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Ryan Kesler

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Old
02-11-2013, 05:33 PM
  #101
Peter Griffin
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The Canucks aren't trade Kesler for a downgrade, makes zero sense.

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02-11-2013, 06:17 PM
  #102
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Off the Richards/Kesler comparison..

At the time of the Richards trade, wasn't Brayden Schenn regarded as the/one of the best prospects in hockey?

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02-11-2013, 06:24 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
True about the Selke nominations. Koivus career ppg is 0.74 and Keslers in 0.60. In Keslers best year is point toal is only 4 higher than Koivus

Kelsers ppg in 2009-10 0.91 (75 pts)
Kovius ppg in 2009-10 0.888 (71 pts)

Kesler 2010-11 0.89 ppg
Koivu 2008-09 0.84 ppg
I think career PPG is a pretty poor indicator in this case.

Kesler's career PPG is pretty skewed because of his early years (he was put in the NHL at 19 when the Canucks were a bottom feeder and didn't contribute much offense) - Koivu didn't come to the NHL until he was 22 and had gained a lot of experience in the Europe and in the AHL before coming in. Kesler has also played hurt way too much (this has been a point of discussion in Vancouver and this year he has seemingly been told to take his time before coming back this time), I'm not sure if Koivu has played hurt a lot but he has actually missed a lot of time with injury (68 games in the last 5 years) while Kesler seems to try and play through them way too much (Kesler has had major surgeries three off-seasons in a row but has only missed 7 games in 5 years - including coming back a month and a half early from an injury last year).

I'd be prepared to say that Koivu and Kesler are probably pretty much equivalent offensively with Kesler being better defensively and being on a significantly cheaper contract...either way, I certainly wouldn't add to Kesler for Koivu.

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Old
02-11-2013, 06:30 PM
  #104
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Makes zero sense to trade Kesler...

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02-11-2013, 06:36 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Steve Bennett View Post
Hmmm maybe I undervalued that trade proposal, sorry I didn't mean to offend - I'm just a big supporter of the Canucks. And yeah a 1st could be part of that deal:

to det Kesler and Vcr 1st rd pick

to VANCOUVER CANUCKS: Datsyuk, Bertuzzi, 2nd rd pick

Better?



laugh out loud, yeah that would probably be considered ridiculous... They'd have to throw in a pick or something...
No thanks on Dats. Vancouver doesn't need to get older more expensive and keep all the injury concerns. Dats hasn't been the healthiest player the last few years and with Vancouver's winning window I'd think we'd rather move our older players before bringing in even older guys.

This has nothing to do with ability or value, it's strictly on needs. Vancouver needs Kesler more than anything else. The only thing that makes us consider moving him is a younger cheaper replacement for Kesler who will be equally as good or better soon.

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02-11-2013, 07:01 PM
  #106
Sergei Shirokov
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Originally Posted by AlvintheChoster View Post
Off the Richards/Kesler comparison..

At the time of the Richards trade, wasn't Brayden Schenn regarded as the/one of the best prospects in hockey?
Yes he was, and they also managed to get Simmonds.

We would be looking at a similar package for Kesler, but really even then (unless the package is just remarkably good) it doesn't make much sense for us to trade him.

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02-11-2013, 07:13 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by mstad101 View Post
No thanks on Dats. Vancouver doesn't need to get older more expensive and keep all the injury concerns. Dats hasn't been the healthiest player the last few years and with Vancouver's winning window I'd think we'd rather move our older players before bringing in even older guys.

This has nothing to do with ability or value, it's strictly on needs. Vancouver needs Kesler more than anything else. The only thing that makes us consider moving him is a younger cheaper replacement for Kesler who will be equally as good or better soon.
I grudgingly accept defeat. You proved me wrong and I retract the trade proposal. Good on you friend! Keep the Kes!!!

Man I love this team!


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Old
02-11-2013, 07:27 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Stepan had more points last year. You can't expect great value when you're selling low.
Marc Staal for Ballard, Lack and 2nd then? Ballard had more points last year.

