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The Armchair GM Thread - Part XXXII - Kessel Run Edition

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Old
02-10-2013, 10:00 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
So what's the deal with O'reilly?

Why we no offer sheet him?
We have 800k in cap space. That's why.

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02-10-2013, 10:02 PM
  #277
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We have 800k in cap space. That's why.
Also offersheets more than usually never work out.

I'm pretty sure ROR signs an OS and Colorado matches. It might not be about money at this point, ROR might want to play elsewhere, no one knows.

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02-10-2013, 10:05 PM
  #278
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Also offersheets more than usually never work out.

I'm pretty sure ROR signs an OS and Colorado matches. It might not be about money at this point, ROR might want to play elsewhere, no one knows.
GMs also don't appreciate it when other teams send offer sheets to their players.
Weber wont be traded from Nashville to Philly because of that.

Why burn a bridge when you know that the other team will match the offer?

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02-10-2013, 10:48 PM
  #279
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Daniel was healthy and no-showed the SCF. He gets paid $6.1M and is expected to be a leader. Where did he go?
That depends on what you think 'no-show' is. For a guy playing without a healthy center and a non-existant PP, 4 points in 7 games is right around where you'd expect, if not even more. I have no doubts that was not the Sedins at their best. Nowhere close.

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02-10-2013, 11:27 PM
  #280
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Excuses, excuses. The Sedins were horrible in those playoffs. They were consistently disappointing offensively (minus the SJ series which skewed their stats) and were shockingly bad defensively.
I like how you continue to mention that the SJ series skewed their stats, like some how performing at an elite level in the Western Conference Final doesn't count.

To try and say that "The Sedins were horrible in those playoffs" is a complete joke. If you take a look at the star players that made the conference finals last year, the numbers the Sedins posted in 10-11 compare very well.

Dustin Brown - 20 games / 20 points
Anze Kopitar - 20 games / 20 points
Iyla Kovalchuk - 23 games / 19 points
Zach Parise - 24 games / 15 points
Brad Richards - 20 games / 15 points
Marion Gaborik - 20 games / 11 points
Antoine Vermette - 16 games / 10 points
Shane Doan - 16 games / 9 points

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02-10-2013, 11:31 PM
  #281
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How long until TBL decide they want a solid goalie to take a real shot at things this year and going forward?

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02-10-2013, 11:32 PM
  #282
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How long until TBL decide they want a solid goalie to take a real shot at things this year and going forward?
They won't. They'll take the Philly 2010 route and hope to just outscore all their problems.

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02-10-2013, 11:39 PM
  #283
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Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Let's NOT go out and get a top prospect. A bunch of mediocre prospects will do.

Haha. Every prospect has a chance to become better. Johansen is struggling right now. Maybe he doesn't become that 1st line C he was projected to be? Perhaps Shore does? I know the likelihood is greater with Johansen, but there's not guarantee. And when there are no assurances, I'd rather hedge my bets and get more quantity coming back.


Besides, Johansen doesn't even enter the discussion if everything is going great for him. He's only being discussed right now because his development has stalled/gotten off track.

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02-10-2013, 11:42 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Haha. Every prospect has a chance to become better. Johansen is struggling right now. Maybe he doesn't become that 1st line C he was projected to be? Perhaps Shore does? I know the likelihood is greater with Johansen, but there's not guarantee. And when there are no assurances, I'd rather hedge my bets and get more quantity coming back.


Besides, Johansen doesn't even enter the discussion if everything is going great for him. He's only being discussed right now because his development has stalled/gotten off track.
As we have learned from Toronto fans when discussing the value of Kadri

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02-10-2013, 11:44 PM
  #285
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I strongly disagree with that. Linden was the heart and soul of this team. You never see the Sedins play with the kind of clutch and passion that Linden did, especially in the playoffs.
I like Linden but the best thing he did for the orgainzation after 94 was get traded. We got McCabe, Bertuzzi (and Rutuu). McCabe plus first (nobody) got Henrik Sedin. Basically Bertuzzi got Luongo. So maybe we can agree that your Luongo, and our captain Henrik came from Linden and he should be appauded for that. It is unfortuate that Trevor's career plateaued then regressed at such a young age. I will never understand what happened to him hockey player wise. To go from a Canadian Olymipian to a scrub in a couple years. Thank God the Sedins just kept on improving to become elite players. Trevor while playing with the Canucks helped them be a good team for about 4 year's with the 94 Cup run being the pinnicle Trevor's contribution by being traded is the gift that keeps on giving!! It gave up the West Coast Express Era, the Luongo and Sedin President Cup era, and will contribute to the Sedin/Schneider Stanley Cup Era.


