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All Encompassing Tanking/Rebuilding/Selling at Deadline Thread 2.0

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Old
02-11-2013, 11:42 PM
  #676
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
If detroit offers a 2nd rounder for moen like they did last year do you make the trade?
It's very tempting....

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02-11-2013, 11:51 PM
  #677
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If detroit offers a 2nd rounder for moen like they did last year do you make the trade?
To have another 2nd rounder in this draft is too much to pass on. We could easily use them in a package to secure another first rounder in a deep draft

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02-12-2013, 02:16 AM
  #678
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If detroit offers a 2nd rounder for moen like they did last year do you make the trade?
modified NTC.

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02-12-2013, 02:19 AM
  #679
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To have another 2nd rounder in this draft is too much to pass on. We could easily use them in a package to secure another first rounder in a deep draft
hey, I got the 42nd and 58th pick, I'll trade em for your top 20 pick, a'right ?




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02-12-2013, 02:46 AM
  #680
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If detroit offers a 2nd rounder for moen like they did last year do you make the trade?
Do bears **** in the woods and wipe their bum with rabbits?

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02-12-2013, 04:44 AM
  #681
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Really? Wow. I guess we're in great shape then. I wonder why we came in 15th last year?
You were the one who brought up not having ANY powerforwards. I was just pointing out you were wrong.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I'm sure Cole wouldn't have minded being traded away from a 15th place team. Besides it would've been up to him to waive his NTC. It's his right to void any deals but we should've gone to him and asked and I doubt that happened.
Ever think that maybe people don't like uprooting their family and moving all the time. Also bear in mind that by asking him we are telling him he's no longer part of our plan. That might hurt his motivation. You need to stop thinking of players as commodities and realize they are people.

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And I'm telling you you're being silly. You keep trying to say tank for one pick or one particular player... it doesn't work that way.

You trade for picks and you trade for prospects. You play younger players and you'll probably draft high. SOME of those picks won't work out man. But some will. Just because say... Hickey doesn't work out doesn't mean that all those picks won't. They got Doughty and Kopitar out of it.


Those prospects are worth something aren't they? The picks will be worth something. And who the hell are you to say we won't get a top five when we drafted 3rd last season?

You keep trying to say that we should PLAN to draft top five... it doesn't work that way. The focus is on the prospects we get back man. Where we finish in the standings is besides the point.

So what? It worked.

Like I said, you can tank for four years and only get one superstar. But that one superstar still raises your cup odds significantly.
I'm not sure how to make this more clear. We are looking at how they acquired the core players that won them cup in the hopes of repeating what they did right? So what is the breakdown? I have it at.

Trades: 4 - Richards, Williams, Carter, Penner
Strong Mid-Late picks: 2 - Kopitar, Brown
UFA Signings: 2 - Mitchell, Scuderi (Arguable if these are core)
Tank Picks: 1 - Doughty
Late Round Gems: 1 - Quick

It's pretty clear to me the team was build off of strong drafting outside of the top 10 and solid trades.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Dude, bottom line is that most cup teams are rebuilds. You keep coming up with coulda shoulda woulda... doesn't matter. What matters is that rebuilds win cups.
I've seen you in the past attribute the recent Detroit cups to Yzerman and the Detroit Dead things. If you go back far enough then all teams are rebuilds, if we win a cup anytime soon you will point out Galchenyuk, Price, and trading Rivet as proof that we rebuilt and therefore all cup winners are rebuilds.


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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Your question is a silly one. We aren't the Coyotes and we're not an expansion team.

My philosophy is that if you don't have a realistic shot at a cup with your team as constructed for now or the immediate future that you do what you have to in order to win. Taking an expansion team from scratch is a tough road to go down but it's interesting that several expansion teams have won cups since our last cup win.
Fine let me rephrase, what's the better base to build a cup contender with? A playoff team that usually finishes 6-8th and has a bunch of good to great players but no superstars and a good mix of youth/vets. Or a team in the basement who have 2-3 top 3 draft picks but everyone else are 3rd/4th liners.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
We've tried to avoid rebuilding and all we've done is make the process longer and more painful.
If we won the cup you would be the first person claiming we are another rebuild team because we traded Rivet, and drafted Price & Galchenyuk.


