key. Legit top 6)
5. Helm -- (Speed makes him very important. Wonder how long before injuries hamper that speed)
6. Brunner (Has to keep producing. If he got the Hudler treatment, we'd have sent him to the AHL by now)
7. Bertuzzi (Size, top six ability at times)
8. Abdelkader (Hitting, PK, faceoffs)
9. Cleary (PK, grit, loyalty, more than anything)
10. Sammy -- (righthand shot, size, skating [questionable at this point])
11. Tootoo -- (speeed, hitting, fighting -- He's in barring problems)
12. Miller -- (PK experience, skating ability, overall smarts - could lose his spot if he has many games like Sunday's)
-------That's Your Lineup------------------
13- Emmerton - (Because he's a center who can skate at an NHL level, he will remain important to this team -- especially if we continue with the Flip-On-Wing lineup and there are no trades for a veteran center)
-------Battle For Final Spot----------------
14, Eaves - (If this guy was healthy, he's a perfect mate for Helm and the PK. But he's never healthy. In limited action, he looked like a guy who hasn't played hockey in a year..He plays the kind of game that's tough on a body. A small body. And his body, like Cleary's, is wearing down. He used to be a good skater. He didn't look good in his action this year. Sometimes, the war kills its warriors)
15. Mursak -- (Has speed and a good [right hand] shot and he battles. But he's small and hurt all the time).

I'm a big Mursak fan. I don't know if Babcock is. The Wings are a loyal team. But I don't much upside in keeping Eaves around at this point. He's been hurt forever, it seems. And life goes on.
So my guess is that they keep Mursak over Eaves for the final spot. Both are hurt a lot. But Eaves' game has suffered because of his injuries. Mursak still has fresh legs.
---------------------------------------------------
Tatar, Nyquist, Anderson
Only when there are injuries. We know how this team operates.
-----------------------------------------------------------
So, when healthy, here are Babcock's lines:
Franzen Zetterberg Brunner
Flip Datsyuk Bertuzzi
Cleary Helm Samuelsson
Miller Abdelkader Tootoo

Then watch for Sammy and Bert to flip.
--------------------------------------
My lineup with Holland's top 14 forwards

Franzen Zetterberg Sammy
Flip Datsyuk Brunner
Bertuzzi Helm Tootoo
Cleary Abs Mursak
---------------------------
My lines, using prospects and cutting the crap players I don't like:

Franzen Zetterberg Brunner
Flip Datsyuk Tootoo
Tatar Helm Mursak
Nyquist Abdelkader Bertuzzi

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02-11-2013, 10:32 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by lazerbullet View Post
Anderson should get a good look as 4C. But that won't happen.
Andersson is too slow for center

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02-11-2013, 11:43 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
1. Datsyuk (Elite)
2. Zetterberg (Elite)
3. Franzen (Top six)
4. Filppula (Slowed down by injuries, but still key. Legit top 6)
5. Helm -- (Speed makes him very important. Wonder how long before injuries hamper that speed)
6. Brunner (Has to keep producing. If he got the Hudler treatment, we'd have sent him to the AHL by now)
7. Bertuzzi (Size, top six ability at times)
8. Abdelkader (Hitting, PK, faceoffs)
9. Cleary (PK, grit, loyalty, more than anything)
10. Sammy -- (righthand shot, size, skating [questionable at this point])
11. Tootoo -- (speeed, hitting, fighting -- He's in barring problems)
12. Miller -- (PK experience, skating ability, overall smarts - could lose his spot if he has many games like Sunday's)
-------That's Your Lineup------------------
13- Emmerton - (Because he's a center who can skate at an NHL level, he will remain important to this team -- especially if we continue with the Flip-On-Wing lineup and there are no trades for a veteran center)
-------Battle For Final Spot----------------
14, Eaves - (If this guy was healthy, he's a perfect mate for Helm and the PK. But he's never healthy. In limited action, he looked like a guy who hasn't played hockey in a year..He plays the kind of game that's tough on a body. A small body. And his body, like Cleary's, is wearing down. He used to be a good skater. He didn't look good in his action this year. Sometimes, the war kills its warriors)
15. Mursak -- (Has speed and a good [right hand] shot and he battles. But he's small and hurt all the time).

I'm a big Mursak fan. I don't know if Babcock is. The Wings are a loyal team. But I don't much upside in keeping Eaves around at this point. He's been hurt forever, it seems. And life goes on.
So my guess is that they keep Mursak over Eaves for the final spot. Both are hurt a lot. But Eaves' game has suffered because of his injuries. Mursak still has fresh legs.
---------------------------------------------------
Tatar, Nyquist, Anderson
Only when there are injuries. We know how this team operates.
-----------------------------------------------------------
So, when healthy, here are Babcock's lines:
Franzen Zetterberg Brunner
Flip Datsyuk Bertuzzi
Cleary Helm Samuelsson
Miller Abdelkader Tootoo

Then watch for Sammy and Bert to flip.
--------------------------------------
My lineup with Holland's top 14 forwards

Franzen Zetterberg Sammy
Flip Datsyuk Brunner
Bertuzzi Helm Tootoo
Cleary Abs Mursak
---------------------------
My lines, using prospects and cutting the crap players I don't like:

Franzen Zetterberg Brunner
Flip Datsyuk Tootoo
Tatar Helm Mursak
Nyquist Abdelkader Bertuzzi
I don't see Tootoo playing top 6 really. I'd give him a couple of shifts to spark that line and clear the garbage around Datsyuk and Filppula, but keeping Nyquist on the 4th line is just a waste.

