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Team Toughness or lack thereof

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02-11-2013, 11:00 AM
  #51
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Those winnpeg Jets and Carolina Hurricanes really bounced around and took liberties on our soft ****** Euros, if we have a Konopka in those game he would have really made a difference.

I am really getting tired of this team taking **** from the Jets and Hurricanes.

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02-11-2013, 11:11 AM
  #52
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I'm talking about the Team that won the Cup over the Team that lost it in the Finals.

Prove me wrong!

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02-11-2013, 11:24 AM
  #53
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Those winnpeg Jets and Carolina Hurricanes really bounced around and took liberties on our soft ****** Euros, if we have a Konopka in those game he would have really made a difference.

I am really getting tired of this team taking **** from the Jets and Hurricanes.
Why so cynical and sarcastic? I never understand the violent back-lash we get from the "enlightened ones" on this board whenever the concept of team toughness is brought up.

I love the up-tempo, puck-possession game that Maclean employs. And it definitely requires skill and speed. But am I the devil if I say I also like a little toughness along the boards and a team that's hard to play against? Last year's team had a great mix, I thought. They had the nuclear option for fighting in Carkner. He helped keep things from getting crazy for our guys - and illustrated in Saturday's Leafs-Habs game. Konopka didn't do much other than win faceoffs and lose most fights so his contributions are certainly debatable. Foligno for Methot was definitely an upgrade.

So I'm on-board with us not being some goon team. But sweet Jebus is it ok that I don't want the pendulum swinging too far the other way? Because I've seen what that's like. You end up getting pushed around AND losing the game. Not good.

The right mix. I think that's what this post was about originally. And as much as I despise the over-simplistic notion of having a bunch of useless fighters on the roster I almost equally despise the blindness that happens when you ignore team chemistry.

We need to make sure our key guys - Karlsson, Spezza, Gonchar, Michalek, Silfverberg, Alfie - can play their game and have room out there. That's all. No need to jump down our freaking throats for daring to suggest that hockey is a rough sport and that it helps having some tough customers on your roster to help you win.

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02-11-2013, 12:26 PM
  #54
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You don't go far with butter soft non-scoring players like Regin in your top 6. Zibby, Silfverberg and Michalek play soft as well. That's over half your top 6. Turris is soft too, but he's getting some points at least. You don't mind a soft player when he produces like Datsyuk.

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02-11-2013, 12:41 PM
  #55
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And Zibenejad and Silfver is far and far away from being soft Euros. Silfver has been going to the net and taking abuse on a nightly basis, he was drafted and projected to be a 3rd liner that would score the garbage goals, he is far from being soft, he will never lay people out but he isnt soft.

Zibenejad has more hits per game than Smith and Neil, lol you watch this guy, he finishes his check everytime he geta the chance.

Dacosta had a bigger hit the other day more than I have seen from Neil, Smith and Greening who are good ole canadian boys.

Another dumb toughness thread with some very subtle racism.

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02-11-2013, 01:03 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Ron Jeremy View Post
You don't go far with butter soft non-scoring players like Regin in your top 6. Zibby, Silfverberg and Michalek play soft as well. That's over half your top 6. Turris is soft too, but he's getting some points at least. You don't mind a soft player when he produces like Datsyuk.
I think it would be better to refer to those players as non-abrasive or not significantly physical. Aside from Regin, the rest of the players you listed battle hard for pucks along the boards, drive hard to the net, go to the dirty areas and take some punishment to make some plays. Therefore they could all be considered tough in some sense.

What we lack, and what I think you are referring to, is abrasive players. Currently we only have Neil, Smith and Methot. On a cup contending team, that wouldn't be enough.

The main reason why you will see some posters apprehensive about making the team tougher is that abrasive players, generally speaking, are lacking one or all of speed, skill and discipline. Those are some important risks to consider but it shouldn't deter any GM from building a tough team. It essentially requires a cost-benefit analysis in terms of the gains in physicality, and abrasiveness and the loss in speed, skill and/or discipline.

At this point, the Sens aren't a very tough team. They have the toughness comparable to the 2007 cup run. So there is a good chance that they could struggle significantly when they play some of the tougher teams in the league.

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02-11-2013, 01:19 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by General Granny View Post
And Zibenejad and Silfver is far and far away from being soft Euros. Silfver has been going to the net and taking abuse on a nightly basis, he was drafted and projected to be a 3rd liner that would score the garbage goals, he is far from being soft, he will never lay people out but he isnt soft.

Zibenejad has more hits per game than Smith and Neil, lol you watch this guy, he finishes his check everytime he geta the chance.

Dacosta had a bigger hit the other day more than I have seen from Neil, Smith and Greening who are good ole canadian boys.

