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Brian Boyle (The "He just plain sucks" Edition)

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Old
02-11-2013, 06:14 PM
  #226
SnowblindNYR
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
It's mostly the same crew, in fact the guys that were brought, were mainly to further improve the grind it out style that was taught last year. Do you really think someone like Torts, who preaches system to an absurd extent, is going to change his system, with the majority of the crew being the same as last season? In fact, he's come out and said it's the same system as last season. Pyatt was brought in to be better on the boards than Feds. Halpern is much faster and can forecheck better and get in on the puck on the dump and chase. Powe is basically the same player as prust, minus the fights.

If you think this team is changing it's style, you're in for a rude awakening. They are trying to better accommodate that style to take them to the next level. No team and coach that stays mostly the same, is going to change a system that had them first in the conference and 2 games from the stanley cup the season before.
So you think it's a coincidence that a guy like Miller replaced one of Torts' favorite players? The Rangers will still grind, but they'll be a team that can play either way. When Torts won the cup with the Lightning his team could do both. Torts also wants a better skating team. Getting rid of Rupp for Powe should signal that. He's also more skilled, even though his hands suck. This team is now a skill team. Yes they can grind, but I think they'll be able to play a skill game too. We won't be the Detroit Red Wings, but we also won't be last year's team, or the team we started the season with.

BTW, they got 2 games shy of the SC Finals. They were outskilled by the Devils and would have been even more outskilled by the Kings. I'd argue they got outskilled by the Sens and maybe even the Caps. Do you think Torts' goal is to almost make the finals or to win it all? Why do you think we got Nash?

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02-11-2013, 06:21 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The argument that Boyle needs to generate more offense is a flawed one to begin with.
Yeah who needs a 3rd line center and by extension a 3rd line that generates offense? We should go back to having 2 4th lines, because Stanley Cup champions have that.

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02-11-2013, 06:43 PM
  #228
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No, he doesn't suck, but the ? is if there is room for improvement, and can BB or BB+ get that improvement.

No sacred cows.
That ? should apply to all the players.

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02-11-2013, 06:52 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
Sorry for the harshness of my post. If Boyle gets back in i think it will be for Halpern, not Asham.
Haha we're good. I could see that as well, although I don't see Halpern playing himself into the press box any time soon.

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02-11-2013, 06:58 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
Yeah who needs a 3rd line center and by extension a 3rd line that generates offense? We should go back to having 2 4th lines, because Stanley Cup champions have that.
What if the team philosophy is to give big minutes to defensive players against the opposition's top performers?

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02-11-2013, 07:01 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
What if the team philosophy is to give big minutes to defensive players against the opposition's top performers?
What if you can get a player that is a two way player rather than a guy that can defend but offensively is a black hole? I think the fact that JT Miller is playing, and playing on the 3rd line and Brian Boyle is sitting shows me that that wasn't the philosophy, it was done out of necessity.

How many Stanley Cup champions have had two 4th lines?

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02-12-2013, 03:04 AM
  #232
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Miller will be fine. Like some have said before -- he's got an NHL frame, so when he isnt scoring, he can contribute elsewhere. His scouting report began with size and effort, and everything else after that is gravy.

This idea of a young kid like Kreider or Miller getting rushed to the point where it hurts their development stems from 1998-2004 paranoia -- the team was so friggin miserable that every single call-up from Hartford were to a man treated like some sort of Heaven-sent liberator.

The post-Lockout Rangers are different. They know what the hell theyre doing when it comes to developing kids. Del Zotto and Callahan are just two examples of kids people thought were "ruined". Miller and Kreider were introduced to the franchise as role players.

Miller is better than Boyle in so many ways, and it's not because of a couple of games. This franchise has been great at turning the page with players who just didnt cut it anymore, or were supplanted by superior talent.

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02-12-2013, 08:11 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
Nce try. He played 6 NHL seasons; 4 with the Rangers. Injuries? Or did he not get any interest after the Flyers were done with him? He's only 32 now!!
Injuries. The Flyers loved him. Couldn't stay healthy and had to stop playing young.

