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Brian Boyle (The "He just plain sucks" Edition)

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Old
02-12-2013, 10:06 AM
  #251
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
At least with Stepan you have a guy that can put up points, you didn't get that Boyle.
Your argument always comes back to offense.

If you refuse to understand that preventing goals is just as important as scoring them, then Im afraid you'll never grasp the importance of Boyle's role.

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02-12-2013, 10:13 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Every team has shutdown guys that aren't out there to produce offense. They are vital to success. Not every line can be built to be an offensive machine. Having a Boyle type, shutdown guy, on the 4th line, who can not only be a non-liability against other teams top players, but an actual defensive asset, cannot be understated, especially on a cup contender.

I realize offense is much more exciting and flashy, but successful overall teams need to have good role players like boyle to win it all.
Depending on the matchup in the playoffs he can be an asset. I don't think he 100% has no place on this team. As long he's nothing more than a 4th liner.

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02-12-2013, 10:13 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Plus you'll get the WWE fans whining about Asham being taken out of the lineup and how the team will magically turn into a bunch of pansies. That Im not concerned about.

What I would be concerned about is where this leaves Miller. Its a delicate balance regarding how he can help this team and whats best for his development
Agreed, but i trust the Rangers to do what's right. On top of that, i think the team is pretty tough physically. Boyle may not be a good fighter, but he throws the body well, i would argue, even better and more so than I've seen Asham do it. Fighting is becoming less and less prevalent in the game, whether you like it or not. The Rangers trading Rupp for Powe, if anything, should signal that. Asham is not the atypical goon that the Rangers have consistently dressed for the past bazillion years, but to think he can bring more to this team than Boyle just shows that many fans are short sighted.

Again, there's a reason people say defense wins championships.

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02-12-2013, 10:17 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
This I agree with totally. I would actually feel pretty comfortable with a shut-down line of:

Powe-Halpern-Boyle

But the issue becomes, if this line is getting 10 minutes a game (not a stretch of the imagination), that decreases the ice time of the 3rd line which Callahan is on.

That is the issue with splitting up Gaborik, Richards, Nash and Callahan onto (3) lines while also wanting to have a "shut-down" line.

Interesting debate for sure.

Edit:

Also, something of note, when Boyle gets back in the line-up, if that is indeed the 4th line, the Rangers really only need a couple of other forwards to PK during the game. That means more rest for Nash, Stepan, Hagelin and Callahan when you have PK horses lie Halpern, Boyle and Powe on the bench. It also keeps everyone in the game and allows the coach to more evenly distribute ice time.
I'm not convinced that we necessarily need a "shut-down" line per se.

We need that 4th line to be defensively responsible, absolutely, but I would not look to deploy that 4th line against opposition's top lines.

I think the game has evolved beyond the line matching we used to see in the late 80's and early 90's.

I can see matching certain defensive pairings against opposition top lines, but not line against line.

What I would expect from a 4th line is to provide a breather for the top three lines, be solid defensively and house most of your PK forwards.

At ES, I wouldn't want them to get more than 5-7 minutes. They would be the go to guys for PK duty though.

To much disruption to the flow of a game if these guys are taking more than their normal share of defensive zone faceoffs. I get that Torts wants to play a puck possession game, but if the guys that are winning the face offs are in capable of doing anything but chipping pucks out of the D-zone after winning the face off, or dumping into the o-zone and chasing, my question is "What's the point?"

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02-12-2013, 10:17 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Maybe he is overrated. But its like because all of our other centers are not very good defensively, and that includes Miller who - at age 19 - hasnt even begun to learn what it takes to be an adequate defensive player at the NHL level. Saying that a Miller or a Halpern can step into the niche Boyle has created is ignorant and not a well thought out answer.
Throwing Halpern in there was silly on your part. Halpern has been a defensively responsible center on good teams his entire career. He is better on draws than Boyle and I know it doesn't matter to you but he has put up 40+ points several times which to me is important because it says he knows how to possess the puck and pressure the other team keeping the puck out of our zone. BB can do no such thing and that should be considered when evaluating his defensive prowess.

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02-12-2013, 10:19 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Obviously. Like how he severely limits Miller's minutes late in game with the lead....

.....wait a minute.....
Miller will play in all situations within two years and is so much more talented than Boyle it's ridiculous. He just needs experience and to develop more physically.

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02-12-2013, 10:20 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Your argument always comes back to offense.

If you refuse to understand that preventing goals is just as important as scoring them, then Im afraid you'll never grasp the importance of Boyle's role.
The Rangers have one of the deepest and best blue lines in the league and the best goaltender. They play a defensive style. Even their offensive players play defense. This is not the prelockout teams. They will have fewer defensive players than last year's team, however I like this balance more. Remember last year's team against the Senators? They didn't allow many goals but they were pinned in their zone the entire game, every game almost. It was like they were on the PK 50 minutes in the game. Hell they were pinned in their zone against the Caps and Devils. How can you get offense that way? Seriously, it was a little pathetic watching them. All they did was block shots in their own zone. I want a team that can skate the puck out of their zone and spend time in the other team's zone and force the other team to block shots.

