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Team Toughness or lack thereof

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Old
02-11-2013, 08:34 PM
  #101
Sick Dangle
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Toughness

I'd argue Ottawa's current toughness level is about on par with Chicago, which still hasn't lost yet. Difference is the Hawks scorers are scoring. And healthy. The way Ottawa's was in January.

Toughness helps, no question. But you've got have USEFUL tough guys like Chris Neil. If you're a one dimensional thug, you're just wasting a roster spot most nights.

Buffalo will likely dress John Scott again tomorrow and he'll get his 4 minutes, he'll slam into the boards, missing Karlsson by about 8 feet and go sit down. He'll be an asset 2 or 3 nights this winter when games get crazy but that's about it. Is Boston cowering and struggling because Scott destroyed Thornton? The standings say no.

UFAs Corey Perry and David Clarkson, who deliver both skill and toughness, will be on everyone's wish list this summer.

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02-11-2013, 08:35 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jeremy View Post
NHL stats guys now record European figure skating nudges as hits.
Just FYI most of the world's best figure skaters come from Asia and North America. This comment would probably make more sense as 'Canadian figure skating bumps'. But go on, Please continue bringing rational thought into this logic laden thread.

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02-11-2013, 08:42 PM
  #103
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Lol some fans in here are delusional Carkner and Konopka along with Niel and Smith was a team to not mess with...Tell me who on this team would you be intimadated by?

Who drives the net on a consistent basis?

Who wins battles along the boards?

This team when they play the Flyers,Bruins,Rangers and even the leafs will get man handled...

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Old
02-11-2013, 08:44 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by FolignoQuantumLeap View Post
Just FYI most of the world's best figure skaters come from Asia and North America. This comment would probably make more sense as 'Canadian figure skating bumps'. But go on, Please continue bringing rational thought into this logic laden thread.
European figure skating requires the participants to carry hockey sticks.

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02-11-2013, 08:49 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sick Dangle View Post
I'd argue Ottawa's current toughness level is about on par with Chicago, which still hasn't lost yet. Difference is the Hawks scorers are scoring. And healthy. The way Ottawa's was in January.

Toughness helps, no question. But you've got have USEFUL tough guys like Chris Neil. If you're a one dimensional thug, you're just wasting a roster spot most nights.

Buffalo will likely dress John Scott again tomorrow and he'll get his 4 minutes, he'll slam into the boards, missing Karlsson by about 8 feet and go sit down. He'll be an asset 2 or 3 nights this winter when games get crazy but that's about it. Is Boston cowering and struggling because Scott destroyed Thornton? The standings say no.

UFAs Corey Perry and David Clarkson, who deliver both skill and toughness, will be on everyone's wish list this summer.
Chicago has a good run going, but if any fan base should know how much regular season success means during the postseason, it's ours.

No disagreement on useful tough guys, hopefully we can add one this summer because there should be some good options available.

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02-11-2013, 08:52 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarknerCountry View Post
Lol some fans in here are delusional Carkner and Konopka along with Niel and Smith was a team to not mess with...Tell me who on this team would you be intimadated by?

Who drives the net on a consistent basis?

Who wins battles along the boards?

This team when they play the Flyers,Bruins,Rangers and even the leafs will get man handled...
Nah, haven't you been paying attention to the limp wristed pacifists around here? ''Toughness'' has nothing to do with sticking up for each other, intimidation, physical play or fighting. That's all a figment of your imagination. NHL Hockey is a friendly non violent game and it would be utterly foolish to think you might need some aggressive players on your roster.

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02-11-2013, 08:58 PM
  #107
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I think too many people confuse toughhness with 'taking bad penalties' or fighting. Nobody is arguing that we should take more penalties, that's ridiculous.

Why do people love Chris Neil? Because he's a tough S.O.B. I think that's the point of this thread. More Chris Neil guys and less Peter Regin guys.

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02-11-2013, 09:16 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Ron Jeremy View Post
European figure skating requires the participants to carry hockey sticks.
I'll get off your lawn now.

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02-11-2013, 10:42 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Your definition of tough?
A tough player is primarily defined by their level of physicality. I agree with you that all players have to meet a certain level of toughness to even become NHL players, but among that group a sub-set are classified as being tough. Toughness is basically being hard to play against in all physical aspects of the game. So that could mean fighting, agitating, hitting, getting involved in scrums, or basically just be nasty to battle against in the corners, along the boards and around the net.