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02-12-2013, 08:14 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
What if you can get a player that is a two way player rather than a guy that can defend but offensively is a black hole? I think the fact that JT Miller is playing, and playing on the 3rd line and Brian Boyle is sitting shows me that that wasn't the philosophy, it was done out of necessity.

How many Stanley Cup champions have had two 4th lines?
I know we all love JT Miller right now, but comparing Miller to Boyle defensively is comparable to comparing Boyle to Gaborik offensively. Different levels.

And if you really can't see that, then I have to question your knowledge of the defensive side of hockey.

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02-12-2013, 08:20 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
I know we all love JT Miller right now, but comparing Miller to Boyle defensively is comparable to comparing Boyle to Gaborik offensively. Different levels.

And if you really can't see that, then I have to question your knowledge of the defensive side of hockey.
I mean, you can't really compare a guy who has been in the league for 3 games with someone who is one of the key cogs in our PK machine. To do so, would be a fool's errand; I agree.

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02-12-2013, 08:27 AM
  #236
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Originally Posted by KreiMeARiver View Post
I mean, you can't really compare a guy who has been in the league for 3 games with someone who is one of the key cogs in our PK machine. To do so, would be a fool's errand; I agree.
Exactly my point. For all of Boyle's shortcomings, and there are a few, defensively he is very good. He is a well above average defensive center. That is his niche.

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02-12-2013, 08:45 AM
  #237
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
I know we all love JT Miller right now, but comparing Miller to Boyle defensively is comparable to comparing Boyle to Gaborik offensively. Different levels.

And if you really can't see that, then I have to question your knowledge of the defensive side of hockey.
On the pk because of his experience you cannot compare Miller to Boyle. However, at ES Boyle is extremely overrated defensively. Miller is a much better skater and it appears from what I've seen in three games, in Hartford and in the WJC he is smart and patient with the puck irregardless of the level his is playing at. I think you give Boyle way too much credit for his ES defensive game. And I think Torts agrees with me.

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02-12-2013, 08:51 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
On the pk because of his experience you cannot compare Miller to Boyle. However, at ES Boyle is extremely overrated defensively. Miller is a much better skater and it appears from what I've seen in three games, in Hartford and in the WJC he is smart and patient with the puck irregardless of the level his is playing at. I think you give Boyle way too much credit for his ES defensive game. And I think Torts agrees with me.
Maybe he is overrated. But its like because all of our other centers are not very good defensively, and that includes Miller who - at age 19 - hasnt even begun to learn what it takes to be an adequate defensive player at the NHL level. Saying that a Miller or a Halpern can step into the niche Boyle has created is ignorant and not a well thought out answer.

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02-12-2013, 08:53 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
On the pk because of his experience you cannot compare Miller to Boyle. However, at ES Boyle is extremely overrated defensively. Miller is a much better skater and it appears from what I've seen in three games, in Hartford and in the WJC he is smart and patient with the puck irregardless of the level his is playing at. I think you give Boyle way too much credit for his ES defensive game. And I think Torts agrees with me.
Obviously. Like how he severely limits Miller's minutes late in game with the lead....

.....wait a minute.....

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02-12-2013, 09:20 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
On the pk because of his experience you cannot compare Miller to Boyle. However, at ES Boyle is extremely overrated defensively. Miller is a much better skater and it appears from what I've seen in three games, in Hartford and in the WJC he is smart and patient with the puck irregardless of the level his is playing at. I think you give Boyle way too much credit for his ES defensive game. And I think Torts agrees with me.
Boyle has been consistently out there to preserve a lead in the final minutes of games. You are looking through rose-colored glasses if you think Miller is as good as Boyle defensively right now.

You do realize Boyle has been the Rangers shut-down center for over a year. Last year the team was #1 in the East and made it to the ECF. He was the shut-down center all year.

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02-12-2013, 09:31 AM
  #241
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Boyle has been consistently out there to preserve a lead in the final minutes of games. You are looking through rose-colored glasses if you think Miller is as good as Boyle defensively right now.

You do realize Boyle has been the Rangers shut-down center for over a year. Last year the team was #1 in the East and made it to the ECF. He was the shut-down center all year.
From what i gather, since we didn't win the cup last year, it doesn't matter that he was such an intricate piece of the team that made it further than any team since 94.