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02-11-2013, 07:33 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
I think this makes the Canucks worse... Ranger win that trade I believe.
Well, I'm assuming Kesler is being moved for a 'shakeup' like Philadelphia did with Richards? This trade is very similar to the Mike Richards to Los Angeles trade. But yeah, it does make the Canucks worse. I guess to make the Canucks better if dealing Kesler, you'd need a #1C in return.

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02-11-2013, 07:37 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Not even close in my opinion. Quantity for quality in its purest form.
How so?

I'd say all Stepan is a nice basis you can expect in a return for a 1st line player. He's improved every year since being drafted, he led the WJC team in points, had a 40 pt rookie season as a 3C, had a 50+ point season in his sophomore season with added defensive responsibility. His upside is a high-end 2nd line center playing in all situations. McIlrath/Skjei are obviously very raw players right now, but both are top defenseman prospects.

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02-11-2013, 07:39 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
Yes he was, and they also managed to get Simmonds.

We would be looking at a similar package for Kesler, but really even then (unless the package is just remarkably good) it doesn't make much sense for us to trade him.
Stepan has more value now than Schenn did then. Proven NHL 2nd line player at the age of 21.

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02-11-2013, 07:42 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
How so?

I'd say all Stepan is a nice basis you can expect in a return for a 1st line player. He's improved every year since being drafted, he led the WJC team in points, had a 40 pt rookie season as a 3C, had a 50+ point season in his sophomore season with added defensive responsibility. His upside is a high-end 2nd line center playing in all situations. McIlrath/Skjei are obviously very raw players right now, but both are top defenseman prospects.
How is it quantity for quality or how is it not close?

It's quantity for quality because there's one NHL player and B prospect + 2nd round pick for a very, very good player. It's not even close because Stanley Cup contenders don't trade their best players away for a downgrade + futures unless there are other issues.

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Old
02-11-2013, 08:04 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Sayonara77 View Post
All of the proposals being suggested are a complete waste of time as gillis would not hesitate to hang up the phone if said offers were made. No we are not trading him for koivu, perry or whoever.

We are not dealing our top line forward, simple as that.

@ the guy who called him a one hit wonder, give your head a shake.
Until he does it again, he's a one hit wonder, is he not? I gave that simply for arguments sake. He's not a perennial 40 goalscoring Selke winner, he's a ONE TIME winner. Moreover, I've yet to insult Kesler or downplay his talents. He's a very good player that I'd love to have.

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Old
02-11-2013, 08:09 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post

You forgot the back to back 70+ point seasons.
Know who else had back to back 70+ seasons, including 84 points in one? Scott Gomez. Is he a 70+ point player now? Nope. Again, they're NOT similar players in really any regard, however claiming that he's worth so much because he's scored 40 once, and had two 70+ point seasons, is ridiculous.

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02-11-2013, 08:10 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
Good, cause trading him doesn't make sense from our perspective either.

Kesler would garner a Richards/Carter like return.

Oh and I agree with you, even with the contract. Weber > Kesler.

Although Kesler is more valuable than alot think.
Ermm... I totally agree with everything you've said in this post.

People are simply putting words in my mouth in this thread. He's worth pretty much exactly what I thought, approximately the same as Richards!

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02-11-2013, 08:14 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
Where exactly in all these posts have you said ANYTHING that contributes to the conversation? You've made fun of the Sharks, called me a troll, made egregious proposals and that's the extent of what you've accomplished. Good job! Try responding to my points, rather than twisting my words and making erroneous assumptions.
His points about the Sharks are well taken. The Sharks have proved over and over that they are great during the regular season , but fail in the playoffs. Joe Thorton can do it in the regular season, but seldom does it in the playoffs. He sucked at the 2010 Winter Olympics. The same claim can be made about the Sedins. So far they haven't produced in the playoffs the way they have in the regular season. Until they do, the claim is justified. The Sharks are a great regular season team, but until they at least make the SCF, it is justified to dis them. As for Montreal, they are just like Toronto, yesterday's team. Yes they do have the most cups, yes they dominated after expansion, however it is coming up to 30 years since they won the cup. Vancouver doesn't have any cups, but they made a final recently and have had a great team for several years. That said, until they win the cup, they are just another good team. Boston had a good team in the late 70's but never won the cup. Who remembers that team today outside of Bruin and Hab fans?