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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You're arguing for the sake of it man. I'm not wasting my time debating this. There's no way he turns that deal down.

And yet the very same season Craig Rivet nets us a first and Josh Gorges...
An expected late first and a fringe NHLer who went undrafted a few seasons ago is no where near the value that Ryan had. If we traded Souray we could have gotten a 1st and either a young player who was thought of as better than Gorges or a good prospect (ie Someone who was recently drafted with a mid/late 1st and is considered on track)

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
He's 22 years old and already has 7 goals on the season. I don't know about you but I think he'll probably get better as he gets older and in four years he'll be a better player than he is now.

Trading for the best young prospects you can is a good idea dude. It's a risk sure... but it's a calculated risk.

And since I proposed dealing for him years ago he's since had a concussion. That's something to be concerned about and would affect his value. But at the time he was a number 2 overall pick with size and scoring touch. YES it makes sense to try to get these kinds of players.
The cost of aquiring these players is more often than not much greater than their value because everyone sees the potential that's there. If you can get one on the cheap then absolutetly you should go for it. But for the most part you are giving up the assets it takes to get a 40g/80pt PWF, and yet only end up with a 20-30g/40-60pt winger. You say it's a calculated risk, care to show your work?


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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I don't care if he returns to form. I'm looking at the next 5 to 10 years down the road. I'm looking at how I can win a cup sometime within the next decade and younger players give me a longer window of opportunity. I trade Markov and wish him the best. I'd have no problem if he wins a cup somewhere else as long as I get a player that can help me compete for one long after he's retired.
And everytime you trade a good vet for younger players/picks you are pushing the window of opportunity further and further into the future with no guarantees that in the future that window of opportunity is better than you do right now.

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Old
02-12-2013, 05:28 AM
  #682
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Y
An expected late first and a fringe NHLer who went undrafted a few seasons ago is no where near the value that Ryan had. If we traded Souray we could have gotten a 1st and either a young player who was thought of as better than Gorges or a good prospect (ie Someone who was recently drafted with a mid/late 1st and is considered on track)
Compared to the zero we got by keeping Sourray.

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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
And everytime you trade a good vet for younger players/picks you are pushing the window of opportunity further and further into the future with no guarantees that in the future that window of opportunity is better than you do right now.
It's not pushing anything back.

Right now, with this weak Habs team, we know with quasi-absolute certainty that we won't win the cup in 2013 or 2014. The next 1.5 years of Gionta does not increase our odds of winning, because multiplying any number by zero yields zero.

However, if we acquire young roster players and cap space and we move up from drafting 9th overall to 3rd overall by playing AHLers, we increase our odds for the 2015-2020 cup contention window.

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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
I've seen you in the past attribute the recent Detroit cups to Yzerman and the Detroit Dead things. If you go back far enough then all teams are rebuilds, if we win a cup anytime soon you will point out Galchenyuk, Price, and trading Rivet as proof that we rebuilt and therefore all cup winners are rebuilds.
Most people on these boards state the core as:

Price, Galchenyuk, Pacioretty, Subban;

3 of those 4 are rebuilding/tanking pieces, sort of in the case of Price. We would not have drafted Galchenyuk if Gauthier had kept Gill, Kostitsyn, and Cammalleri.

Some of us want to add one more piece, a Drouin-type player.


Last edited by DAChampion: 02-12-2013 at 05:36 AM.
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Old
02-12-2013, 08:30 AM
  #683
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Compared to the zero we got by keeping Sourray.
We did try to re-sign Souray, and if Gainey was willing to negotiate during the season we likely would have re-signed him. But the point I was trying to make was that people make it seem as if trading Souray would've netted us a great prospect like Bobby Ryan and that's highly unlikely. We would probably be in a pretty similar situation as we are right now. If he had another mid-20s Higgins/Kostitsyn it wouldn't make a huge difference.


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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
It's not pushing anything back.

