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Team Toughness or lack thereof

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Old
02-11-2013, 03:59 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Ron Jeremy View Post
You don't get team toughness out of a bunch of Euros. Period.
Right. That's the Detroit Red Wings' slogan. They used it when they were winning all those Stanley Cups.

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02-11-2013, 03:59 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by lafite View Post
It's not about fighting, but if you are going to play tough (I think hockey is still a contact sport) you will get challenged. It's more about intimidation than actual fighting. A guy like Carkner was more valuable for what didn't happen when he was in the line-up. A guy like that makes guys on his team braver, and guys on the other team think twice about roughing up the not so tough guys. That's why the Islanders gave him a nice contract.

Right now, Colton Orr is playing regularly for Toronto, and they have that other big tough guy too, Mc somebody. I.m not looking forward to the Ottawa/Toronto game the way things have been going lately.
Toronto doesn't concern me anymore than any other team.

What does concern me is the current lack of scoring.

IMO if Ottawa scores as they should, then players like Orr don't get but a few minutes of ice time in a game and when they do just ignore them.

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02-11-2013, 04:02 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by topshelfie View Post
Just for fun, maybe people could list the players on our team that are not "tough"?
I don't think it matters who you name there will be those that defend that player as being tough. I guess the one guy that most may agree with is Regin with his recent injury woes. I would have said Da Costa but everyone would be down my throat about him having the biggest hit against the Jets even though it was only one hit in one game.

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02-11-2013, 04:18 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
Obviously not a Boro fan. The organization has been hyping Boro since he played up here last yr & he seems to have a future with Ottawa. My guess is it won't be until Phillips is gone but he could be a 7th d until that time. I have watched every game he has played & as a rookie I thought he has played quite well. He has made mistakes but what rookie doesn't. I like the nastiness that he brings, I wish Phillips played with more of a nastiness to his game. He seemed to in one game & played better because of it.
I like Boro and what he brings as much as anyone. However I believe the organization that has been hyping him was the same organization that demoted him.

Murray likes the guy's work ethic, his fearlessness, and his desire to play in the NHL. Unfortunately the rest of his game just isn't NHL ready yet.

Phillips plays more physical than most give him credit for, he's not a fighter but is 6th on the team in hits, 3rd for Dmen. Phillips also protects the puck well, with only 2 GvAs this season.

What I would like to see is Boro play more like Phillips with the puck and not try to make hitting the only thing he does. IMO if Boro can do this he will be an excellent 3rd pairing D for the Sens.

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02-11-2013, 04:18 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Toronto doesn't concern me anymore than any other team.

What does concern me is the current lack of scoring.

IMO if Ottawa scores as they should, then players like Orr don't get but a few minutes of ice time in a game and when they do just ignore them.
..but if we score too much then players like Orr get more ice..Then we'll need more toughness to protect our new found high scorers..

the only way around this is to stay within a goal...wait isnt that whats is happening??Except were losing by one goal...

in conclusion we either need more toughness, or we have to win every game by one or two goals.

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02-11-2013, 04:20 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by topshelfie View Post
The players you listed don't really fight or get into scrums and intimidate, they're more like my description of a tough player.

Our recent struggles are scoring goals, I don't see how a few more fighters or intimidating players would replace the loss of Spezza.

Even if you look back at least year vs the Rangers, we were a tough team but still lost to them. It's about more than fighting or intimidating.
Don't get me wrong, you can't win by just being a tough team. You need high end goal tending and defense, as well as coring depth to win cups. The only reason why I said that you need toughness to win cups is that some posters think that it is a unimportant variable. Winning a cup without toughness is like winning a cup without high end goal tending or defense, or winning without scoring depth. Sure a few teams can do it but they are statistically anomalies, outliers and exceptions to the rule.

Also I don't necessarily agree with some of the other posters that having a tougher team will solve our scoring woes. Making the Senators tougher doesn't address the loss of Spezza. Although having a tougher team may mean that we can out compete the opposition and win games more so on work ethic than on pure skill.

