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02-12-2013, 10:58 AM
  #276
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
No he's not.

What he is saying is that another way of playing a sound defensive game is the keep the puck in the other end of the rink.

When Boyle is out there, the puck, more often than not, gets pinned in our end forcing us to scramble to play defence and block more shots than we should have to.

There's alot of merit to the saying "a Key to a good defence, is a good offence"
Yes, he is. Not every line on a team is going to be a top line like that Jagr one was. It's completely impossible. You need guys who are very defensively responsible to make cup runs. Boyle is one of those types of players.

You can't say, well, Rick Nash is great with +/- because he's always got the puck in the offensive zone. That's awesome and very true, thing is, not every line on your team can have a rick nash, or an MVP caliber Jagr. Especially in the cap world we live in now, you need cheap, valuable bottom line forwards who can be strong defensively and penalty kill, take faceoffs, etc to go deep in the playoffs.

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02-12-2013, 11:00 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I literally have zero idea what point you're trying to make here.
The point is if you can play a puck possession game you don't need to be great defensively.

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02-12-2013, 11:03 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
The point is if you can play a puck possession game you don't need to be great defensively.
And that team fell off a cliff as soon as the goals stopped coming from the greatest European player of all-time.

The point should be that a team that can play both types of games should be embraced, and thats why having Boyle in the top 12 forwards makes sense longterm.

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02-12-2013, 11:05 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
How does this help the team now, exactly?
Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
Throwing Halpern in there was silly on your part. Halpern has been a defensively responsible center on good teams his entire career. He is better on draws than Boyle and I know it doesn't matter to you but he has put up 40+ points several times which to me is important because it says he knows how to possess the puck and pressure the other team keeping the puck out of our zone. BB can do no such thing and that should be considered when evaluating his defensive prowess.

Halpern has 0 points in 11 games. He scored 40+ points in 2005-2006. Seriously?

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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
STop with the shut down nonsense. He was used in defensive situations out of necessity and invariably we get hemmed in our zone relying on Hank, McD and Girardi to keep the puck out of the net. Torts felt he was better than his other options. He also had chemistry with two very responsible wings. That line played in those situations but Brian Boyle and his terrible skating is not shutting down anyone. You really need to stop calling him that it is an insult to people like Ryan McDonagh and Marc Staal who are actually shut down players.
You do realize that when you are out there against Crosby, Malkin, Tavares, Giroux that most teams get hemmed in their zone? McDonagh and Staal are defensemen. Just a FYI.

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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
His point totals after 11 games? Good point. You will say anything to justify the failure that is Brian Boyle. I would argue that it is much easier to be a defensive player on the Rangers when Hank can erase many of your mistakes. And I would argue that Hank bails BB out on many of his turnovers that occur from his brutal puck skills, poor balance, bad decision making and overall sucky play. We should table this and see if Torts puts him back in the lineup. If he doesn't, you have no point. If he does we can watch and comment.
Uh, so you are saying our entire defense is overrated? By this logic the Rangers should trade all of their defensmen and just play 5 forwards. Hank will bail them out. No worries.

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02-12-2013, 11:08 AM
  #280
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2000-01 Season:

Jeff Halpern: 21 goals, 21 assists, 42 points

Brian Boyle: 0 goals, 0 assists, 0 points

NUFF SAID. Puck possession. BALANCE.

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02-12-2013, 11:09 AM
  #281
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Just an observation, as it does play into this Boyle discussion, but in my experience of talking hockey its the people that use absolutes to describe an NHL player that know next to nothing about the game.

"Player X is always pinned in his own zone and always making turnovers!"

Wow, its amazing that player was allowed to play in hundreds of National Hockey League games!

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02-12-2013, 11:09 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Yes, he is. Not every line on a team is going to be a top line like that Jagr one was. It's completely impossible. You need guys who are very defensively responsible to make cup runs. Boyle is one of those types of players.

You can't say, well, Rick Nash is great with +/- because he's always got the puck in the offensive zone. That's awesome and very true, thing is, not every line on your team can have a rick nash, or an MVP caliber Jagr. Especially in the cap world we live in now, you need cheap, valuable bottom line forwards who can be strong defensively and penalty kill, take faceoffs, etc to go deep in the playoffs.
But he (and I) are not expecting Boyle to be offensively dominant.

We want more puck possession out of the 4th line.

We do not want to see that 4th line go out there and consistently cough up the puck and get pinned in the D-zone

If it helps you sleep at night to think that he's comparing Boyle to any one of Straka-Nylander-Jagr so that is suits your POV, by all means go for it. You would still be missing the point by a wide margin

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02-12-2013, 11:21 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
But he (and I) are not expecting Boyle to be offensively dominant.

