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Malkin's Line Concerns Me Deeply. Panic!

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Old
02-11-2013, 11:56 AM
  #51
Flat Stanley
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Originally Posted by nhindian View Post
So you want to take the player who isn't good enough to play with Malkin and replace Kunitz with him, leaving Sid with two wingers that can't finish instead of 1. Good idea.

Malkin has to take some of the blame, since Boychuk fed him two great scoring chances that he didn't convert last night. Boychuk has to finish his breakaway too.

I cannot fathom the people saying that Malkin needs Kunitz to produce, as if having 40+g scorer already isn't enough talent. He won a Conn Smythe with freaking Talbot and Fedotenko.

Why isn't Sid allowed to play with talent?
So Malkin won the Conn Smythe with guys who were defensive forwards who got hot on the score sheet at the right time?

Yeah, and Colby Armstrong was once a good winger when he played with Sidney Crosby.

Point is, that was then, this is now. If you watch that 2nd line play, every time Malkin and Neal are on the ice, they puck always seems to be going the other way, just like when that line was Sullivan-Malkin-Neal, when we put Kunitz on that line, Malkin and Neal scored more at even strength. Sidney Crosby on the other hand, still played great with Sullivan and Dupuis. Zach Boychuk can play the same role as Sullivan for the time being, fast winger who can get Sid the puck.

Sid is also a better playmaker than Malkin, I think Crosby can set Boychuk up for better scoring chances than Malkin can.

And who said Crosby can't play with talent? Define talent, because I think Boychuk is a pretty talented hockey player, it's not all about scoring goals, speaking of that, Boychuk could have like 3 goals and 2 assists right now if it weren't for goalies making great saves, and if we actually converted on those chances, people would be singing a different tune about Boychuk. Remember that.

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02-11-2013, 12:00 PM
  #52
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The adoration of Crosby is nauseating. Crosby struggled in 2008-09 and people were saying he was not a simple player to play with, and didnít make his linemates better like Malkin. How dare anyone criticize Crosby and his conduct. Malkin will always be held to a different standard by the legion of Crosbyís followers. Star wingers have always been tried with Crosby first. Neal was going to be Crosbyís winger, not Malkinís, and I think Bylsma was itching to put Neal with Crosby once Crosby was in the lineup. Even though Crosby is not good on the right side and has no one-timer, Malkin goes to Siberia to the left point where he is a liability and is not able to shoot. Since Crosby likes to play on the half-wall. Bottom line: Malkin is a European and Bylsma is not comfortable coaching him, and many fans are not comfortable with him on the same level they are with 87. When Crosby isnít playing well, it is because timing isnít good. When Malkin isnít playing well, heís a flake with no heart. Malkin is a different player than Crosby. He can put up points without support, to maximize his talent he needs good wingers.

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02-11-2013, 12:04 PM
  #53
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The adoration of Crosby is nauseating. Crosby struggled in 2008-09 and people were saying he was not a simple player to play with, and didn’t make his linemates better like Malkin. How dare anyone criticize Crosby and his conduct. Malkin will always be held to a different standard by the legion of Crosby’s followers. Star wingers have always been tried with Crosby first. Neal was going to be Crosby’s winger, not Malkin’s, and I think Bylsma was itching to put Neal with Crosby once Crosby was in the lineup. Even though Crosby is not good on the right side and has no one-timer, Malkin goes to Siberia to the left point where he is a liability and is not able to shoot. Since Crosby likes to play on the half-wall. Bottom line: Malkin is a European and Bylsma is not comfortable coaching him, and many fans are not comfortable with him on the same level they are with 87. When Crosby isn’t playing well, it is because timing isn’t good. When Malkin isn’t playing well, he’s a flake with no heart. Malkin is a different player than Crosby. He can put up points without support, to maximize his talent he needs good wingers.

I think this whole post was put together with a Sailor Moon Decoder Ring, but the first sentence in particular is baffling. What adoration of Crosby is going on?