Right now, with this weak Habs team, we know with quasi-absolute certainty that we won't win the cup in 2013 or 2014. The next 1.5 years of Gionta does not increase our odds of winning, because multiplying any number by zero yields zero.

However, if we acquire young roster players and cap space and we move up from drafting 9th overall to 3rd overall by playing AHLers, we increase our odds for the 2015-2020 cup contention window.
We don't have a zero percent chance though, it's more like 1-2%. How do you know we won't re-sign Gionta after his contract ends, if he's still putting up around 25 goals and 50pts then it's quite likely we will try to re-sign him. In fact he's good enough defensively that he could transition to the 3rd line once he slips out of the top 6 (Depending on cap hit of course). Not to mention he's a great mentor for Gallagher. Right now Gallagher is sheltered and producing, if he has to ride shotgun on Plec's line he would more than likely struggle which could hurt his development.


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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Most people on these boards state the core as:

Price, Galchenyuk, Pacioretty, Subban;

3 of those 4 are rebuilding/tanking pieces, sort of in the case of Price. We would not have drafted Galchenyuk if Gauthier had kept Gill, Kostitsyn, and Cammalleri.

Some of us want to add one more piece, a Drouin-type player.
Price was luck more than anything, but this is kinda of my point. We've never tried to do a 'proper' rebuild, every year we've tried for the playoffs, we've traded numerous 2nd round picks for rentals, we've let UFAs go for nothing, etc... Yet we've drafted a franchise goalie, 2 first-line players, and a top-pairing defenceman within the last 7 years. What's the point of tanking if we can get a great core anyways?

When we are out of the playoffs (Last year) or if a player no longer fits (Rivet, Cammalleri) then we should trade them away for picks/prospects. But I draw the line when we are in the playoffs, and talking about players that are contributing.

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Old
02-12-2013, 09:00 AM
  #684
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Just this year OK? Please? This is 2013 boys! This is a 2003 repeat. Teams that will make the right choices this year, will have a chance at being a great team for the next 10 years especially if you already had started some kind of rebuild.
That would be a hell of a thing. Wilkpedia does a breakdown of that draft and 14 of the 30 guys taken in round one turned into All-Stars or NHL -AllStars. In the 2nd round 5 of the 30 turned out to be All-Stars or NHL-AllStars. I only checked the next few rounds after that and there were 0, so you needed get them in the top 2 rounds of what I saw, especially no surprise , in the first.

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02-12-2013, 09:17 AM
  #685
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
You were the one who brought up not having ANY powerforwards. I was just pointing out you were wrong.
We don't have any power forwards man. You think Max is a power forward? He's not.

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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Ever think that maybe people don't like uprooting their family and moving all the time. Also bear in mind that by asking him we are telling him he's no longer part of our plan. That might hurt his motivation. You need to stop thinking of players as commodities and realize they are people.
They are people making 5 million a year who want to win cups. When you are in 15th place you go to the guy and ask if he's willing to move. If not, no problem. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with asking the guy.

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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
I'm not sure how to make this more clear. We are looking at how they acquired the core players that won them cup in the hopes of repeating what they did right? So what is the breakdown? I have it at.

Trades: 4 - Richards, Williams, Carter, Penner
Strong Mid-Late picks: 2 - Kopitar, Brown
UFA Signings: 2 - Mitchell, Scuderi (Arguable if these are core)
Tank Picks: 1 - Doughty
Late Round Gems: 1 - Quick

It's pretty clear to me the team was build off of strong drafting outside of the top 10 and solid trades.
Dude... of course teams are going to be built mostly via other means. There are only so many top picks to go around. You can't have team built with 26 top picks.

Point is that the top picks had leading roles in those wins. It's hard enough to win the cup, superstars are the margin of difference between one club and another. Nobody is saying that only top picks win dude. We're saying that trading for prospects and getting top picks will be the difference maker. You still have to build a good team.

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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
I've seen you in the past attribute the recent Detroit cups to Yzerman and the Detroit Dead things.
Detroit has been winning a long, long time. You have to go back to the early 90s when they sucked. How did they get there? They tanked. Then they got one of the best payers ever and continued via the draft. Yzerman was obviously key to them winning and so were those later picks. Once they built that team they continued to draft well.

