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Homer's Odyssey

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Old
02-11-2013, 12:14 PM
  #201
Garbage Goal
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
So you would be fine being Carolina and you must think Jim Rutherford is a great GM. After all he has a cup and made a 2nd long playoff run 4 years ago. That's the only time they have been in the playoffs in the last 7 years though. But according to your post, that is your ideal team.
My ideal team doesn't go to close to half a century without a Cup win and is fine with consistent mediocrity.

I never said we have to be Carolina. However, this team should have either rebuilt or done an even more major retooling after trading our two franchise guys. Going half rebuild half competitive doesn't work. Can't force young rookies and sophomores like B Schenn, Couturier, And Read as main contributors while having a barren farm team, no goalie depth, and several other guys on the inverse end of their careers (Timonen, Briere for instance). Would be nice if we could draft and keep a good d man as well. Or even had any modicum of offensive talent on the back end.

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02-11-2013, 12:16 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Wait so the risk is the signing or the trade? This doesn't make sense. Or both? Which part is not forward thinking? Or better yet, what should he have done?
The fact that he felt the need to trade them before their contracts began indicates he shouldn't have given them the contracts to begin with. You only give those contracts to players you want in your organization for a long time. Trading them shortly after sends a very confused signal.

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02-11-2013, 12:18 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Wait so the risk is the signing or the trade? This doesn't make sense. Or both? Which part is not forward thinking? Or better yet, what should he have done?
Not do things completely ass backwards by signing your two franchise centers to lifetime contracts and then immediately trading them. Made no sense.

Like I said in my last post it'd be nice if he didn't go half rebuild by trading our two best centers for young guns and draft picks while attempting to keep the roster competitive.

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02-11-2013, 12:29 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
My ideal team doesn't go to close to half a century without a Cup win and is fine with consistent mediocrity.

I never said we have to be Carolina. However, this team should have either rebuilt or done an even more major retooling after trading our two franchise guys. Going half rebuild half competitive doesn't work. Can't force young rookies and sophomores like B Schenn, Couturier, And Read as main contributors while having a barren farm team, no goalie depth, and several other guys on the inverse end of their careers (Timonen, Briere for instance). Would be nice if we could draft and keep a good d man as well. Or even had any modicum of offensive talent on the back end.
Did you enjoy the Penguins series last year? Or did losing to New Jersey make that series no longer great? It's sounds like the only thing that will make you happy with the franchise is a cup win. If that is the case, there is no point in watching until the clinching game in the finals.

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02-11-2013, 12:32 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
Did you enjoy the Penguins series last year? Or did losing to New Jersey make that series no longer great? It's sounds like the only thing that will make you happy with the franchise is a cup win. If that is the case, there is no point in watching until the clinching game in the finals.
Way to over simplify things and not make any counter arguments at all.

After close to half a century people get impatient. I already explained to you what I would like in my last post but you don't seem that awesome at reading.

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02-11-2013, 12:32 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
The fact that he felt the need to trade them before their contracts began indicates he shouldn't have given them the contracts to begin with. You only give those contracts to players you want in your organization for a long time. Trading them shortly after sends a very confused signal.
Who cares what signal it sends? He made moves that allowed the team to get younger and cheaper. It sucked for Carter and Richards and they are probably pissed, but it also allowed the team to go in a different direction. Are you really mad at him for signing someone and then trading them? Who gives a ****? Oh it sends a confused signal? I guess he shouldn't have done it. He should have signed them to shorter deals and then traded them. That would have made it ok. Or maybe he shouldn't have traded them at all, then people would be complaining that we don't have any young talented players because he signed Carter and Richards.

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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Not do things completely ass backwards by signing your two franchise centers to lifetime contracts and then immediately trading them. Made no sense.

Like I said in my last post it'd be nice if he didn't go half rebuild by trading our two best centers for young guns and draft picks while attempting to keep the roster competitive.
So then what is it? He should have kept them and tried to be competitive or done a "full rebuild" of the team? (which, would have looked like what, exactly?)

Should he have kept them? Then where does that leave the team? Two good centers, Giroux on third line? Playing wing? Second line? What good young players would be there to fill the shoes of Read, Voracek, Schenn, and Couturier? Who is in net? Bob? Someone else? Sunshine? Is Tomas Hyka on this team? Are they competing at the same level they are now or are they better? Worse?