I've been pretty vocal about the teams need to improve toughness since the off season. Toughness is an important variable in winning a Cup. Wanting to improve toughness isn't much different than wanting to improve goal tending, defence or offence all are important for increasing the potential of winning a Cup.

The Senators aren't a soft team, but they also aren't a tough team.

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02-11-2013, 04:34 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
I don't think it matters who you name there will be those that defend that player as being tough. I guess the one guy that most may agree with is Regin with his recent injury woes. I would have said Da Costa but everyone would be down my throat about him having the biggest hit against the Jets even though it was only one hit in one game.
Suffering injury is not an indication of player toughness.

IMO every player in the NHL is tough, if they weren't they would never had made it to this level.

Sure some aren't as aggressive physically as others, but to stay in the league players have to be mentally tough enough to focus on their job regardless of the situation or face not getting another contract.

IMO all the Sens players are showing they don't lack toughness, they go to the dirty areas and are physical enough to place 9th in the league in hits.

Could it be better, sure, but unlikely when the team consists of so many players learning the NHL game and their opponents.

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02-11-2013, 04:35 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
Don't get me wrong, you can't win by just being a tough team. You need high end goal tending and defense, as well as coring depth to win cups. The only reason why I said that you need toughness to win cups is that some posters think that it is a unimportant variable. Winning a cup without toughness is like winning a cup without high end goal tending or defense, or winning without scoring depth. Sure a few teams can do it but they are statistically anomalies, outliers and exceptions to the rule.

Also I don't necessarily agree with some of the other posters that having a tougher team will solve our scoring woes. Making the Senators tougher doesn't address the loss of Spezza. Although having a tougher team may mean that we can out compete the opposition and win games more so on work ethic than on pure skill.

I've been pretty vocal about the teams need to improve toughness since the off season. Toughness is an important variable in winning a Cup. Wanting to improve toughness isn't much different than wanting to improve goal tending, defence or offence all are important for increasing the potential of winning a Cup.

The Senators aren't a soft team, but they also aren't a tough team.
Your definition of tough?

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02-11-2013, 04:37 PM
  #84
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Can't we postpone this debate until a team actually bullies Ottawa or beats us down physically? It seems like an incredibly one sided debate at this time.

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02-11-2013, 04:39 PM
  #85
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Team toughness matter far more than individual toughness: players standing up for eachother is more of a factor than one guy beating the crap out of another.

On that level the Senators are fine so I am not worried. I am a bit worried about out centres not being all that big (O'Brien, Da Costa, Turris) or not use the body a whole lot (Spezza) but other than that (Zach Smith is the only center we have that plays big), and it's not a major issue, I am happy with the behaviour the team takes.

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02-11-2013, 04:41 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
I like Boro and what he brings as much as anyone. However I believe the organization that has been hyping him was the same organization that demoted him.

Murray likes the guy's work ethic, his fearlessness, and his desire to play in the NHL. Unfortunately the rest of his game just isn't NHL ready yet.

Phillips plays more physical than most give him credit for, he's not a fighter but is 6th on the team in hits, 3rd for Dmen. Phillips also protects the puck well, with only 2 GvAs this season.

What I would like to see is Boro play more like Phillips with the puck and not try to make hitting the only thing he does. IMO if Boro can do this he will be an excellent 3rd pairing D for the Sens.
You see, I don't see returning a guy back to Bingo as a demotion. Guys get returned for lots of reasons & a demotion to me indicates that he was playing badly & I don't think he was. What if they decide to return Zibanejad tomorrow, is it still a demotion?