And for Snowblind's post above, I actually didn't think the rangers were outplayed by the devils last season, i simply felt they ran out of gas. No team has ever played 7 game series in the first two rounds and gone on to the cup finals.

And anyone thinking miller can replace boyle just doesn't understand what it takes to win at this level. Defense is one of the final things that an offensive player learns at the NHL level. It is the reason callahan was sent back down after his initial stint (along with many others). Even if miller isn't sent back down, to act like Torts would have him out there in a 2 to 1 game with a minute to go is absurd, at this time. Boyle on the other hand, was pretty much out there in that situation every single game last year.

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02-12-2013, 09:37 AM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
On the pk because of his experience you cannot compare Miller to Boyle. However, at ES Boyle is extremely overrated defensively. Miller is a much better skater and it appears from what I've seen in three games, in Hartford and in the WJC he is smart and patient with the puck irregardless of the level his is playing at. I think you give Boyle way too much credit for his ES defensive game. And I think Torts agrees with me.
Miller is responsible in his own end, especially for a rook. Nobody is arguing that Miller has not been performing well, and then Boyler has been completely ineffective the first quarter of this shortened season. BUT when both play to their abilities, they play different roles and Boyler is the shut down guy. He plays in his own end a lot because he is out there for defensive faceoffs against the other teams best offensive players. Not sure how you expect a defensive shut down player to play a puck posession game against the Crosbys, Tavareses, Eliases of the world? Especially when they start in their own end.

Boyle needs to play at the level that he is able, which he has not done so far this season, but he is a critical cog for this organization.

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02-12-2013, 09:41 AM
  #243
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
I know we all love JT Miller right now, but comparing Miller to Boyle defensively is comparable to comparing Boyle to Gaborik offensively. Different levels.

And if you really can't see that, then I have to question your knowledge of the defensive side of hockey.
There are a lot of players that are a lot better than Boyle that aren't nearly as good as him defensively. Besides he doesn't have to be better than Boyle defensively. If his line is in the other team's zone rather than what Boyle likes to do (be pinned in his zone and block a ton of shots) it's as good or better defensively than what Boyle does.

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02-12-2013, 09:43 AM
  #244
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
There are a lot of players that are a lot better than Boyle that aren't nearly as good as him defensively. Besides he doesn't have to be better than Boyle defensively. If his line is in the other team's zone rather than what Boyle likes to do (be pinned in his zone and block a ton of shots) it's as good or better defensively than what Boyle does.
The reason Miller's line is in the offensive zone more is because they aren't getting the defensive zone starts Boyle was. Miller is getting sheltered 3rd line minutes. Boyle was matched up in the defensive zone consistently with the other teams best players.

Stepan is getting that match-up now. Notice his point totals have dropped this season? Hard to score goals and put up points when you have to worry so much about the defensive side of the puck.

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02-12-2013, 09:50 AM
  #245
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
From what i gather, since we didn't win the cup last year, it doesn't matter that he was such an intricate piece of the team that made it further than any team since 94.

And for Snowblind's post above, I actually didn't think the rangers were outplayed by the devils last season, i simply felt they ran out of gas. No team has ever played 7 game series in the first two rounds and gone on to the cup finals.

And anyone thinking miller can replace boyle just doesn't understand what it takes to win at this level. Defense is one of the final things that an offensive player learns at the NHL level. It is the reason callahan was sent back down after his initial stint (along with many others). Even if miller isn't sent back down, to act like Torts would have him out there in a 2 to 1 game with a minute to go is absurd, at this time. Boyle on the other hand, was pretty much out there in that situation every single game last year.
I believe the smart thing to do is to look at what the team did well to put them in that position last year but look to improve. The Rupp and Miller moves show me that Torts think the team was slow and lacking in skill in the bottom 6.

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02-12-2013, 09:54 AM
  #246
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
The reason Miller's line is in the offensive zone more is because they aren't getting the defensive zone starts Boyle was. Miller is getting sheltered 3rd line minutes. Boyle was matched up in the defensive zone consistently with the other teams best players.

Stepan is getting that match-up now. Notice his point totals have dropped this season? Hard to score goals and put up points when you have to worry so much about the defensive side of the puck.
The reason I like this Boyle debate is because it comes down to a philosophical breakdown of where this team is headed.