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02-11-2013, 08:15 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
I think career PPG is a pretty poor indicator in this case.

Kesler's career PPG is pretty skewed because of his early years (he was put in the NHL at 19 when the Canucks were a bottom feeder and didn't contribute much offense) - Koivu didn't come to the NHL until he was 22 and had gained a lot of experience in the Europe and in the AHL before coming in. Kesler has also played hurt way too much (this has been a point of discussion in Vancouver and this year he has seemingly been told to take his time before coming back this time), I'm not sure if Koivu has played hurt a lot but he has actually missed a lot of time with injury (68 games in the last 5 years) while Kesler seems to try and play through them way too much (Kesler has had major surgeries three off-seasons in a row but has only missed 7 games in 5 years - including coming back a month and a half early from an injury last year).

I'd be prepared to say that Koivu and Kesler are probably pretty much equivalent offensively with Kesler being better defensively and being on a significantly cheaper contract...either way, I certainly wouldn't add to Kesler for Koivu.
Also take into account for the fact that Vancouver is one of the highest scoring teams in the league... Minnesota... isn't even close. I agree with your conclusion though, they're worth about the same.

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02-11-2013, 08:20 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
His points about the Sharks are well taken. The Sharks have proved over and over that they are great during the regular season , but fail in the playoffs. Joe Thorton can do it in the regular season, but seldom does it in the playoffs. He sucked at the 2010 Winter Olympics. The same claim can be made about the Sedins. So far they haven't produced in the playoffs the way they have in the regular season. Until they do, the claim is justified. The Sharks are a great regular season team, but until they at least make the SCF, it is justified to dis them. As for Montreal, they are just like Toronto, yesterday's team. Yes they do have the most cups, yes they dominated after expansion, however it is coming up to 30 years since they won the cup. Vancouver doesn't have any cups, but they made a final recently and have had a great team for several years. That said, until they win the cup, they are just another good team. Boston had a good team in the late 70's but never won the cup. Who remembers that team today outside of Bruin and Hab fans?
Clearly, you haven't watched any Sharks games and base your opinion off HF posters and the media. Joe Thornton, Brent Burns and Niemi were the ONLY guys who showed up against the Blues last year. Joe shook that choker label years back, it's the team that fails him, not the other way around. Any avid Sharks fans will agree.

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02-11-2013, 08:24 PM
  #119
Sergei Shirokov
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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
Stepan has more value now than Schenn did then. Proven NHL 2nd line player at the age of 21.
It's not him it is the other things. The Carter/Richards deals both had a young roster player (Voracek and Simmonds) and a young blue chip prospect/High Pick which got a young blue chipper.

You have the young roster player down pat with Stepan, but we need a top prospect aswell to make the deal happen. Especially now since trading Kes doesn't make much sense for us.

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02-11-2013, 08:27 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
Ermm... I totally agree with everything you've said in this post.

People are simply putting words in my mouth in this thread. He's worth pretty much exactly what I thought, approximately the same as Richards!
Yeah I agree, although if Kesler can return to form I would think he is a bit better than Richards since he has been better offensively and has a much much better contract.

Something Richards/Carter like would be the minimum return. That's what it would take.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
Know who else had back to back 70+ seasons, including 84 points in one? Scott Gomez. Is he a 70+ point player now? Nope. Again, they're NOT similar players in really any regard, however claiming that he's worth so much because he's scored 40 once, and had two 70+ point seasons, is ridiculous.
All I am saying is that isn't not like his 40 goal season was his only glimpse of high end production, and that he did put up his highest point totals the year before playing 2nd line and 2nd PP. So he is worth that much, his 10/11 year wasn't a career season that he doesn't have the ability to match.