We want more puck possession out of the 4th line.

We do not want to see that 4th line go out there and consistently cough up the puck and get pinned in the D-zone

If it helps you sleep at night to think that he's comparing Boyle to any one of Straka-Nylander-Jagr so that is suits your POV, by all means go for it. You would still be missing the point by a wide margin
Puck possession is fine, but that's not what he was arguing and if it was, then he did it in extremely poor fashion. You can't go comparing one of the best players to ever play the game and the guy who had arguably the greatest regular season as a ranger ever, to brian boyle. They play completely different roles.

Again, you need guys to be those defensive, non liability cogs on the bottom lines to succeed. We've seen it every year in the playoffs.

Putting Boyle out there against a Malkin/Crosby, allows Nash/Gaborik to go up against lesser offensive lines meaning they can pin other teams in there defensive zone.

It makes sense if you think about it. Boyle is very good defensively, he goes up against Malkin on a shift and shuts him down (but doesn't produce offensively obviously). The next shift, Nash goes out against Sutter (Pittsburghs version of boyle) and scores a goal. Therefore, even though boyle didn't score, he shut down and allowed our offensive guys to gain the upper edge.

Is it that hard to understand that not every guy on the team is meant to provide offense, even at a minimal level. Boyle is a defensive specialist who will chip in offensively here and there. 20-30 points a year. That's really good for a 4th line center on a contending team.

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02-12-2013, 11:22 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Exactly.




Halpern has 0 points in 11 games. He scored 40+ points in 2005-2006. Seriously?



You do realize that when you are out there against Crosby, Malkin, Tavares, Giroux that most teams get hemmed in their zone? McDonagh and Staal are defensemen. Just a FYI.



Uh, so you are saying our entire defense is overrated? By this logic the Rangers should trade all of their defensmen and just play 5 forwards. Hank will bail them out. No worries.
You do realize that when you are out there against Crosby, Malkin, Tavares, Giroux that most teams get hemmed in their zone?

Not true. We were hemmed in by every line that the Sens sent out and the Devils as well.

Uh, so you are saying our entire defense is overrated? By this logic the Rangers should trade all of their defensmen and just play 5 forwards. Hank will bail them out. No worries

No, I'm saying Brian Boyle is overrated. Everyone benefits from Hank but if you watch you see the plays that McD and others make with their feet and stick. BB makes no such plays; at least not often enough. He is a major reason we get hemmed in because he is so bad with the puck and in battles for the puck.

Halpern has 0 points in 11 games. He scored 40+ points in 2005-2006. Seriously? And in 07-08, and two other times. When has BB done it? Silence is golden.

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02-12-2013, 11:26 AM
  #285
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Puck possession is fine, but that's not what he was arguing and if it was, then he did it in extremely poor fashion. You can't go comparing one of the best players to ever play the game and the guy who had arguably the greatest regular season as a ranger ever, to brian boyle. They play completely different roles.

Again, you need guys to be those defensive, non liability cogs on the bottom lines to succeed. We've seen it every year in the playoffs.

Putting Boyle out there against a Malkin/Crosby, allows Nash/Gaborik to go up against lesser offensive lines meaning they can pin other teams in there defensive zone.

It makes sense if you think about it. Boyle is very good defensively, he goes up against Malkin on a shift and shuts him down (but doesn't produce offensively obviously). The next shift, Nash goes out against Sutter (Pittsburghs version of boyle) and scores a goal. Therefore, even though boyle didn't score, he shut down and allowed our offensive guys to gain the upper edge.

Is it that hard to understand that not every guy on the team is meant to provide offense, even at a minimal level. Boyle is a defensive specialist who will chip in offensively here and there. 20-30 points a year. That's really good for a 4th line center on a contending team.
I agree that the team is better off is someone other than your top guns can go out and play against the other teams' best players. We have that guy, Jeff Halpern. Boyle is a defensive specialist because his offense is so bad not because his defense is so good. His existence has been largely due to necessity based on our roster and his personal relationship with the coach. It seems like the necessity and the teacher's pet days are behind us. And the team will be better because of it.

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02-12-2013, 11:27 AM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
Halpern has 0 points in 11 games. He scored 40+ points in 2005-2006. Seriously? And in 07-08, and two other times. When has BB done it? Silence is golden.
In Brian Boyle's last two seasons he's scored as many points as Halpern's last three. But of course I'm ignoring that Boyle's last two seasons are a fluke.