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02-11-2013, 12:42 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by ProPAIN View Post
I don't see Tootoo playing top 6 really. I'd give him a couple of shifts to spark that line and clear the garbage around Datsyuk and Filppula, but keeping Nyquist on the 4th line is just a waste.
If Jordin Tootoo is consistently playing in your top 6, you might as well gut the team because you have some serious problems.

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02-11-2013, 12:56 PM
  #42
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My best guess/what I'm hoping for:

Franzen-Zetterberg-Brunner
Filppula-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi
Nyquist-Helm-Tatar
Emmerton-Abdelkader-Tootoo
Andersson

Gives us 3 solid scoring lines. Miller is expendable, so are Eaves and Mursak (I like both but neither can stay healthy). Cleary needs to go.

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02-11-2013, 02:33 PM
  #43
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Samuelsson, Cleary and Nyquist.


Last edited by gretskidoo: 02-11-2013 at 03:21 PM.
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02-11-2013, 02:40 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
If Jordin Tootoo is consistently playing in your top 6, you might as well gut the team because you have some serious problems.

Tootoo, because of his skating and hitting alone, can skate alongside two top sixers and be productive.

He could easily score 15 goals without powerplay time (and stop and think about what that means) while giving defenseman something to worry about other than Datsyuk's hands.

Tootoo is a pretty skilled hockey player. He's got a good shot. And he's got a righthanded shot.

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02-11-2013, 02:43 PM
  #45
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I don't see Tootoo playing top 6 really. I'd give him a couple of shifts to spark that line and clear the garbage around Datsyuk and Filppula, but keeping Nyquist on the 4th line is just a waste.
I don't see lines 3 and 4 as the third and fourth line.

More as two third lines.

guys like Nyquist and Tatar would get 2nd unit PP time to help get them up to 12-13 minutes a night...

At this stage of their careers, 12-13 minutes a night is far more important than 20 minutes in the AHL

But seriously, this scenario isn't happening anyway, so it's not worth arguing.

When guys are healthy, Tatar and Nyquist are in the AHL

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02-11-2013, 03:41 PM
  #46
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Mursak is the odd man out. He is useful as a puck carrier to gain the zone, but that is negated by how easily he is knocked off the puck. Besides we have another good right handed shot in Tootoo now, that is actually a good point. He could chip in 10+, Tie Domi style.

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02-11-2013, 03:57 PM
  #47
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Mursak is the odd man out. He is useful as a puck carrier to gain the zone, but that is negated by how easily he is knocked off the puck. Besides we have another good right handed shot in Tootoo now, that is actually a good point. He could chip in 10+, Tie Domi style.
I think it comes down to Mursak or Eaves.

At this point, I think it goes to Mursak.

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02-11-2013, 03:58 PM
  #48
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Y'all hoping that Cleary is going to be the "odd man out" in any respect are crazy. No way he'll be waived or traded. We'll be lucky if he's even benched.

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02-11-2013, 03:58 PM
  #49
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My best guess/what I'm hoping for:

Franzen-Zetterberg-Brunner
Filppula-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi
Nyquist-Helm-Tatar
Emmerton-Abdelkader-Tootoo
Andersson

Gives us 3 solid scoring lines. Miller is expendable, so are Eaves and Mursak (I like both but neither can stay healthy). Cleary needs to go.
The Datsyuk line doesnt have a) anyone who shoots and b) right hand shot

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02-11-2013, 04:03 PM
  #50
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You're right, Hudler's never scored 30 goals. Hulder also never got a decent shot in the top-6 with the Wings, so who knows what would have happened.
Hudler was in the top 6 for almost all of last season. So I don't know how you can say he never got a decent shot in the top 6,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meditating Guru View Post
(Note: Samuelsson was brought in to replace Hudler, so before anyone goes bleating about that being Brunner's role, just stop.)
I also don't know why you are so adamant that Samuelsson was brought in to replace him. When Brunner was signed both Holland and Babcock said he'd be playing in the top 6 right out of training camp. Samuelsson was brought in to be a depth guy that could play on the 2nd powerplay unit and fill in on the top 6 in case of injuries.

Since Hudler was a top 6 guy last year, I think its pretty clear that Brunner is his replacement not Sammy.

I don't think there is any chance Franzen gets bought out unless he has a terrible year or in the off-chance the Wings trade him for a better top 6 forward or a top pairing defenceman. I wouldn't bet on either happening.


Last edited by FlashyG: 02-11-2013 at 09:15 PM.
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