There is also quite a variety of skill level when it comes to toughness. In terms of forwards they range from a Kevin Westgarth/ Colton Orr to a Dustin Brown/Corey Perry. On defense they range from a John Scott/Matt Carkner to a Shea Weber/Zdeno Chara. I ideally a team tries to acquire many tough players that range from the mid (Chris Neil/ Steve Downie) to the high end (Dustin Brown/Corey Perry) skill level. Unfortunately those players are pretty hard to come by so or acquire through a trade so teams end up signing tough guys on the low end level of the skill spectrum. Those kinds of players aren't really that valuable in the NHL anymore, so in some sense it is better to lack toughness than to sign a "goon" that struggles to play a regular shift. I think that is the main reason why some posters are against making this team tougher. They aren't necessarily opposed to toughness, they just don't want the kind of patchwork toughness that gives a Colton Orr or John Scott as roster spot. For the most part I agree with them, we won't really be any more successful with having a "goon" in the lineup and actually it may hurt us by having even less skill. The thing I disagree with is that there are players around the league or available this off season that are tough but also have some skill. If the Sens could find a 4th liner that brings all the tough elements that I listed above plus can put up 15-25 points then the Senators should consider signing him.

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02-11-2013, 10:52 PM
  #110
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02-12-2013, 02:10 AM
  #111
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If only Greening could develop a nastier side of his game and hold his own in a good fight.

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02-12-2013, 02:23 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Ron Jeremy View Post
European figure skating requires the participants to carry hockey sticks.
Welp... only one thing left to do with this thread:


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Old
02-12-2013, 03:14 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Ron Jeremy View Post
6 Euro forwards. That is all.
Right, because Thomas Holmstrom was a total wimp, huh? Niklas Kronwall is too.

Oh, and Alfie is a soft euro forward too, right? Anton Volchenkov was a softie too. Never played tough at all.

And that Crosby guy is real tough with his 2 career fights. Wouldn't want to get on HIS bad side.

I guess that Steven Stamkos must be one bad mother ****er too. He's a North American born player, and therefore is immediately a tough SOB. Right?

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02-12-2013, 03:46 AM
  #114
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Toughness excuse is a tired angle. I figure anyone who watches hockey and witnessed the demise of Brian Burke should begin to see that.

I don't know if you were expecting Ottawa to physically body check the opposition into their net with the puck last game, because that is the only thing that would have helped.

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02-12-2013, 07:57 AM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sick Dangle View Post
I'd argue Ottawa's current toughness level is about on par with Chicago, which still hasn't lost yet. Difference is the Hawks scorers are scoring. And healthy. The way Ottawa's was in January.

Toughness helps, no question. But you've got have USEFUL tough guys like Chris Neil. If you're a one dimensional thug, you're just wasting a roster spot most nights.

Buffalo will likely dress John Scott again tomorrow and he'll get his 4 minutes, he'll slam into the boards, missing Karlsson by about 8 feet and go sit down. He'll be an asset 2 or 3 nights this winter when games get crazy but that's about it. Is Boston cowering and struggling because Scott destroyed Thornton? The standings say no.

UFAs Corey Perry and David Clarkson, who deliver both skill and toughness, will be on everyone's wish list this summer.
Good post. This should pretty much put an end to this thread (though I know it won't).

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02-12-2013, 08:22 AM
  #116
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I would be nice to have that nuclear option like Carkner but not essential. They certainly did try to re-sign him but I agree 100% with letting the Isles take him for $4.5 mil over 3 years. He's a great team guy and gave us a hell of a spark in that Rangers series. Terrific intangibles. But not worth investing that kind of money given that he is injured so often.

The entire team played like a bunch of pansies in that Jets game. All of them. The main toughness element is mental. Be harder on pucks. Win battles on the boards. Stick up for one another. Fight occasionally, sure, but be smart about it.

As long as the team can respond when teams try to take liberties (Boston and Toronto in particular) and can be aggressive on the forecheck and tough in front of their own net then I'm happy. If any of these are missing because we don't have the right personnel then I am unhappy. The GM's role is to find the right mix. That doesn't mean a team full of Chris Neils. Nor does it mean a team full of Peter Regins. A good team should have complimentary skill sets that set the right conditions for maximum scoring potential.

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02-12-2013, 08:46 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Sick Dangle View Post
I'd argue Ottawa's current toughness level is about on par with Chicago, which still hasn't lost yet. Difference is the Hawks scorers are scoring. And healthy. The way Ottawa's was in January.

Toughness helps, no question. But you've got have USEFUL tough guys like Chris Neil. If you're a one dimensional thug, you're just wasting a roster spot most nights.

Buffalo will likely dress John Scott again tomorrow and he'll get his 4 minutes, he'll slam into the boards, missing Karlsson by about 8 feet and go sit down. He'll be an asset 2 or 3 nights this winter when games get crazy but that's about it. Is Boston cowering and struggling because Scott destroyed Thornton? The standings say no.

UFAs Corey Perry and David Clarkson, who deliver both skill and toughness, will be on everyone's wish list this summer.
I'll agree with you. I would also point out that IMO Thorton would be the 3rd toughest Bruin behind Chara & Lucic. It wouldn't surprise me to see one of those two & likely Chara as captain drop them with Scott next time they play each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savannah Skunk View Post
If only Greening could develop a nastier side of his game and hold his own in a good fight.
In most of the few fights I have seen Greening in, he seems to hold his own. His size & strength certainly help him although he maybe doesn't throw them as well as some guys. What's interesting is that Greening is a big strong forward with speed but lacks some high end hockey skill. While some on here argue Ottawa needs to be tougher a player like Greening who plays a very good two way defensive game & is hard to play against is crapped on because he either isn't more skilled or doesn't play a meaner game. I would have thought that his game is what most would want playing a reliable physical two way defensive game without taking a lot of penalties. He doesn't get paid to score goals.