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02-12-2013, 10:24 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Boyle has been consistently out there to preserve a lead in the final minutes of games. You are looking through rose-colored glasses if you think Miller is as good as Boyle defensively right now.

You do realize Boyle has been the Rangers shut-down center for over a year. Last year the team was #1 in the East and made it to the ECF. He was the shut-down center all year.
STop with the shut down nonsense. He was used in defensive situations out of necessity and invariably we get hemmed in our zone relying on Hank, McD and Girardi to keep the puck out of the net. Torts felt he was better than his other options. He also had chemistry with two very responsible wings. That line played in those situations but Brian Boyle and his terrible skating is not shutting down anyone. You really need to stop calling him that it is an insult to people like Ryan McDonagh and Marc Staal who are actually shut down players.

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02-12-2013, 10:25 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
STop with the shut down nonsense. He was used in defensive situations out of necessity and invariably we get hemmed in our zone relying on Hank, McD and Girardi to keep the puck out of the net. Torts felt he was better than his other options. He also had chemistry with two very responsible wings. That line played in those situations but Brian Boyle and his terrible skating is not shutting down anyone. You really need to stop calling him that it is an insult to people like Ryan McDonagh and Marc Staal who are actually shut down players.
Way to compare top pairing defense-men to a defensively responsible 4th line center.

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02-12-2013, 10:26 AM
  #260
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BTW, who was on the Straka-Nylander-Jagr Malik-Rozsival, 5 man unit anything special defensively. Look at their +/-s. There's more ways to playing defense than collapsing in the D zone in front of the goalie and blocking the shot.

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02-12-2013, 10:27 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
Miller will play in all situations within two years and is so much more talented than Boyle it's ridiculous. He just needs experience and to develop more physically.
How does this help the team now, exactly?

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02-12-2013, 10:27 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by bogans View Post
Miller is responsible in his own end, especially for a rook. Nobody is arguing that Miller has not been performing well, and then Boyler has been completely ineffective the first quarter of this shortened season. BUT when both play to their abilities, they play different roles and Boyler is the shut down guy. He plays in his own end a lot because he is out there for defensive faceoffs against the other teams best offensive players. Not sure how you expect a defensive shut down player to play a puck posession game against the Crosbys, Tavareses, Eliases of the world? Especially when they start in their own end.

Boyle needs to play at the level that he is able, which he has not done so far this season, but he is a critical cog for this organization.
If he had puck talent he could move the puck into the O-zone and make plays. The thing about the offensively talented is that they are usually not great defensively. So, if BB had skills he could keep the puck in the O-zone for a while. It happens to our top line enough. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if Miller stays after 5 games BB will be moved. And Halpern is the one taking his job not Miller.

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02-12-2013, 10:28 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
BTW, who was on the Straka-Nylander-Jagr Malik-Rozsival, 5 man unit anything special defensively. Look at their +/-s. There's more ways to playing defense than collapsing in the D zone in front of the goalie and blocking the shot.
I literally have zero idea what point you're trying to make here.

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02-12-2013, 10:29 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
STop with the shut down nonsense. He was used in defensive situations out of necessity and invariably we get hemmed in our zone relying on Hank, McD and Girardi to keep the puck out of the net. Torts felt he was better than his other options. He also had chemistry with two very responsible wings. That line played in those situations but Brian Boyle and his terrible skating is not shutting down anyone. You really need to stop calling him that it is an insult to people like Ryan McDonagh and Marc Staal who are actually shut down players.
You need to stop disputing facts with a bunch of BS regarding what you thought you saw.

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02-12-2013, 10:34 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I literally have zero idea what point you're trying to make here.
He's trying to compare an awesome first line, in which Jagr scored nearly 60 goals and 120+ points in a season to a fourth line with Brian Boyle as an important cog.

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02-12-2013, 10:34 AM
  #266
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
The reason Miller's line is in the offensive zone more is because they aren't getting the defensive zone starts Boyle was. Miller is getting sheltered 3rd line minutes. Boyle was matched up in the defensive zone consistently with the other teams best players.

Stepan is getting that match-up now. Notice his point totals have dropped this season? Hard to score goals and put up points when you have to worry so much about the defensive side of the puck.
His point totals after 11 games? Good point. You will say anything to justify the failure that is Brian Boyle. I would argue that it is much easier to be a defensive player on the Rangers when Hank can erase many of your mistakes. And I would argue that Hank bails BB out on many of his turnovers that occur from his brutal puck skills, poor balance, bad decision making and overall sucky play. We should table this and see if Torts puts him back in the lineup. If he doesn't, you have no point. If he does we can watch and comment.