They had too many defencemen in Ottawa with the return of Lundin. Only two defencemen could have been sent down to Bingo without going through waivers Wiercioch & Borocop. They haven't been scoring a lot of goals recently & Wiercioch has shown even at this level, he can create some offence. Therefore, IMO he became the logical choice to keep & nothing than Boro did or did not do got him sent back to Bingo. It's a number's game & Ottawa can only keep 23 healthy players around. If they were scoring all kinds of goals & needed to stop goals against maybe they keep Boro instead. Just saying.

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02-11-2013, 04:45 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Capital O TEETEE 613 View Post
..but if we score too much then players like Orr get more ice..Then we'll need more toughness to protect our new found high scorers..

the only way around this is to stay within a goal...wait isnt that whats is happening??Except were losing by one goal...

in conclusion we either need more toughness, or we have to win every game by one or two goals.
So toughness in your opinion is fighters, right?

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02-11-2013, 04:57 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
You see, I don't see returning a guy back to Bingo as a demotion. Guys get returned for lots of reasons & a demotion to me indicates that he was playing badly & I don't think he was. What if they decide to return Zibanejad tomorrow, is it still a demotion?

They had too many defencemen in Ottawa with the return of Lundin. Only two defencemen could have been sent down to Bingo without going through waivers Wiercioch & Borocop. They haven't been scoring a lot of goals recently & Wiercioch has shown even at this level, he can create some offence. Therefore, IMO he became the logical choice to keep & nothing than Boro did or did not do got him sent back to Bingo. It's a number's game & Ottawa can only keep 23 healthy players around. If they were scoring all kinds of goals & needed to stop goals against maybe they keep Boro instead. Just saying.
Going from the NHL to the AHL is a demotion, the reasons for the demotion can be varied.

In this case the Sens decided PW was the better option than Boro, with MacLean stating "Borowiecki needs to go down and improve his game. Borowiecki has the physical side of his game down, but needs to improve his puck moving abilities."

From your perspective you feel Boro was playing well, seems MacLean doesn't see it as one dimensional as you.

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02-11-2013, 05:05 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by topshelfie View Post
Just for fun, maybe people could list the players on our team that are not "tough"?
Alfie(at times)
Greening
Condra
Regin
Da Costa(in general)
Michalek(when hes in ghost mode)
Turris
Karlsson
Gonchar
Weircoch

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02-11-2013, 05:18 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Toronto doesn't concern me anymore than any other team.

What does concern me is the current lack of scoring.

IMO if Ottawa scores as they should, then players like Orr don't get but a few minutes of ice time in a game and when they do just ignore them.
It isn't one or the other. Ottawa has to start scoring, and they have to play a more physical game. It's not just Toronto, everybody in the division is playing more physical than them, even Montreal. Never mind toughness and fighting, Ottawa isn't even finishing their checks half the time. I think that McLean will address it as best he can, but I don't see a lot of options available to him other than crack the whip a lot more.

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02-11-2013, 05:22 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
So toughness in your opinion is fighters, right?
No.

But for that last post, sort of.

I would like a 13 forward that is a big feared fighter. Only to be used when needed.

Overall this team is tough, but it seems that they forget sometimes. Like last game when Smith could of ended Ladd's Career, you know when Ladd slowly cut to the middle train track style..and Smith went for the poke check.

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02-11-2013, 05:35 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by FolignoQuantumLeap View Post
Can't we postpone this debate until a team actually bullies Ottawa or beats us down physically? It seems like an incredibly one sided debate at this time.
In case you missed the last game (and a couple other games this season), it was void of any physical contact and was quite honestly one of the most boring games as a Senators fan I have ever witnessed. I think the lack of intensity justifies a discussion just as much as taking a beat down.

Lastly, who made you debate judge? There's solid discussion in this thread, I fail to see an 'incredibly one-sided debate' here. Both sides have presented opinions and continue to discuss those opinions.

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02-11-2013, 05:40 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by lafite View Post
A guy like Carkner was more valuable for what didn't happen when he was in the line-up. A guy like that makes guys on his team braver, and guys on the other team think twice about roughing up the not so tough guys. That's why the Islanders gave him a nice contract.