Another dumb toughness thread with some very subtle racism.
The things you list are not "toughness" or any special attributes. Taking a hit to make a play is part of hockey, and any player who made it to the NHL should be able and willing to take a hit to make a play. Just because you do it dosen't make you a particularely "tough" player or whatever, otherwise every player in this league would be considered "tough" and GMs wouldn't go out seeking certain types of players. What people mean by toughness is team toughness, as in your ability as a team to dish out physical punishment and intimidation, and not let opponents take liberties on you. For some reason, enlightened snobs like yourself like to pretend intimidation dosen't exist in the game and that hockey is a nice, friendly game with no violence required where everyone holds hands and sings kumbaya, and that anyone who believes otherwise is a dumb neanderthal or something. That is complete rubbish. Intimidation exists and is a factor out there. And this team is not adequately equipped to deal with that type of game. Enough with the sarcastic ****** bagness and the insults towards people who dare have a different opinion from you snobs already, believing the team needs more jam is a legit opinion. If it was up to you nave pacifists, the Sens would have turned the other cheek last year after the Rangers started targetting Karlsson and Spezza in the playoffs, and they would have gotten swept.

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02-11-2013, 01:24 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by General Granny View Post
Datsyuck isnt soft you dolt, toughness isnt being in the highlights of Don Cherrys latest rockem sockem dvd, toughness is getting destroyed by Doughty in one shift then getting up and scoring a goal right in the next shift, toughness isnt just rubbing a guy off the boards, toughness staying in front of the net, taking hacks and slashes and still going back to that net, toughness is getting abused in the corners by the dman and still coming up woth the puck to make a play, which Datsyuck does in a nightly basis and is no way shape or form soft. Just because all you know from is his weird European name and seen his skillfull highlights doesnt mean he is soft, kind of like how the general thinking towards Karlsson is that hes very good at offence, he must suck at defense.
4 Lady Bing trophies = soft

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02-11-2013, 02:33 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Bender2.0 View Post
The things you list are not "toughness" or any special attributes. Taking a hit to make a play is part of hockey, and any player who made it to the NHL should be able and willing to take a hit to make a play. Just because you do it dosen't make you a particularely "tough" player or whatever, otherwise every player in this league would be considered "tough" and GMs wouldn't go out seeking certain types of players. What people mean by toughness is team toughness, as in your ability as a team to dish out physical punishment and intimidation, and not let opponents take liberties on you. For some reason, enlightened snobs like yourself like to pretend intimidation dosen't exist in the game and that hockey is a nice, friendly game with no violence required where everyone holds hands and sings kumbaya, and that anyone who believes otherwise is a dumb neanderthal or something. That is complete rubbish. Intimidation exists and is a factor out there. And this team is not adequately equipped to deal with that type of game. Enough with the sarcastic ****** bagness and the insults towards people who dare have a different opinion from you snobs already, believing the team needs more jam is a legit opinion. If it was up to you nave pacifists, the Sens would have turned the other cheek last year after the Rangers started targetting Karlsson and Spezza in the playoffs, and they would have gotten swept.
You pretty much articulated how I feel about this subject as well. Although I think the Sens are pretty 'meh' on the team toughness category as it stands today. We don't suck at it but we aren't particularly great in terms of team toughness either. I'd like to see it improved with guys that can play if that's possible. Although the future looks better with players like Borowiecki and Noesen stepping in that can improve upon that.

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02-11-2013, 02:37 PM
  #60
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There is definately a lack of physical play on this team right now. It is not a euro vs north american thing, Smith is one of the guys I'm most dissapointed with this year for his lack of physical play. I watched the no-hitter against the Jets saturday, then watched Toronto and Montreal play a fast paced tough game that was great to watch. The third period of that game just showed that if you are going to play a tough physical game, you have to be prepared to back it up. Montreal tried, but Toronto kicked their ass. Ottawa might as well find some tough guys, because they are not scoring. If you can out finess and get a big lead on a team, you can afford to skate away from the rough stuff, but that is not what has been happening lately. Maybe it is just me, but I think Neil has been Ottawa's best forward this year.

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02-11-2013, 02:52 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by H2ODP View Post
You pretty much articulated how I feel about this subject as well. Although I think the Sens are pretty 'meh' on the team toughness category as it stands today. We don't suck at it but we aren't particularly great in terms of team toughness either. I'd like to see it improved with guys that can play if that's possible. Although the future looks better with players like Borowiecki and Noesen stepping in that can improve upon that.
Yes, Borowiecki has been one of my favourite players this year. He brings exactly what we need on the blue line, and I am dumbfounded that they would send him down.