Last edited by Catamarca Livin: 02-10-2013 at 11:47 PM. Reason: spelling and such
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02-11-2013, 12:00 AM
  #286
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Besides, Johansen doesn't even enter the discussion if everything is going great for him. He's only being discussed right now because his development has stalled/gotten off track.
Keep in mind that's also how we got Kassian.

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02-11-2013, 12:17 AM
  #287
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I like Linden but the best thing he did for the orgainzation after 94 was get traded. We got McCabe, Bertuzzi (and Rutuu). McCabe plus first (nobody) got Henrik Sedin. Basically Bertuzzi got Luongo. So maybe we can agree that your Luongo, and our captain Henrik came from Linden and he should be appauded for that. It is unfortuate that Trevor's career plateaued then regressed at such a young age. I will never understand what happened to him hockey player wise. To go from a Canadian Olymipian to a scrub in a couple years. Thank God the Sedins just kept on improving to become elite players. Trevor while playing with the Canucks helped them be a good team for about 4 year's with the 94 Cup run being the pinnicle Trevor's contribution by being traded is the gift that keeps on giving!! It gave up the West Coast Express Era, the Luongo and Sedin President Cup era, and will contribute to the Sedin/Schneider Stanley Cup Era.
well bertuzzi and spare parts became luongo and spare parts, so if you think about it, linden not only was a primary force behind 1994 (1/3 out of him, pavel, and mclean), but his trade was also directly responsible for half of our core for the 2011 run (2/4 out of the sedins, luongo, and kesler).

and furthermore, he and the guy he was traded for (assuming it's henrik and not daniel) will soon have combined to scored more points in this uniform than any two other guys in franchise history. <3 <3 <3

and the more i think about it, the more crazy that trade seems. this is what those guys achieved after they were traded for linden or traded for guys linden was traded for:

bertuzzi, 1st team all-star
mccabe, 2nd team all-star
henrik, 1st team all-star (x2) + hart + art ross/daniel, 1st team all-star + 2nd team all-star + hart runner up + art ross
luongo, 2nd team all-star + hart runner up + jennings

thinking about it this way, which i am right now for the first time, i think i'm ready to make peace with messier/keenan.

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02-11-2013, 12:17 AM
  #288
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Keep in mind that's also how we got Kassian.

...And Kassian isn't guaranteed to be a 1st liner either. The point is, these are _all_ prospects we are talking about here. Johansen is a prospect. Shore is a prospect. As is Bjugstad, not matter how glowingly he is being talked about. Development is a huge factor with every one of these pieces involved. I wouldn't assume Johansen is going to develop better than another prospect... it's not a given.

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02-11-2013, 12:37 AM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
...And Kassian isn't guaranteed to be a 1st liner either. The point is, these are _all_ prospects we are talking about here. Johansen is a prospect. Shore is a prospect. As is Bjugstad, not matter how glowingly he is being talked about. Development is a huge factor with every one of these pieces involved. I wouldn't assume Johansen is going to develop better than another prospect... it's not a given.
Kassian isn't guaranteed to be a first liner, but he is an example of someone who had faltered in their development and now appears to be back on track.

You're right, there are no guarantees with prospects, but I'll take the blue chipper who temporary faltered in development over two lesser prospects. At this point, with our team and prospect funnel, I think we need the highest quality/upside possible over multiple lesser pieces. Using the example provided, I'd take Johansen over Shore+1st (although I would love to get Florida's first, I think they will see some serious regression this year.)

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02-11-2013, 03:27 AM
  #290
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Kassian isn't guaranteed to be a first liner, but he is an example of someone who had faltered in their development and now appears to be back on track.

You're right, there are no guarantees with prospects, but I'll take the blue chipper who temporary faltered in development over two lesser prospects. At this point, with our team and prospect funnel, I think we need the highest quality/upside possible over multiple lesser pieces. Using the example provided, I'd take Johansen over Shore+1st (although I would love to get Florida's first, I think they will see some serious regression this year.)


In a vacuum, I'd probably take Johansen too, but the disproportionate value placed on Johansen by CLB would likely result in less overall value returned to the Canucks. Maybe that's more clear? And to be clear, I don't consider Johansen to be blue chip either.


It's what happens with these types of franchise centric picks. The draft no longer matters, but the organization remembers where they picked said player. How much they wanted to invest in said player. So that skews value.


With the nature of prospects being what they are, I'm in the Shore + 1st camp. If a player like Bjugstad can be traded 19th overall, and this is a strong draft, then I'm inclined to give the Canucks the chance to draft their own version of Bjugstad, so to speak. Add that type of prospect to a Shore/Petrovic, and I'm liking the overall package instead of banking on just Johansen to get back on track, but that's me.