Or is it just the "ass backwards" thing that is not sitting well with you? Again, that is something that really sucks for Richards and Carter, but has zero effect on anything else. They got dealt. Oh well. How would signing them to shorter terms before trading them or not signing them have changed anything?

This is just a really confusing argument.

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02-11-2013, 12:34 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Who cares what signal it sends? He made moves that allowed the team to get younger and cheaper. It sucked for Carter and Richards and they are probably pissed, but it also allowed the team to go in a different direction. Are you really mad at him for signing someone and then trading them? Who gives a ****? Oh it sends a confused signal? I guess he shouldn't have done it. He should have signed them to shorter deals and then traded them. That would have made it ok. Or maybe he shouldn't have traded them at all, then people would be complaining that we don't have any young talented players because he signed Carter and Richards.
You're completely missing the point. Why bother signing players to those contracts if you aren't going to keep them? Why establish those two as the long term plan, and then completely abandon it almost immediately? It's almost as if Homer doesn't actually have a long term plan.

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02-11-2013, 12:36 PM
  #208
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Who needs Tomas Hyka when you have The Klotz and Mathers.

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02-11-2013, 12:38 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Who needs Tomas Hyka when you have The Klotz and Mathers.
Who needs a prospect pool when you can fly by the seat of your pants every offseason and pray you manage to sign the FAs you need.

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02-11-2013, 12:39 PM
  #210
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All you did was ask what I'd do as though I'm a GM. I'm not. Not gonna go over every move possible.

Maybe keep Carter on wing or trade one of the two for pieces that are ready now. Or even both for pieces that are ready now (rather then Couturier, Schenn, and Cousins). Maybe for an offensive d we currently desperately need or winger depth. As for goal they could have kept Bob if they were going full rebuild or maybe sign Bryz like they did and keep a great tandem. Or just Bryz and sign an actual backup rather then an old journeyman and an AHLer in Leighton. There were plenty of options besides going half in half out.

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02-11-2013, 12:39 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You're completely missing the point. Why bother signing players to those contracts if you aren't going to keep them? Why establish those two as the long term plan, and then completely abandon it almost immediately? It's almost as if Homer doesn't actually have a long term plan.
It doesn't matter. Maybe they were in his plans, then his plans changed. That surely could not have happened though. It is much more likely that he clsoed his eyes and pointed to to names and two numbers and gave them deals. Or maybe his plan was to sign them to big deals, and then trade them. Not a very nice thing to do, but its a business.

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02-11-2013, 12:40 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You're completely missing the point. Why bother signing players to those contracts if you aren't going to keep them? Why establish those two as the long term plan, and then completely abandon it almost immediately? It's almost as if Homer doesn't actually have a long term plan.
The Holmgren Plan
Next Week: Get around to reading that CBA thing
April: Blow draft picks on past-prime veterans
Next Year: Blow up team again
Long Term: ??????
Result: STANLEY CUP

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02-11-2013, 12:40 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Who needs a prospect pool when you can fly by the seat of your pants every offseason and pray you manage to sign the FAs you need.
Which, going by the current roster, he hasn't.

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02-11-2013, 12:40 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
It doesn't matter. Maybe they were in his plans, then his plans changed. That surely could not have happened though. It is much more likely that he clsoed his eyes and pointed to to names and two numbers and gave them deals.
If his plans changed so dramatically I'm guessing they weren't very good or well thought out plans to begin with.

Edit: I see you've since added more. You're stealing my signature "edit posts 15 times" move

But yeah, in response to that, if he did sign them to those deals with the intention of trading them immediately...that's an incredibly stupid move. He relies heavily on FA to fills holes. Portraying the organization as anything other than a loyal and fantastic destination for free agents is a roundabout way of shooting himself in the foot.


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02-11-2013, 12:40 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You're completely missing the point. Why bother signing players to those contracts if you aren't going to keep them? Why establish those two as the long term plan, and then completely abandon it almost immediately? It's almost as if Homer doesn't actually have a long term plan.
of course some think we are saying we want a stacked farm club over a good Flyers team. I am not. I have never said that. My point is consistantly either taken the wrong way or its ignored.

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02-11-2013, 12:42 PM
  #216
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Which, going by the current roster, he hasn't.
It certainly doesn't help that an enormous amount of cap money is tied up in a mediocre defense.