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02-11-2013, 08:28 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
Clearly, you haven't watched any Sharks games and base your opinion off HF posters and the media. Joe Thornton, Brent Burns and Niemi were the ONLY guys who showed up against the Blues last year. Joe shook that choker label years back, it's the team that fails him, not the other way around. Any avid Sharks fans will agree.
May I suggest a course in remedial reading. I said seldom done it in the playoffs! Besides my point is dissing the Sharks is justified. They have never got by a conference final. Until they do, putting them down is justified!
Wizerman is right you are a troll. You claim words are put in your mouth and people ignore your points and then do exactly the same thing. Troll on!

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02-11-2013, 08:41 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
Yeah I agree, although if Kesler can return to form I would think he is a bit better than Richards since he has been better offensively and has a much much better contract.

Something Richards/Carter like would be the minimum return. That's what it would take.



All I am saying is that isn't not like his 40 goal season was his only glimpse of high end production, and that he did put up his highest point totals the year before playing 2nd line and 2nd PP. So he is worth that much, his 10/11 year wasn't a career season that he doesn't have the ability to match.
1. Fair enough, the Canucks wouldn't be insane to demand that, however I can't see any teams offering that. I think we can conclude he's worth about the same as Richards.

2. True, I think he does have high end offensive talent, however outside of that one season, he hasn't even broken the 30 goal mark. As well, he's played on an offensive juggernaut the past few seasons. But we seem to have reached an agreement as to his value, so let's end this.

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02-11-2013, 08:46 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
May I suggest a course in remedial reading. I said seldom done it in the playoffs! Besides my point is dissing the Sharks is justified. They have never got by a conference final. Until they do, putting them down is justified!
Wizerman is right you are a troll. You claim words are put in your mouth and people ignore your points and then do exactly the same thing. Troll on!
Might I suggest you take a course in English? Normally, I end my questions with a little symbol named a question mark. Do multiple playoffs count as "seldom?" In that case, he "seldom" shows up in the playoffs. So by your logic, the team MUST reach the Stanley Cup Final or else they're a ****** team? Hahahahaha you're out of your mind pal. I've given fair points, only to have people insult me without rebuttal. The stupidity around here honestly astounds me sometimes.

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02-11-2013, 08:48 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
1. Fair enough, the Canucks wouldn't be insane to demand that, however I can't see any teams offering that. I think we can conclude he's worth about the same as Richards.

2. True, I think he does have high end offensive talent, however outside of that one season, he hasn't even broken the 30 goal mark. As well, he's played on an offensive juggernaut the past few seasons. But we seem to have reached an agreement as to his value, so let's end this.
1. Yeah, it doesn't make sense for us to do it, and I don't see anyone who is in the position to make that move right now.

2. Sure, Although I thought we were agreeing not arguing. Lol

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02-11-2013, 08:55 PM
  #125
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Ok, I see that many Canucks fans are overrating Kesler based on his Selke season. His value is lower because of injuries and an inablity to repeat his season since. He still has the abliity to, but the team that acquires him takes on the inherent risk of never seeing the "Selke winning Kesler".

Alternatively, I have seen some horrific proposals that made me check my twitter feed to see if he had asked for a trade. We don't want a quantity for quality trade, I repeat we do not want a quantity for Kesler. Now that we have gotten that out of the way, I doubt Kesler moved regardless if we were offered fair value but I don't intend to spew the same "only if it's an overpayment" **** that's common on the trade forum so I will template and give examples of what I would like to see as a Canucks fan.

1) Blue chip + first

Ex- Mark scheifele + cond first (top 10 protected)

2) Servicable 2nd line centre + first/prospect valuing at a first

ex- Grabovski and a first

3) Young player with 2nd line + potential and a first/2nd depending on the player

Ex- Brayden Schenn + 1st/2nd (depending on how Kesler rebounds and how Schenn plays assuming an offseason trade)


Last edited by Linden: 02-11-2013 at 09:13 PM. Reason: FORGOT A COMMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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