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02-11-2013, 04:15 AM
  #291
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Sociopath: A person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

They are never wrong. They never feel guilt. They can never apologize. Even if shown proof that they were wrong, they will refuse to apologize and instead go on the attack.
Anyways. I think Johansen would be an excellent addition although I believe that the Jackets are ready to give up on him.

I'd be more than willing to offer up Gaunce + 1st but I doubt that gets it done.

If it's Schneider, they'd have to add.

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02-11-2013, 04:17 AM
  #292
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In a vacuum, I'd probably take Johansen too, but the disproportionate value placed on Johansen by CLB would likely result in less overall value returned to the Canucks. Maybe that's more clear? And to be clear, I don't consider Johansen to be blue chip either.


It's what happens with these types of franchise centric picks. The draft no longer matters, but the organization remembers where they picked said player. How much they wanted to invest in said player. So that skews value.


With the nature of prospects being what they are, I'm in the Shore + 1st camp. If a player like Bjugstad can be traded 19th overall, and this is a strong draft, then I'm inclined to give the Canucks the chance to draft their own version of Bjugstad, so to speak. Add that type of prospect to a Shore/Petrovic, and I'm liking the overall package instead of banking on just Johansen to get back on track, but that's me.
You make a solid argument.

I personally think we can't really go wrong either way but I'd be more inclined to take a shot at a guy like Johansen solely because I do believe he's a blue chip prospect.

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02-11-2013, 04:18 AM
  #293
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Anyways. I think Johansen would be an excellent addition although I believe that the Jackets are ready to give up on him.

I'd be more than willing to offer up Gaunce + 1st but I doubt that gets it done.

If it's Schneider, they'd have to add.
I'm not sold on trading Gaunce for Johansen, especially with that 1st being valuable with this year's draft class being pretty deep.

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02-11-2013, 05:46 AM
  #294
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Here's my take on this whole thing. Alot of the problems we have in the post season can be attributed to the coaching staff. How many times now have we seen teams throw 5 man units ( a lot of them being elite, if they aren't well then the Sedins do fine) against the Sedins? The same thing ends up happening, if we're losing or sometimes even if we aren't, we become very vulnerable to counter attacks. When our checkers go up against other teams units we tend to just contain them...so we don't exactly get the same offence out of those lines.

Start using the Sedins against the other teams top offensive players. Go power on power.

Why do this? Several things will happen:

1) The Sedins get away from defensive pairings and centers who's only real job is to stop them. With the penalties down, it isn't that hard to physically control the Sedins

2) This will force the Sedins to actually play some defence. The other teams top players won't be content containing the Sedins...they will save up energy to score them selves. The Sedins will get more opportunities in open ice on counter attacks as well which will only help us out. If they are cycling downlow they neutralize and frustrate the other teams top players

3) Opens up the second line/ third line to start playing offensively. Against most teams in the league our secondary scoring actually can hold their own defensively as well so this is low risk

I'm not sure if many people noticed this but after moving Burrows up with the Sedins Van has stopped matching the 3rd line with other teams top units. The Sedin line has started going up against the top units ( Parise/Koivu and Iginla/Tanguay) and a few things have happened. The top line controls the play down low thus hurting their top players and our secondary scoring can actually start playing offensively. We looked horrid offensively with Higgins/Burrows/Hansen playing shutdown. It simply puts too much pressure on the top line to produce

Hopefully AV continues to use this strategy even when Kesler returns
That is a rather intriguing observation. Granted, neither Minnesota or Calgary are playing particularly well, thus potentially hinging any proper analysis. But even so, the Sedins appeared their dominate selves the first time this season during both games. What I have noticed is teams unintentionally underestimate the Sedins. They border on possessing the best cycle game in the league, providing a significant advantage usually not afforded to the "power vs. power" match up.

One can only hope AV sees this.

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Daniel was healthy and no-showed the SCF. He gets paid $6.1M and is expected to be a leader. Where did he go?

If that was the Sedins at their best, then they're only going to get worse going forward. I see no need to re-sign them at similar or more dollars. I would be open to what timw33 suggested which is bringing them back for 2 years at $4M per, but that's about it.
Evidently, it was not their best, considering the plethora of injuries we endured, skewing productivity. Your disdain for the Sedins is never ending and equally illogical. What I find perplexing is you often refuse to fault Luongo. He may not have cost us the series but his play was no better than the Sedins.

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02-11-2013, 05:51 AM
  #295
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I would hold onto that first and see who's avaliable

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02-11-2013, 08:31 AM
  #296
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That is a rather intriguing observation. Granted, neither Minnesota or Calgary are playing particularly well, thus potentially hinging any proper analysis. But even so, the Sedins appeared their dominate selves the first time this season during both games. What I have noticed is teams unintentionally underestimate the Sedins. They border on possessing the best cycle game in the league, providing a significant advantage usually not afforded to the "power vs. power" match up.

One can only hope AV sees this.