I'm all for drafting Lidstrom in the 3rd round btw. Let's just tell our team to do it this year.

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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
If you go back far enough then all teams are rebuilds, if we win a cup anytime soon you will point out Galchenyuk, Price, and trading Rivet as proof that we rebuilt and therefore all cup winners are rebuilds.
Not all teams are rebuilds. 3 out of the past 7 weren't rebuilds. You don't HAVE to rebuild to win and we've seen this. But rebuilding does work.

As for us. Can you see us wininng a cup without Price, Max and Galchenyuk playing key roles?

For the first time in 20 years we can honestly view our team as rebuilding the classic way and even in this case we got super lucky with a one time top five pick.

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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Fine let me rephrase, what's the better base to build a cup contender with? A playoff team that usually finishes 6-8th and has a bunch of good to great players but no superstars and a good mix of youth/vets. Or a team in the basement who have 2-3 top 3 draft picks but everyone else are 3rd/4th liners.
The team in the basement will continue to draft high and probably suck for a couple of years and then will leapfrog the mediocre team at some point. The mediocre team is sitting in 6th to 8th and will continue to draft middle of the pack without making rebuild moves. I'd rather be in a position of acquiring top talent.

And if I were sitting there perpetually in 8th, I'd rebuild the team rather than perpetuate medicority.

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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
If we won the cup you would be the first person claiming we are another rebuild team because we traded Rivet, and drafted Price & Galchenyuk.
If we win the cup it will be in large part due to Price and Galchenyuk.

Have you not figured this out yet? Without those guys we have NO chance. Max is also a rebuild move btw.

That doesn't mean Subban wouldn't play a key role or some other FA that we may sign down the road. It's just that we'll need those top picks playing key roles for us.
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
An expected late first and a fringe NHLer who went undrafted a few seasons ago is no where near the value that Ryan had. If we traded Souray we could have gotten a 1st and either a young player who was thought of as better than Gorges or a good prospect (ie Someone who was recently drafted with a mid/late 1st and is considered on track)
Again, I'm not arguing with you on this. No way the Ducks turn down Koivu and Souray for him. And you're sitting there trying to say we would've wasted Souray for a late 1st when we let him walk for zero...

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The cost of aquiring these players is more often than not much greater than their value because everyone sees the potential that's there. If you can get one on the cheap then absolutetly you should go for it. But for the most part you are giving up the assets it takes to get a 40g/80pt PWF, and yet only end up with a 20-30g/40-60pt winger. You say it's a calculated risk, care to show your work?)
If you aren't getting the value you want, then don't make the trade.

I don't care how much double talk you want to use here though Markov has value and teams would be willing to pay for him.

As for our other vets, this year is being compared to 2003. A late first this year is like a top ten most other years. We should be trying to get what we can for our vets.
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And everytime you trade a good vet for younger players/picks you are pushing the window of opportunity further and further into the future with no guarantees that in the future that window of opportunity is better than you do right now.
Stop with this "no guarantees" ********. Unless you're willing to tell me that there's a guarantee that will win a cup with our current squad, it doesn't mean ****.

As for the window of opportunity... you think it's there now? You think we can win a cup this year? Next year?

No right? At best it's three years away so dealing for a prospect now who will be three years older is a smart move because you've now extended the window for winning much longer than you would with a 34 year old player who's going to be retired in five or six years.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 02-12-2013 at 09:22 AM.
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Old
02-12-2013, 09:39 AM
  #686
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Compared to the zero we got by keeping Sourray.



It's not pushing anything back.

Right now, with this weak Habs team, we know with quasi-absolute certainty that we won't win the cup in 2013 or 2014. The next 1.5 years of Gionta does not increase our odds of winning, because multiplying any number by zero yields zero.

However, if we acquire young roster players and cap space and we move up from drafting 9th overall to 3rd overall by playing AHLers, we increase our odds for the 2015-2020 cup contention window.