If/when Boyle gets back into the lineup, will Torts prefer to give him the same type of shutdown assignment? If so, it doesnt really matter what line hes on because hes going to get big even strength minutes against the oppositions top line.

Or is this team in a place where that shutdown role can go out the window because Torts feels he has a team that can consistently bring it to the opposition? If Miller wasnt a teenager and had more experience, this would be a lot stronger of an argument.

My personal take? You never know how a specific game is going to play out. Why leave your only legitimate shutdown option in the press box? Im not here to say Boyle is some sort of great defensive player on his way to a Selke, but the truth of the matter is theres noone else on the roster capable of fulfilling his specific role.

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02-12-2013, 09:55 AM
  #247
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
There are a lot of players that are a lot better than Boyle that aren't nearly as good as him defensively. Besides he doesn't have to be better than Boyle defensively. If his line is in the other team's zone rather than what Boyle likes to do (be pinned in his zone and block a ton of shots) it's as good or better defensively than what Boyle does.
Every team has shutdown guys that aren't out there to produce offense. They are vital to success. Not every line can be built to be an offensive machine. Having a Boyle type, shutdown guy, on the 4th line, who can not only be a non-liability against other teams top players, but an actual defensive asset, cannot be understated, especially on a cup contender.

I realize offense is much more exciting and flashy, but successful overall teams need to have good role players like boyle to win it all.

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02-12-2013, 09:57 AM
  #248
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The reason I like this Boyle debate is because it comes down to a philosophical breakdown of where this team is headed.

If/when Boyle gets back into the lineup, will Torts prefer to give him the same type of shutdown assignment? If so, it doesnt really matter what line hes on because hes going to get big even strength minutes against the oppositions top line.

Or is this team in a place where that shutdown role can go out the window because Torts feels he has a team that can consistently bring it to the opposition? If Miller wasnt a teenager and had more experience, this would be a lot stronger of an argument.

My personal take? You never know how a specific game is going to play out. Why leave your only legitimate shutdown option in the press box? Im not here to say Boyle is some sort of great defensive player on his way to a Selke, but the truth of the matter is theres noone else on the roster capable of fulfilling his specific role.
This I agree with totally. I would actually feel pretty comfortable with a shut-down line of:

Powe-Halpern-Boyle

But the issue becomes, if this line is getting 10 minutes a game (not a stretch of the imagination), that decreases the ice time of the 3rd line which Callahan is on.

That is the issue with splitting up Gaborik, Richards, Nash and Callahan onto (3) lines while also wanting to have a "shut-down" line.

Interesting debate for sure.

Edit:

Also, something of note, when Boyle gets back in the line-up, if that is indeed the 4th line, the Rangers really only need a couple of other forwards to PK during the game. That means more rest for Nash, Stepan, Hagelin and Callahan when you have PK horses lie Halpern, Boyle and Powe on the bench. It also keeps everyone in the game and allows the coach to more evenly distribute ice time.

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02-12-2013, 10:03 AM
  #249
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
The reason Miller's line is in the offensive zone more is because they aren't getting the defensive zone starts Boyle was. Miller is getting sheltered 3rd line minutes. Boyle was matched up in the defensive zone consistently with the other teams best players.

Stepan is getting that match-up now. Notice his point totals have dropped this season? Hard to score goals and put up points when you have to worry so much about the defensive side of the puck.
At least with Stepan you have a guy that can put up points, you didn't get that Boyle.

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02-12-2013, 10:05 AM
  #250
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
This I agree with totally. I would actually feel pretty comfortable with a shut-down line of:

Powe-Halpern-Boyle

But the issue becomes, if this line is getting 10 minutes a game (not a stretch of the imagination), that decreases the ice time of the 3rd line which Callahan is on.

That is the issue with splitting up Gaborik, Richards, Nash and Callahan onto (3) lines while also wanting to have a "shut-down" line.

Interesting debate for sure.
Plus you'll get the WWE fans whining about Asham being taken out of the lineup and how the team will magically turn into a bunch of pansies. That Im not concerned about.

What I would be concerned about is where this leaves Miller. Its a delicate balance regarding how he can help this team and whats best for his development

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