Also, and I can't stress this enough: I don't care if Crosby gets another cup. I don't care if Geno gets another cup. I don't care if Geno marries Neal and they run off to the KHL together. I want the PITTSBURGH PENGUINS to win. I'm so sick in tired of this fan base going all Twilight and forcing people into Team Crosby and Team Malkin.

Saying Crosby is a good player, or the best player, or whatever, isn't an insult to Malkin. Holy cow.

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02-11-2013, 12:16 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by SUBdrewgANS View Post
I would very much like to see

Boychuk - Crosby - Dupuis
Kunitz - Malkin - Neal
Cooke - Sutter - Kennedy
Glass - Vitale - Adams
So the solution to fixing Malkin's lines scoring issues is to then create the exact same issues for Crosby's line by making him play with Boychuk? At least Malkin's got Neal. You're leaving Pascal Dupuis as Crosby's only viable scoring option on his line.

The problem with the Penguins, as a whole, is the lack of that extra 1 or 2 skilled wingers. Guys who can create on their own, or at the very least, guys who know how to score when they're set up like Neal can.

Guys like Kunitz, Dupuis, Cooke, Boychuk, etc. can't create on their own, and they also don't have the pure finishing ability to simply play a game of getting open and waiting for a pass. That's the problem with our top six, not the actual current lines.

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02-11-2013, 12:24 PM
  #55
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I just dont want to see Dupuis in the top 6. Move Kunitz over to Malkin's wing. Play Sid with a mix of ET, DJ and Boychuk- maybe Sid will stop pulling up in the zone and looking for the late man, everytime. Whatever, just move Dupuis down.
KMN
BCJ
KCN
BCT
TCJ
Give em all looks.

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02-11-2013, 12:28 PM
  #56
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Dupuis put up his best numbers in YEARS last season while barely seeing any real ice time with Sid. Perhaps in order for us to get the best out of Dupper we should be playing him on a line/role that better suits his talents?

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02-11-2013, 12:29 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
So the solution to fixing Malkin's lines scoring issues is to then create the exact same issues for Crosby's line by making him play with Boychuk? At least Malkin's got Neal. You're leaving Pascal Dupuis as Crosby's only viable scoring option on his line.

The problem with the Penguins, as a whole, is the lack of that extra 1 or 2 skilled wingers. Guys who can create on their own, or at the very least, guys who know how to score when they're set up like Neal can.

Guys like Kunitz, Dupuis, Cooke, Boychuk, etc. can't create on their own, and they also don't have the pure finishing ability to simply play a game of getting open and waiting for a pass. That's the problem with our top six, not the actual current lines.
They could get away with it when we still had Staal, some people forget how he could take over a game, and while he didn't do it as often as we would have liked, the 3 C model made us a different team. Kennedy is absolute crap with Sutter, he needs to go. Kirk has been preaching it for a while now, it's time to build around Sid/Geno. We have get a true first line winger for Sid, we need a RH forward in the top 6. I've got no problem with Kunitz and Duper being third wheels on the top 2 lines, but we need an impact player.

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02-11-2013, 12:43 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
So the solution to fixing Malkin's lines scoring issues is to then create the exact same issues for Crosby's line by making him play with Boychuk? At least Malkin's got Neal. You're leaving Pascal Dupuis as Crosby's only viable scoring option on his line.

The problem with the Penguins, as a whole, is the lack of that extra 1 or 2 skilled wingers. Guys who can create on their own, or at the very least, guys who know how to score when they're set up like Neal can.

Guys like Kunitz, Dupuis, Cooke, Boychuk, etc. can't create on their own, and they also don't have the pure finishing ability to simply play a game of getting open and waiting for a pass. That's the problem with our top six, not the actual current lines.
I counted 4 occasions yesterday where Sid entered the zone on the right side, stopped up at the line, made a cross ice feed to a rushing Dupuis who was incapable of doing anything with it.

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02-11-2013, 12:48 PM
  #59
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It is what it is for now. Shero knew about this for years, and did absolutely nothing about it. Seriously, his entire plan this offseason was Parise? No plan B, C, or D? Jesus, I'd kill to have Sullivan back on Sid or Geno's wing (and also running the PP). Semin would look pretty good playing w/ Sid. Instead, Shero's sitting on a ton of cap space. But hey, look at all the prospects we have!