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02-11-2013, 12:43 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
It doesn't matter. Maybe they were in his plans, then his plans changed. That surely could not have happened though. It is much more likely that he clsoed his eyes and pointed to to names and two numbers and gave them deals. Or maybe his plan was to sign them to big deals, and then trade them. Not a very nice thing to do, but its a business.
If he manages a multi million dollar organization like that and changes plans that quickly then he may have a mental disorder.

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02-11-2013, 12:44 PM
  #218
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Who needs a prospect pool when you can fly by the seat of your pants every offseason and pray you manage to sign the FAs you need.
yep trading away 1st and 3rd and 2nd and 4th rounders on rentals is brilliant strategy. brilliant. I do wonder sometimes if Holmgren thinks some of these trades out before making a knee jerk or panic trade.

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02-11-2013, 12:50 PM
  #219
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I am confused by your argument. The poster I was responding to indicated that dealing Richards and Carter was not a move made by someone who is a "visionary of a long-term future." I have the complete opposite view, namely that those moves were made with one thing in mind: the long-term future.
And I'm saying that if he really did have a plan -- and if he is thinking long-term as you think he is -- why would he make that trade for Versteeg in the first place and then let him walk in the summer instead of using that 1st to help to rebuild/retool that team in the 2011 offseason?

As has been discussed over and over, Holmgren felt backed into a corner cap-wise. As players get better and older, their contracts/caphits go up, so you have more money tied up in fewer people. If he was going to trade Richards and Carter, he had three options: trade for younger players/picks, contract swaps, or trade for older players with smaller contracts and/or picks. Which would you choose? The obvious choice in Holmgren's situation -- one where he little or no prospects -- is to go younger. To me, that's necessity more than strategic planning.

So back to my original point, if Holmgren really did have this vision of rebuilding this team for the future, he wouldn't have traded picks for Versteeg just months before his big moves. He's a gambler and he does things by the seat of his pants. All he did here is buy himself more time.

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02-11-2013, 12:53 PM
  #220
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A team building long term doesn't trade picks for rentals or keep the majority of the roster mid to old age. They also don't have barren farm systems and develop a goalie or d man prospect every once in a while.

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02-11-2013, 12:56 PM
  #221
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It certainly doesn't help that an enormous amount of cap money is tied up in a mediocre defense.
More of a problem of not investing it in the right defense to both fit the system and help make a balanced roster. Practically all of our d men are of the big, hulking variety that hit a lot and play more defensive games. Timonen is the only one with even a modicum of offensive talent and the only one who plays mostly a finesse game. Problem is he's in his late thirties.

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02-11-2013, 01:02 PM
  #222
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I suppose I'm on the fence over the FO. Of course I'd love to have superstars-in-waiting just a short bus ride from Adirondack, but I still get goosebumps watching games from the 2010 run to the finals. It was a very costly deal to bring in Chris Pronger, but his time with this squad was among the most exciting in the 30+ years I've rooted for this team.

And the team is indeed on the young side, so the urgency for having farm options is not quite yet through the ceiling. That being said, now is indeed the time for Holmgren et al to sit on their hands with dealing draft picks and to make restocking the system a top priority. Not THE top priority, which is making the best personnel moves for the Flyers, but making the most of a deep draft this year to fill important organizational weaknesses.

I wouldn't have been very disappointed had this season continued to spiral downward and it may well do that yet! considering the need for top-line young talent. But as long as there's a 1st rounder to be had, I trust the braintrust to make the most of their choice.

How's that for wishy-washy?

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02-11-2013, 01:04 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
It doesn't matter. Maybe they were in his plans, then his plans changed. That surely could not have happened though. It is much more likely that he clsoed his eyes and pointed to to names and two numbers and gave them deals. Or maybe his plan was to sign them to big deals, and then trade them. Not a very nice thing to do, but its a business.
You are making everyone's argument yourself. They were in his plans, and his plans changed. Less than a year later. What does that tell you about his ability to plan?

THIS is my problem with holmgren.

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02-11-2013, 01:11 PM
  #224
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for the record I dont think trading Carter and Richards was Holmgren's call. That was Sniders call IMO

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02-11-2013, 01:13 PM
  #225
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We've lost Pronger and Carle and he still hasn't replaced them. Before someone mentions Grossmann or Schenn, they don't play nearly similar styles.

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