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02-11-2013, 03:01 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Ron Jeremy View Post
4 Lady Bing trophies = soft
4 lady bings= not a ****ing idiot that takes penalties that hurt his team like good ole canadian boy Zack Smitty from good ole town in the praires.

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02-11-2013, 03:03 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Bender2.0 View Post
Yes, Borowiecki has been one of my favourite players this year. He brings exactly what we need on the blue line, and I am dumbfounded that they would send him down.
Because he could barely play 10 minutes without being overwhelmed, he cant make a decent first pass, and or get the puck out to save his life.

Boro will be good for us but hes a year away.

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02-11-2013, 03:03 PM
  #64
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Toughness isn't just a team full of fighters. I think it's taking hits to make plays, winning puck battles and willing to go to the the front of the net or block shots.

Silfverberg won't beat up Colton Orr but he's a better hockey player, blocks shots and goes to the front of the net.

If you think you need fighters, how many did the LA Kings have last year and they won the Cup.

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02-11-2013, 03:08 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Ron Jeremy View Post
4 Lady Bing trophies = soft
or is it possibly a very smart player?

This current Sens don't lack toughness, as a group go to all the tough spots on the ice and give as good as they take.

My only hope is that Greening starts to play with more of an edge to his game.

On the other hand when I read names like Carkner and Konopka, it is clear some believe toughness is fighting.

Fot their info, Carks sure as hell isn't intimidating this year, a knockdown by Lucic and Barch gave him all he could handle. Konopka was never intimidating, just a guy willing to get involved.


Last edited by Holdurbreathe: 02-11-2013 at 03:38 PM.
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02-11-2013, 03:20 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by General Granny View Post
Because he could barely play 10 minutes without being overwhelmed, he cant make a decent first pass, and or get the puck out to save his life.

Boro will be good for us but hes a year away.
So sad... People seem to see what they want to see, not what really happens.

Played 18:27 against Pitt, 3rd star of the game, and was matched up against Malkin who go no points when Boro was on the ice.

Looking forward to seeing who gets that assignment on Wednesday and how they do.

Toronto on Saturday should be fun too.

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02-11-2013, 03:28 PM
  #67
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Yeah he played 1 good game whixh happened to be hist first NHL home game in front of his family.

He hasnt looked as good since and clearly played over his head in that game, because he didnt come close to matching it in the other ones.

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02-11-2013, 03:30 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by topshelfie View Post
Toughness isn't just a team full of fighters. I think it's taking hits to make plays, winning puck battles and willing to go to the the front of the net or block shots.

Silfverberg won't beat up Colton Orr but he's a better hockey player, blocks shots and goes to the front of the net.

If you think you need fighters, how many did the LA Kings have last year and they won the Cup.
What you described isn't really the definition of a tough team. A tough team is a team that is difficult to play against in terms of the physical aspects of the game. Agitating, hitting, fighting, getting involved in scrums, roughing up players in the corners and around the net and in general just intimidating the opposition.

The Kings were, and still are a very tough team. In terms of tough players they have Dustin Brown, Mike Richards, Dustin Penner, Kyle Clifford, Colin Fraser, Dwight King, Trevor Lewis, Jordan Nolan, Brad Richardson, Jarret Stoll, Drew Doughty, Matt Greene, Willie Mitchell. Also to a lesser extent Anze Kopitar, Jeff Carter, Rob Scuderi.

Being a tough team is important to winning Cups.

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02-11-2013, 03:31 PM
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Yeah I must be the only one that saw it, thats why I was the one that called him to tell him the news abiut being sent down.

I must have some strong bias towards players that play for my favorite team for some reason.

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02-11-2013, 03:38 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
or is it possibly a very smart player?

This current Sens don't lack toughness at all. When names like Carkner and Konopka drop into the discussion it is clear it isn't about team toughness its about fighting.

The only player I would like to see play with more edge to his game is Greening.
It's not about fighting, but if you are going to play tough (I think hockey is still a contact sport) you will get challenged. It's more about intimidation than actual fighting. A guy like Carkner was more valuable for what didn't happen when he was in the line-up. A guy like that makes guys on his team braver, and guys on the other team think twice about roughing up the not so tough guys. That's why the Islanders gave him a nice contract.

Right now, Colton Orr is playing regularly for Toronto, and they have that other big tough guy too, Mc somebody. I.m not looking forward to the Ottawa/Toronto game the way things have been going lately.

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02-11-2013, 03:39 PM
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What you described isn't really the definition of a tough team. A tough team is a team that is difficult to play against in terms of the physical aspects of the game. Agitating, hitting, fighting, getting involved in scrums, roughing up players in the corners and around the net and in general just intimidating the opposition.