Also, Tyler Kenndy is pure garbage. Matt Cooke isn't much better. The only reason either of them were moderately successful is because of Staal. Shero obviously thought they were good enough to succeed with anyone centering them. Once again, he was wrong.

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02-11-2013, 12:49 PM
  #60
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I'd love a complete list of players that Malkin and Sid have had to play with over their careers. It would be hysterical and depressing at the same time.

Boychuk has to be one of the worst we've seen in a couple of years. That says a lot.

He's only playing on the second line because there is nobody else. That's on Shero. It's pretty sad we don't have one legit homegrown wingwr ready to play in the top 6 after 7 years of Shero.

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02-11-2013, 12:50 PM
  #61
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Occam's razor.

Move Kunitz back with Malkin and Neal instead of jumbling a thousand moving parts. We know that line can produce, put it back together.

Call-up Bennett, try Jeffrey or Boychuk with Crosby and Dupuis. Maybe Cooke. Or whatever but lets use one line that we know can be successful instead of jumbling things up.

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02-11-2013, 12:50 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
I don't think this is going to come across properly, but:

if you took Neal and Boychuk and put them with Sid, I don't think anyone is talking about the black hole on Sid's wing. Not because of better chemistry or anything like that, but because Sid would bend over backwards (to a fault, as we see with Dupuis at times) to make it work.

I would be 100% on board this train if I thought Geno and Neal were playing well and making good decisions and Boychuk was just pooping on himself.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean there. I think Crosby does more with less than Malkin does, but is it mostly that or the fact that Pascal Dupuis is a capable NHL player and Boychuk isn't? I don't think this is some tangled web. Boychuk isn't a very good player.

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02-11-2013, 12:56 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Terrapin View Post
It is what it is for now. Shero knew about this for years, and did absolutely nothing about it. Seriously, his entire plan this offseason was Parise? No plan B, C, or D? Jesus, I'd kill to have Sullivan back on Sid or Geno's wing (and also running the PP). Semin would look pretty good playing w/ Sid. Instead, Shero's sitting on a ton of cap space. But hey, look at all the prospects we have!

Also, Tyler Kenndy is pure garbage. Matt Cooke isn't much better. The only reason either of them were moderately successful is because of Staal. Shero obviously thought they were good enough to succeed with anyone centering them. Once again, he was wrong.
Agreed. The 3rd line poses no offensive threat. Sutter has been playing well as of late but he doesn't necessarily make TK and MC any better. I hate Kennedy. He's ensured a roster spot here until the end of the season because who would want him?

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02-11-2013, 12:58 PM
  #64
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Agreed. The 3rd line poses no offensive threat. Sutter has been playing well as of late but he doesn't necessarily make TK and MC any better. I hate Kennedy. He's ensured a roster spot here until the end of the season because who would want him?
Kennedy's the only one not pulling his weight though. Cooke and Sutter are about on pace. Now if you want to talk about number of chances/consistency, yeah they could do better I think.

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02-11-2013, 12:58 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by No Wingers View Post
I'd love a complete list of players that Malkin and Sid have had to play with over their careers. It would be hysterical and depressing at the same time.

Boychuk has to be one of the worst we've seen in a couple of years.
Post Hossa:

Fedetenko: Now a 4th line penalty killer who's been on 2 teams since.
Ponikarovsky: 3rd/4th liner, who's been on 3 teams since.
Sykora: Dumped by Minnesota after leaving Pens and exiled to Europe. Came back, scored some goals for Jersey, but useless enough to be a healthy scratch in the playoffs (again)
Guerin: Forced to retire after being unable to get a contract.
Kovelv: Exiled to Europe. Healthy scratch for the Panthers. THE PANTHERS!!!
Comrie: Retired due to bad case of suck (and a bad hip)
Tangradi: THIRD ROUND PICK, not the first rounder many mistake him to be.
Boychuk: Waiver wire pickup
Sullivan: Almost worthless 5 on 5 after the 15 game mark. He's the only one I would have kept strictly for the PP.