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02-12-2013, 08:48 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Sick Dangle View Post
I'd argue Ottawa's current toughness level is about on par with Chicago, which still hasn't lost yet. Difference is the Hawks scorers are scoring. And healthy. The way Ottawa's was in January.

Toughness helps, no question. But you've got have USEFUL tough guys like Chris Neil. If you're a one dimensional thug, you're just wasting a roster spot most nights.

Buffalo will likely dress John Scott again tomorrow and he'll get his 4 minutes, he'll slam into the boards, missing Karlsson by about 8 feet and go sit down. He'll be an asset 2 or 3 nights this winter when games get crazy but that's about it. Is Boston cowering and struggling because Scott destroyed Thornton? The standings say no.

UFAs Corey Perry and David Clarkson, who deliver both skill and toughness, will be on everyone's wish list this summer.
Well said.

Players like Neil, Clarkson, Clutterbuck, etc. are the only kind of "tough" guys I want to see on this team. The ones that can take a regular shift, providing high levels of energy while not hurting the team by taking stupid penalties.

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02-12-2013, 09:19 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Toughness excuse is a tired angle. I figure anyone who watches hockey and witnessed the demise of Brian Burke should begin to see that.

I don't know if you were expecting Ottawa to physically body check the opposition into their net with the puck last game, because that is the only thing that would have helped.
The weird part is the way the Maple Leafs are playing now, they play with toughness and as a cohesive unit. They pummeled the Habs, beat a much tougher Philly team...we play them in a few days and quite frankly the Senators need to absolutely pummel them. I'm talking a 5-2, 6-1 pummeling with Neil destroying Orr or at the very least Fraser.

Our team has sufficient toughness...our top 6 isn't particularly tough (Alfredsson is fine, Michalek and Spezza are average to soft, Turris is average, Silf and Zib are ok, Greening is above average) but we have enough players that can grind it down to make it uncomfortable for othre teams.

As for Tomas Holmstrom...if Silf took that kind of abuse night after night, left each game in pain and parked in front of the net constantly this thread wouldn't even exist.

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02-12-2013, 09:22 AM
  #120
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Agreed!

Carkner sure came in handy against the Rangers when they tried to intimidate Karlsson in Round 1.
We will miss that toughness this year come playoff time.
Carkner jumped a guy, if any other NHL "tough guy" had done that most on here would have ripped him, his family and every one of his ancestors.

We excused it because Boyle had roughed up Karlsson in a scrum.

However after reading some of these posts we should trade Karlsson for a tougher player because many think winning scrums is more important than skill.

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02-12-2013, 11:19 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Carkner jumped a guy, if any other NHL "tough guy" had done that most on here would have ripped him, his family and every one of his ancestors.

We excused it because Boyle had roughed up Karlsson in a scrum.

However after reading some of these posts we should trade Karlsson for a tougher player because many think winning scrums is more important than skill.
So it is one or the other is it? Ottawa is playing soft, and they are not scoring. Fixing just one of those would be a start, and playing tougher is something more easily addressed at this point.

A guy like Carkner wouldn't challenge a guy like Boyle unless that guy did something like Boyle did to Karlsson, slapping him around in a way that showed up Ottawa's whole team. Carkner shouldn't have had to jump Boyle, because that situation should have been dealt with the previous game when all the crap happened. I'm not sure what happens this year if a similar situation occurs.

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02-12-2013, 11:49 AM
  #122
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Sens have a habit of becoming a perimeter team that doesn't go to the dirty zones to create traffic and fight for pucksin front of the net. That's why Neil and Greening play the pp.

Gotta pay the price.

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02-12-2013, 12:21 PM
  #123
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This was from summer but I know he said it again right before the season.... we haven't really played teams like Boston or TO yet to get pushed around so we will see how it goes..

Even with Chris Neil signed, sealed and delivered through the 2015-16 season with the Ottawa Senators, general manager Bryan Murray concedes the team needs to add more toughness.

“I don’t think there are any players sitting out there (in free agency),” Murray said after the team officially announced Neil’s three-year, $5.75 million extension on Thursday. “At some point in the near future, we will have to address that in another form.”

If the GM isn't totally satisfied then surely some fans can feel the same way.

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02-12-2013, 01:20 PM
  #124
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Come playoff time, don't expect to see the SENS past the first round again, that's if they even make it this year!

Ya, ya were in a rebuilding decade, ummm, I mean year!

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02-12-2013, 02:05 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by SixthSens View Post
Well said.

Players like Neil, Clarkson, Clutterbuck, etc. are the only kind of "tough" guys I want to see on this team. The ones that can take a regular shift, providing high levels of energy while not hurting the team by taking stupid penalties.
Those are exactly the kind of players we need on this team.

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