The Kings were, and still are a very tough team. In terms of tough players they have Dustin Brown, Mike Richards, Dustin Penner, Kyle Clifford, Colin Fraser, Dwight King, Trevor Lewis, Jordan Nolan, Brad Richardson, Jarret Stoll, Drew Doughty, Matt Greene, Willie Mitchell. Also to a lesser extent Anze Kopitar, Jeff Carter, Rob Scuderi.

Being a tough team is important to winning Cups.
The players you listed don't really fight or get into scrums and intimidate, they're more like my description of a tough player.

Our recent struggles are scoring goals, I don't see how a few more fighters or intimidating players would replace the loss of Spezza.

Even if you look back at least year vs the Rangers, we were a tough team but still lost to them. It's about more than fighting or intimidating.

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02-11-2013, 03:42 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by General Granny View Post
And Zibenejad and Silfver is far and far away from being soft Euros. Silfver has been going to the net and taking abuse on a nightly basis, he was drafted and projected to be a 3rd liner that would score the garbage goals, he is far from being soft, he will never lay people out but he isnt soft.

Zibenejad has more hits per game than Smith and Neil, lol you watch this guy, he finishes his check everytime he geta the chance.

Dacosta had a bigger hit the other day more than I have seen from Neil, Smith and Greening who are good ole canadian boys.

Another dumb toughness thread with some very subtle racism.
Racism? I doubt someone who things that some European players are soft are racist. That's a stupid & uncalled for statement, it doesn't belong here. There is no need to jump to extreme conclusions just because some ppl disagree with you, it's childish.


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Originally Posted by topshelfie View Post
Toughness isn't just a team full of fighters. I think it's taking hits to make plays, winning puck battles and willing to go to the the front of the net or block shots.

Silfverberg won't beat up Colton Orr but he's a better hockey player, blocks shots and goes to the front of the net.

If you think you need fighters, how many did the LA Kings have last year and they won the Cup.
I could be wrong but I believe the LA Kings led all teams in fights either in the season or in the playoffs last yr. As did Annahiem the yr they won, the Bruins the yr they won & the Hawks the yr they won I believe.

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Originally Posted by General Granny View Post
Yeah he played 1 good game whixh happened to be hist first NHL home game in front of his family.

He hasnt looked as good since and clearly played over his head in that game, because he didnt come close to matching it in the other ones.
Obviously not a Boro fan. The organization has been hyping Boro since he played up here last yr & he seems to have a future with Ottawa. My guess is it won't be until Phillips is gone but he could be a 7th d until that time. I have watched every game he has played & as a rookie I thought he has played quite well. He has made mistakes but what rookie doesn't. I like the nastiness that he brings, I wish Phillips played with more of a nastiness to his game. He seemed to in one game & played better because of it.

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02-11-2013, 03:50 PM
  #73
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So sad... People seem to see what they want to see, not what really happens.

Played 18:27 against Pitt, 3rd star of the game, and was matched up against Malkin who go no points when Boro was on the ice.

Looking forward to seeing who gets that assignment on Wednesday and how they do.

Toronto on Saturday should be fun too.
The bold is very true. So possibly you should consider your own observations and read what MacLean had to say about Boro before jumping in with ill conceived comments.

The Pitt game you referred to was his first, his TOI never got close to that again and in his last game he played 8:28.

It is obvious you chose the best game to make your case, unfortunately that isn't how decisions are made when it comes to being NHL ready.

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02-11-2013, 03:55 PM
  #74
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This.

Am I the only one to be a little surprised by this complaint? No team this season has come along and dominated the Sens physically aside from MAYBE Tampa bay in front of Bishop. We certainly didn't lose the Winnipeg because we lacked the mythical toughness. Don't get me wrong, a couple big hits early could have woken up the sleepy crowd and maybe brought some energy into the building but we lost that game because we couldn't break down Winnipeg in the neutral zone and are too insistent on using the stretch pass.

Greening and others need to bring it more often but otherwise this isn't a big concern. Discipline has been a much bigger problem and now that the team has played a few well disciplined games in a row people are complaining about lacking toughness. What do you want, a parade to the sin bin or a game like against Carolina where we have the puck so often that there's rarely a chance to throw a hit on the other team? There's middle ground there but playing a brand of hockey where we go out of our way to be tough is going to lead to more penalties. We're one of the best teams 5 on 5 and it's in our best interests to keep it so.
Good post. I, too was surprised to read this complaint.

If we could score like we could before the Spezza injury, this team would be completely fine.

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02-11-2013, 03:58 PM
  #75
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Just for fun, maybe people could list the players on our team that are not "tough"?

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