I'm sure there's one or two more, but I'm getting nauseated writing this.

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02-11-2013, 01:00 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by No Wingers View Post
I'd love a complete list of players that Malkin and Sid have had to play with over their careers. It would be hysterical and depressing at the same time.

Boychuk has to be one of the worst we've seen in a couple of years. That says a lot.

He's only playing on the second line because there is nobody else. That's on Shero. It's pretty sad we don't have one legit homegrown wingwr ready to play in the top 6 after 7 years of Shero.
Last year, the best line in the league was Kunitz, Geno, Neal. The best line in the league. This year, Geno and Neal are literally playing with someone that the offensive juggernaut Carolina Hurricanes put on waivers. That's about the equivalent of Chicago picking up Cal O'Reilly to play with Kane and Hossa. It's an embarrassment. And the reason we have a revolving door of scrubs for that position is because Shero has not been able to find and retain a single compentent winger in 6 years to play with Crosby.

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02-11-2013, 01:01 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
Post Hossa:

Fedetenko: Now a 4th line penalty killer who's been on 2 teams since.
Ponikarovsky: 3rd/4th liner, who's been on 3 teams since.
Sykora: Dumped by Minnesota after leaving Pens and exiled to Europe. Came back, scored some goals for Jersey, but useless enough to be a healthy scratch in the playoffs (again)
Guerin: Forced to retire after being unable to get a contract.
Kovelv: Exiled to Europe. Healthy scratch for the Panthers. THE PANTHERS!!!
Comrie: Retired due to bad case of suck (and a bad hip)
Tangradi: THIRD ROUND PICK, not the first rounder many mistake him to be.
Boychuk: Waiver wire pickup
Sullivan: Almost worthless 5 on 5 after the 15 game mark. He's the only one I would have kept strictly for the PP.

I'm sure there's one or two more, but I'm getting nauseated writing this.
LOL. I forgot about Comrie.

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02-11-2013, 01:04 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
I'm not sure exactly what you mean there. I think Crosby does more with less than Malkin does, but is it mostly that or the fact that Pascal Dupuis is a capable NHL player and Boychuk isn't? I don't think this is some tangled web. Boychuk isn't a very good player.
My point is no matter how many times Dupuis flubs a pass, fails to tap in a golden setup, or slaps a bomb into the goalies chest rather than pass it to an open Sid - thought it was interesting that the NBC Crew say Bylsma had mentioned Duper failing to get the puck to Crosby on occasion - Sid will never say "F U, I'll do it myself." He continues to involve his line mates - to a fault, at times, in my opinion. Sometimes I think Crosby driving 1-on-1 or 1-on-2 and getting a shot off is a better proposition than giving the puck to Dupuis or Kunitz - but Crosby doesn't care, he's making the best hockey play that's available in his mind, and isn't discounting its chance of success due to the player on the receiving end of that decision.

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02-11-2013, 01:05 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
Occam's razor.

Move Kunitz back with Malkin and Neal instead of jumbling a thousand moving parts. We know that line can produce, put it back together.

Call-up Bennett, try Jeffrey or Boychuk with Crosby and Dupuis. Maybe Cooke. Or whatever but lets use one line that we know can be successful instead of jumbling things up.
This makes sense, because we have no proof that Kunitz - Crosby - Dupuis can produce - and at a better rate than KMN.

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02-11-2013, 01:07 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
Post Hossa:

Fedetenko: Now a 4th line penalty killer who's been on 2 teams since.
Ponikarovsky: 3rd/4th liner, who's been on 3 teams since.
Sykora: Dumped by Minnesota after leaving Pens and exiled to Europe. Came back, scored some goals for Jersey, but useless enough to be a healthy scratch in the playoffs (again)
Guerin: Forced to retire after being unable to get a contract.
Kovelv: Exiled to Europe. Healthy scratch for the Panthers. THE PANTHERS!!!
Comrie: Retired due to bad case of suck (and a bad hip)
Tangradi: THIRD ROUND PICK, not the first rounder many mistake him to be.
Boychuk: Waiver wire pickup
Sullivan: Almost worthless 5 on 5 after the 15 game mark. He's the only one I would have kept strictly for the PP.