Most people on these boards state the core as:

Price, Galchenyuk, Pacioretty, Subban;

3 of those 4 are rebuilding/tanking pieces, sort of in the case of Price. We would not have drafted Galchenyuk if Gauthier had kept Gill, Kostitsyn, and Cammalleri.

Some of us want to add one more piece, a Drouin-type player.
proof ?

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02-12-2013, 09:45 AM
  #687
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I would have liked to put Gallagher in the must keep, but then I thought, if a guy like Perry is available, would I deal him, and the answer is yes.
You would trade a 20 year old with big offensive potential for a rental?

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02-12-2013, 09:50 AM
  #688
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I think in terms of buying, selling or moving on from veterans, hopefully they take at least another month to evaluate things. I think by mid March we'll know if we still ahve a team resembling 11-12 or if we have a much better, playoff calibre #5-6-7-8 type seed...OR if we are in between in the #9-12 range.

I don't see Bergevin trading away any future core players to get a veteran or two at the deadline but I could see a 3rd to 5th rounder going to get a big stay at home for the PK. That might be offset by moving Weber or even possibly Kaberle. We definitely won't be seeing any Perry or Getzlaf type 1st and top prospect for rental type deals.

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02-12-2013, 09:57 AM
  #689
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
proof ?
we traded away 2 goalscorers and vet PK specialist, overall defensive specialist. The most probable result in losing such assets, is less goals for, more goals against. unless, the least probable scenario happens, your replacing rookies outperform the previous vets. Which wasn't the case last season, and were able to draft 3rd.

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02-12-2013, 09:57 AM
  #690
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
proof ?
There is no mathematic proof ^^
I tend to agree with you

habs ended with 78 pts in 82 games

Cammalleri traded jan 12th
habs had 39 pts in 43 games (74pts/82 games)

Gill Traded Feb 17th
habs had 58pts in 59 games (80pts/82 games)

Andrei Feb 27th
habs had 58pts in 63 games (76pts/82 games)

habs sucked all year long

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02-12-2013, 09:59 AM
  #691
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we traded away 2 goalscorers and vet PK specialist, overall defensive specialist. The most probable result in losing such assets, is less goals for, more goals against. unless, the least probable scenario happens, your replacing rookies outperform the previous vets. Which wasn't the case last season, and were able to draft 3rd.
we traded away two goal scorer who werent scoring, and once our PK specialist left, we remain one of the top PK teams...

so...

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02-12-2013, 10:05 AM
  #692
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
we traded away two goal scorer who werent scoring, and once our PK specialist left, we remain one of the top PK teams...

so...
they were still 'goal scorers', which is the reason they had value to be traded.

Point being, we digressed when we traded those players. Hard to explain something so obvious.

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02-12-2013, 10:07 AM
  #693
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they were still 'goal scorers', which is the reason they had value to be traded.
a goal scorer who doesnt core doesnt bring any more to a team than let's say, a 4th liner who doesnt score...

we werent winning with them in the line-up, we werent winning without them... made no difference in the standings and to who we picked in the 1st round.

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02-12-2013, 10:13 AM
  #694
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
a goal scorer who doesnt core doesnt bring any more to a team than let's say, a 4th liner who doesnt score...

we werent winning with them in the line-up, we werent winning without them... made no difference in the standings and to who we picked in the 1st round.
if we trade Cole and Patches tomorrow, you think our chances to lose our next few games are increased? or remain the same? or decreased?


i can't say for certain what future results will be, you sure seem to.

need to have some understanding of probabilities to be able to take part in some convos.

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02-12-2013, 10:19 AM
  #695
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if we trade Cole and Patches tomorrow, you think our chances to lose our next few games are increased? or remain the same? or decreased?


i can't say for certain what future results will be, you sure seem to.

need to have some understanding of probabilities to be able to take part in some convos.
that's only cause I replied to something related to the... past!

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02-12-2013, 11:50 AM
  #696
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Dude... of course teams are going to be built mostly via other means. There are only so many top picks to go around. You can't have team built with 26 top picks.