Evidently, it was not their best, considering the plethora of injuries we endured, skewing productivity. Your disdain for the Sedins is never ending and equally illogical. What I find perplexing is you often refuse to fault Luongo. He may not have cost us the series but his play was no better than the Sedins.
Actually his play was miles better than the Sedins. Luongo won us 3 games, two of them by a 1-0 score. That's like the equivalent of the Sedins putting up 4 points each which they didn't do.

And I have faulted Luongo when he's at fault, but when your offense puts up 8 goals in 7 games, while your goalie still gets you to game 7 on the back if 2 1-0 shutout wins, it's hard to blame the goalie equally as much as your star forwards who did nothing. And that is why I am more willing to hold on to someone like Luongo going forward and not the Sedins. IMO unless the Sedins win a cup or have a Linden like performance in the playoffs this year or next, we should be parting ways when their contracts are up barring a huge pay cut.

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02-11-2013, 09:11 AM
  #297
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They won't. They'll take the Philly 2010 route and hope to just outscore all their problems.
Ah, yes, we all remember the 2010 Stanley Cup champion Philadelphia Flyers and their subsequent playoff successes.

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02-11-2013, 09:32 AM
  #298
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Actually his play was miles better than the Sedins. Luongo won us 3 games, two of them by a 1-0 score. That's like the equivalent of the Sedins putting up 4 points each which they didn't do.

And I have faulted Luongo when he's at fault, but when your offense puts up 8 goals in 7 games, while your goalie still gets you to game 7 on the back if 2 1-0 shutout wins, it's hard to blame the goalie equally as much as your star forwards who did nothing. And that is why I am more willing to hold on to someone like Luongo going forward and not the Sedins. IMO unless the Sedins win a cup or have a Linden like performance in the playoffs this year or next, we should be parting ways when their contracts are up barring a huge pay cut.
Henrik was injured. So what did you expect Daniel do to? He and Burrows were all that remained of a decimated top six. Incidentally, Daniel did accumulate four points, thus by your own admission he was adequate under the circumstances.

Why is you only accredit the Sedins as faults for an offensive implosion? Injuries were rampant and Boston took advantage by practically ignoring Kesler, gambling on him being completely ineffective. Frankly, it was a fantastic coaching decision by Julien realize our Achilles' heel - injured depth. How can expect the Sedins to much of anything when they became the primary focus of a five man shutdown? Unlike with Nashville, we no longer had Kesler to punish such tactics. The Sedins do not play an aggressive physical game and that further proved advantageous to Boston.

Allowing the Sedins to walk is narrowminded and foolish. We haven't anyone to replace their productivity nor the impact they do provide. For someone so adamantly against becoming the Flames. You are advocating the route that will lead use directly to that very scenario.

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02-11-2013, 09:38 AM
  #299
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Looks like there's a pretty heavy discussion on the twins' next contract going on now. Too lazy to read back through, has the possiblity of them leaving for Sweden been discussed? That's my main fear. Not only are they under appreciated, they're openly mocked by fans/opponents/media and now with the barely punished Duncan Keith elbow, they have to seriously be thinking about their long term health (I know Henrik hasn't been concussed, but they're kind of a package deal). They have more money than they'll ever need, you have to think returning to Modo and finishing out their careers dominating the SEL and bringing some (enter SEL championship trophy name here)s home to Ornskoldsvik has to look a lot more attractive than getting Joe Thornton's finger dragged under their nose or getting punching bagged by Marchand again.

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02-11-2013, 11:00 AM
  #300
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It started with someone mentioning potentially signing Getzlaf and Perry in the same breath as the Sedins contracts expiring and hoping they'd take an unrealistic paycut to facilitate having all four players on the roster.

Someone pointed out that such a paycut (~35%) was unrealistic without a major drop off in performance, and as usual that's Pauser's queue to show up, intentionally misinterpret other posters ('If they won't take a 35% paycut we should let them walk for nothing because $12m is too much,' etc) and spend most of the next 40 hours responding to whoever will listen with the same paper-thin rationale he's had for years about why they're not as good as everyone thinks, not worth as much as everyone thinks, etc.

As for your post I don't know if the Sedins would leave the league because they feel underappreciated - to touch on another subject raised a few pages back, the consensus seems to be that they are "unbothered" by what goes on in the media which would make retiring due to a lack of praise pretty curious.

I could see them retiring due to a lack of accountability if they are targeted by cheap shots like the Keith elbow in the future, I suppose - but they seem to me like very driven players and I for one doubt they will retire until either they've accomplished what they want to, they can not longer play the game at a high level or until some injury that threatens one of their post-hockey quality of life comes into play.

Apparently they want to do one year deals from here on out though, so it will probably be an annual discussion for the rest of their career as Canucks.

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