I'm sure there's one or two more, but I'm getting nauseated writing this.
It probably frustrates me more than it should, but I literally get pissed off watching games when I start to think about how Sid's prime years are being wasted playing next to a guy like Dupuis, where the "all-star" winger of the line is a third wheel guy like Kunitz.

When you think about the kind of linemates that other stars get to play with on a nightly basis, then you think of the linemates Sid has had for the majority of his tenure as a Pen, it's laughable. Geno was in the same boat, but at least now he's got Neal. Since Hossa, Sid's linemates have ranged from over the hill vets long past their due date, to grinders playing well above where they should.

I'm getting angry just typing this.

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02-11-2013, 01:14 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
My point is no matter how many times Dupuis flubs a pass, fails to tap in a golden setup, or slaps a bomb into the goalies chest rather than pass it to an open Sid - thought it was interesting that the NBC Crew say Bylsma had mentioned Duper failing to get the puck to Crosby on occasion - Sid will never say "F U, I'll do it myself." He continues to involve his line mates - to a fault, at times, in my opinion. Sometimes I think Crosby driving 1-on-1 or 1-on-2 and getting a shot off is a better proposition than giving the puck to Dupuis or Kunitz - but Crosby doesn't care, he's making the best hockey play that's available in his mind, and isn't discounting its chance of success due to the player on the receiving end of that decision.
Let's just say that's dead on: Dupuis being a much better player than Boychuk still isn't being addressed. By the logic you're using let's just put Glass with Malkin again, or anyone really. According to what you're saying it's up to Malkin to make it work. That's just nonsense in my opinion. Now if you were talking someone like Kennedy, who at least has some skill, I'll buy that. I'm not buying it with players like Boychuk and Tangradi though. You can't get blood from a stone.

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02-11-2013, 01:16 PM
  #72
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Just thinking of this some more: if you move Kunitz to Geno's line, you're moving the same two problems to Sid's line: the whole that Kunitz fills on Geno's line will be moved to Sid's, and the constant revolving door of wingers will now exist on that line.

You're going to have the SAME PROBLEM no the line Kunitz is NOT on.

Also, someone who thinks Boychuk is a bad player, please give me your thoughts on how the following lines would perform in the playoffs:

Boychuk - Crosby - Dupuis
Dupuis - Crosby - Bennett

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02-11-2013, 01:26 PM
  #73
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6 of those were Boychuk, I think, 4 Tangradi and 2 Kennedy (Glass got half a game when Kennedy was pulled from the line). That lack of production, particularly with Boychuk and Tangradi, is of the causal variety, in my view. The line couldn't produce because they were on it.

Jeffrey got one game, looked better than any of the other four, created some chances, then got pulled for Boychuk, which I said then would be a mistake and still looks to be a mistake. They need to put him back and give him at least 4 games.

Not saying he's a long-term solution, but I'll take my chances with Jeffrey's game over whatever it is Boychuk, Kennedy and Tangradi think they're contributing out there.

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02-11-2013, 01:30 PM
  #74
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Dupuis isn't as "natural" a finisher as Kunitz is, but he'd still become the Kunitz of Sid's line if Kunitz moved up.

Again, Dupuis-Sid-Scorer is a very good line, because Dupuis can do some of the dirty work that Kunitz does. However, having the both of them on the same line is quite redundant.

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02-11-2013, 01:33 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
Dupuis isn't as "natural" a finisher as Kunitz is, but he'd still become the Kunitz of Sid's line if Kunitz moved up.

Again, Dupuis-Sid-Scorer is a very good line, because Dupuis can do some of the dirty work that Kunitz does. However, having the both of them on the same line is quite redundant.
Yes, Dupe - Sid - Scorer. That scorer is not in the Pens organization, though.

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