Point is that the top picks had leading roles in those wins. It's hard enough to win the cup, superstars are the margin of difference between one club and another. Nobody is saying that only top picks win dude. We're saying that trading for prospects and getting top picks will be the difference maker. You still have to build a good team.

Not all teams are rebuilds. 3 out of the past 7 weren't rebuilds. You don't HAVE to rebuild to win and we've seen this. But rebuilding does work.

As for us. Can you see us wininng a cup without Price, Max and Galchenyuk playing key roles?
Couldn't find what the final voting results were for the Conn Smythe but I personally have Quick, Kopitar, and Brown ahead of Doughty. So I don't consider a team that has 1 high pick and that pick is the 4th most important player to be a team built on tanking.

Teams like Pittsburgh and Chicago the tank picks are the most important pieces, and there's more than 1.


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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
For the first time in 20 years we can honestly view our team as rebuilding the classic way and even in this case we got super lucky with a one time top five pick.
So after one disastrous year we are now the poster child for rebuilding the proper way? I guess you must be a huge Gauthier fan since he was the only GM we've had for the past 20+ years to understand the value of tanking.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The team in the basement will continue to draft high and probably suck for a couple of years and then will leapfrog the mediocre team at some point. The mediocre team is sitting in 6th to 8th and will continue to draft middle of the pack without making rebuild moves. I'd rather be in a position of acquiring top talent.
A team aiming for the playoffs still trades Rivet just like we did, they will still have years like last year where everything goes wrong and get a high pick anyways. You can still make rebuilding moves while being a playoff team. Rebuilding and going for the playoffs are not mutually exclusive. You might not get as much high end talent as quickly, but then again you don't need as much either because the rest of the team is so much better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
If you aren't getting the value you want, then don't make the trade.
And how do you know we haven't been doing this all along. Gainey obviously got offers for Souray. He turned them down because he wasn't getting the value he wanted. You have no idea what value Gainey needed in order to move him but still complain.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Stop with this "no guarantees" ********. Unless you're willing to tell me that there's a guarantee that will win a cup with our current squad, it doesn't mean ****.
If you don't like the word guarantees, how about even likely. Your hoping a late 1st will help us 5-10 years down the road. How many players are contributing to us right now that we're drafted over 5 years ago? The answer, only 1 Price, who was a top pick. These mid-late 1st you covet so much, they're unlikely to be around for your cup window in 5-10 years.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
As for the window of opportunity... you think it's there now? You think we can win a cup this year? Next year?

No right? At best it's three years away so dealing for a prospect now who will be three years older is a smart move because you've now extended the window for winning much longer than you would with a 34 year old player who's going to be retired in five or six years.
There's a chance this year if Price gets hot at the right time(s), beyond that it depends on how quickly Galchenyuk develops. We could quite easily get 2-3 years of Markov playing great and Galchenyuk as an elite NHLer.

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Old
02-12-2013, 12:04 PM
  #697
ECWHSWI
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for those thinking only winners are the one who tanked and got high end picks, as if losers didnt, hence who everyone should do it...

here's the list of all the team in the league without a top 5 overall pick in their line-up :

DETROIT RED WINGS.

/end of list

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02-12-2013, 12:13 PM
  #698
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We're in 13th in the league right now. Two more losses and we'll be in the top 10 for the draft. We've had a pretty easy run of games so far. When the schedule gets denser, we'll see more injuries and hopefully will tread towards a top 5. Philly, Nashville, St. Louis and LA should all leap us in the standings before the year is out. Can't wait!

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02-12-2013, 12:15 PM
  #699
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
We're in 18th in the league right now. Two more losses and we'll be in the top 7 or 8 for the draft. We've had a pretty easy run of games so far. When the schedule gets denser, we'll see more injuries and hopefully will tread towards a top 5. Can't wait!
can't wait... to start losing ?

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02-12-2013, 12:17 PM
  #700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
for those thinking only winners are the one who tanked and got high end picks, as if losers didnt, hence who everyone should do it...

here's the list of all the team in the league without a top 5 overall pick in their line-up :

DETROIT RED WINGS.

/end of list
ouch!!!!!!how are the tankers (i mean quitters) gonna respond to that??

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