Right now, Colton Orr is playing regularly for Toronto, and they have that other big tough guy too, Mc somebody. I.m not looking forward to the Ottawa/Toronto game the way things have been going lately.
Agreed!

Carkner sure came in handy against the Rangers when they tried to intimidate Karlsson in Round 1.
We will miss that toughness this year come playoff time.

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02-11-2013, 05:53 PM
  #94
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In case you missed the last game (and a couple other games this season), it was void of any physical contact and was quite honestly one of the most boring games as a Senators fan I have ever witnessed. I think the lack of intensity justifies a discussion just as much as taking a beat down.

Lastly, who made you debate judge? There's solid discussion in this thread, I fail to see an 'incredibly one-sided debate' here. Both sides have presented opinions and continue to discuss those opinions.
Generally speaking, trap hockey or whatever you want to call it is boring. Winnipeg didn't play a physical game either and yet they came away with the 2 points. The team needed to break the trap, not throw more hits. What concerns me more is we can't gain the opposition's blueline without one of Turris, Karlsson or Alfredsson on the ice. Teams may start taking liberties with these guys if we can't punish the opposition on the PP.

Having more guys who can run around throwing borderline hits and fight isn't going to solve these problems. If anything we need more of these so called soft players. It seems to be working alright for Chicago in the big tough western conference.

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02-11-2013, 06:05 PM
  #95
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The only thing that the Senators needed to do last game to win was complete a freakin' pass

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02-11-2013, 06:38 PM
  #96
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Serious question: can anyone name me a tougher team than the Columbus Blue Jackets aside from the Bruins?

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02-11-2013, 07:11 PM
  #97
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Other teams know we're tough. We can get by on reputation.

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02-11-2013, 07:44 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by lafite View Post
It isn't one or the other. Ottawa has to start scoring, and they have to play a more physical game. It's not just Toronto, everybody in the division is playing more physical than them, even Montreal. Never mind toughness and fighting, Ottawa isn't even finishing their checks half the time. I think that McLean will address it as best he can, but I don't see a lot of options available to him other than crack the whip a lot more.
Stats on hits say otherwise, Ottawa is 9th with only TO ahead of them in their division.

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02-11-2013, 08:21 PM
  #99
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Stats on hits say otherwise, Ottawa is 9th with only TO ahead of them in their division.
NHL stats guys now record European figure skating nudges as hits.

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02-11-2013, 08:33 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by FolignoQuantumLeap View Post
Generally speaking, trap hockey or whatever you want to call it is boring. Winnipeg didn't play a physical game either and yet they came away with the 2 points. The team needed to break the trap, not throw more hits. What concerns me more is we can't gain the opposition's blueline without one of Turris, Karlsson or Alfredsson on the ice. Teams may start taking liberties with these guys if we can't punish the opposition on the PP.

Having more guys who can run around throwing borderline hits and fight isn't going to solve these problems. If anything we need more of these so called soft players. It seems to be working alright for Chicago in the big tough western conference.
I agree with your first paragraph. As for the second, I agree that we need more skilled players, but we're in year 2 of a rebuild. It's kind of expected that we have no top-end depth at the moment. Championship teams have that right balance of skill/grit, and we currently lack both.

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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Stats on hits say otherwise, Ottawa is 9th with only TO ahead of them in their division.
Stats mean nothing, Boston is clearly a tougher team.

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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
The only thing that the Senators needed to do last game to win was complete a freakin' pass
And possibly throw a hit when nothing else was working?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FolignoQuantumLeap View Post
Serious question: can anyone name me a tougher team than the Columbus Blue Jackets aside from the Bruins?
Islanders, Rangers, Philly, Toronto, Bruins are regarded as the toughest teams in the NHL currently..

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Other teams know we're tough. We can get by on reputation.
We have a reputation as a tough team? I didn't know that. I think we're below average in the toughness department..

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