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02-12-2013, 10:36 AM
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His point totals after 11 games? Good point. You will say anything to justify the failure that is Brian Boyle. I would argue that it is much easier to be a defensive player on the Rangers when Hank can erase many of your mistakes. And I would argue that Hank bails BB out on many of his turnovers that occur from his brutal puck skills, poor balance, bad decision making and overall sucky play. We should table this and see if Torts puts him back in the lineup. If he doesn't, you have no point. If he does we can watch and comment.
Anyone who has watched the Rangers for the past couple seasons can give you a pretty good idea of what type of player he is, considering we've seen him in over 100 games. But you're right, lets table it and watch him play 2 games, like we've seen Asham and base it off of that.

Also, torts has said, as has Sullivan, that boyle will be back in the lineup.

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02-12-2013, 10:39 AM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The reason I like this Boyle debate is because it comes down to a philosophical breakdown of where this team is headed.

If/when Boyle gets back into the lineup, will Torts prefer to give him the same type of shutdown assignment? If so, it doesnt really matter what line hes on because hes going to get big even strength minutes against the oppositions top line.

Or is this team in a place where that shutdown role can go out the window because Torts feels he has a team that can consistently bring it to the opposition? If Miller wasnt a teenager and had more experience, this would be a lot stronger of an argument.

My personal take? You never know how a specific game is going to play out. Why leave your only legitimate shutdown option in the press box? Im not here to say Boyle is some sort of great defensive player on his way to a Selke, but the truth of the matter is theres noone else on the roster capable of fulfilling his specific role.
We don't have a legitimate shut down option which is the rub here. He's just not that good and never has been. He was simply the best option on the roster. But now we have Jeff Halpern who's career as a defensive forward is much more impressive than Brian Boyle. And based on the way he's been skating there's plenty left in the tank. All of this has led BB to the bench. Personally, I don't think he's been any worse this year than in prior years. But now there are others who can play his role and play it better. And so he sits, maybe indefinitely.

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02-12-2013, 10:44 AM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Plus you'll get the WWE fans whining about Asham being taken out of the lineup and how the team will magically turn into a bunch of pansies. That Im not concerned about.

What I would be concerned about is where this leaves Miller. Its a delicate balance regarding how he can help this team and whats best for his development
Hockey fans. There are more fights early this year than last year. The game is physical and sometimes you need to stand up to avoid being beaten (literally) out of a barn. The Rangers drafted Dylan Mcilrath with the 10th pick. I'm guessing that if the Rangers brass could speak with you they (once they stopped mocking you) would explain how important that physical (pugulistic) presence is to an NHL team. You should be concerned about that; it has happened to many Ranger teams and could happen to this one. Ash is needed.

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02-12-2013, 10:45 AM
  #270
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
He's trying to compare an awesome first line, in which Jagr scored nearly 60 goals and 120+ points in a season to a fourth line with Brian Boyle as an important cog.
No he's not.

What he is saying is that another way of playing a sound defensive game is the keep the puck in the other end of the rink.

When Boyle is out there, the puck, more often than not, gets pinned in our end forcing us to scramble to play defence and block more shots than we should have to.

There's alot of merit to the saying "a Key to a good defence, is a good offence"

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02-12-2013, 10:49 AM
  #271
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Way to compare top pairing defense-men to a defensively responsible 4th line center.
He made the comparison when referencing BB as a shut down player. He just simply is not that good. You have to skate at a completely different level to shut down the likes of Tavares, Stamkos, Ovechkin and Crosby. He cannot keep up with them. All he can do is follow them into the zone, wait for them to feed the point and then try and block a shot. This shut down label is insulting as I said before.

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02-12-2013, 10:51 AM
  #272
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
BTW, who was on the Straka-Nylander-Jagr Malik-Rozsival, 5 man unit anything special defensively. Look at their +/-s. There's more ways to playing defense than collapsing in the D zone in front of the goalie and blocking the shot.
Bingo? In the NFL, teams that control the ball help the numbers of their defense simply because the other team gets less possessions. This can be applied to hockey. If we have the puck in their zone most of the game, they will not score and although we may not lead the league in blocked shots or takeaways, our overall defensive numbers will be very good. This is where Boyle doesn't help us and therefore is just not that good of a defensive player.

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02-12-2013, 10:53 AM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
How does this help the team now, exactly?
Miller is not taking Boyle's job, Halpern is. For now JT is a 3rd line center who will play ES and some PP. If he scores some goals and plays defensively responsible hockey that helps the team.

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02-12-2013, 10:53 AM
  #274
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
BTW, who was on the Straka-Nylander-Jagr Malik-Rozsival, 5 man unit anything special defensively. Look at their +/-s. There's more ways to playing defense than collapsing in the D zone in front of the goalie and blocking the shot.
They were simply good enough to keep the puck in the opponents zone most of the time

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02-12-2013, 10:57 AM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
Exactly; log off.
Same goes for your thoughts on Halpern being a better option than Boyle over the course of the season, due mainly to offensive output from Halpern about a decade ago. You are truly in the realm of apples to apples comparisons and analyses.


Last edited by NYR Viper: 02-12-2013 at 11:09 AM. Reason: Enough with the flaming
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