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02-12-2013, 11:31 AM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
I agree that the team is better off is someone other than your top guns can go out and play against the other teams' best players. We have that guy, Jeff Halpern. Boyle is a defensive specialist because his offense is so bad not because his defense is so good. His existence has been largely due to necessity based on our roster and his personal relationship with the coach. It seems like the necessity and the teacher's pet days are behind us. And the team will be better because of it.
Stats would argue that Boyle is in fact, at this point in time, better offensively than Jeff Halpern.

Last 2 seasons, Boyle has 61 points. Last 3 seasons, Halpern has 61 points.

So you're advocating for more offense. I would argue, with facts, that Boyle is better offensively at this point in time, than Halpern (who has yet to score a point in 11 games as a ranger). And i like halpern.

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02-12-2013, 11:38 AM
  #288
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Much like the Stepan thread, you will debate Brian Boyle and NOT resort to jabs at each other.

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02-12-2013, 11:44 AM
  #289
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
In Brian Boyle's last two seasons he's scored as many points as Halpern's last three. But of course I'm ignoring that Boyle's last two seasons are a fluke.
You are ignoring the two flukey months he had where most of those goals took place. You also selectively didn't compare three years to three years to make a point which left out Brian's 6 point season in 2009-10. You are also ignoring TOI. Brian has been getting 3rd line TOI much to the chagrin of many of us while Jeff was not. Just the fact that you didn't mention Brian's 2009-10 campaign shows no integrity on your part. I would expect nothing less.

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02-12-2013, 11:47 AM
  #290
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Stats would argue that Boyle is in fact, at this point in time, better offensively than Jeff Halpern.

Last 2 seasons, Boyle has 61 points. Last 3 seasons, Halpern has 61 points.

So you're advocating for more offense. I would argue, with facts, that Boyle is better offensively at this point in time, than Halpern (who has yet to score a point in 11 games as a ranger). And i like halpern.
compare three years to three years and it's pretty much a wash. Compare career to career on a ppg basis and it's not so close. My main point (and it seems Torts as well) is that Halpern is a better defensive player than Boyle. The fact that he has shown some offense in his time in the NHL is a bonus.

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02-12-2013, 11:48 AM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
You are ignoring the two flukey months he had where most of those goals took place. You also selectively didn't compare three years to three years to make a point which left out Brian's 6 point season in 2009-10. You are also ignoring TOI. Brian has been getting 3rd line TOI much to the chagrin of many of us while Jeff was not. Just the fact that you didn't mention Brian's 2009-10 campaign shows no integrity on your part. I would expect nothing less.
Honest question, how much did you follow Jeff Halpern over the past 3 years. How do we know, with his whopping 16 points last year, that he didn't score them in a short span. And even if they were spread out of 16 games, does that really make a difference, that equates to a little over a months worth of games.

And i'm not advocating taking halpern out, when boyle gets back in, i think it should be Asham or Miller depending on how he continues to look/develop.

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02-12-2013, 11:50 AM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
compare three years to three years and it's pretty much a wash. Compare career to career on a ppg basis and it's not so close. My main point (and it seems Torts as well) is that Halpern is a better defensive player than Boyle. The fact that he has shown some offense in his time in the NHL is a bonus.
Maybe we should try and trade for Kovalev then, since he had some really good offensive seasons....see that kind of logic?

And are we really going to throw in Boyle's rookie season, in which he got minimal playing time and was on a pretty ****** rangers squad?

It's clear to anyone who knows/watches boyle on a regular basis that he is not a 6 point player right now.

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02-12-2013, 11:50 AM
  #293
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Puck possession is fine, but that's not what he was arguing and if it was, then he did it in extremely poor fashion. You can't go comparing one of the best players to ever play the game and the guy who had arguably the greatest regular season as a ranger ever, to brian boyle. They play completely different roles.

Again, you need guys to be those defensive, non liability cogs on the bottom lines to succeed. We've seen it every year in the playoffs.

Putting Boyle out there against a Malkin/Crosby, allows Nash/Gaborik to go up against lesser offensive lines meaning they can pin other teams in there defensive zone.

It makes sense if you think about it. Boyle is very good defensively, he goes up against Malkin on a shift and shuts him down (but doesn't produce offensively obviously). The next shift, Nash goes out against Sutter (Pittsburghs version of boyle) and scores a goal. Therefore, even though boyle didn't score, he shut down and allowed our offensive guys to gain the upper edge.

Is it that hard to understand that not every guy on the team is meant to provide offense, even at a minimal level. Boyle is a defensive specialist who will chip in offensively here and there. 20-30 points a year. That's really good for a 4th line center on a contending team.
Playing a 3rd line role, I expect more offence than I believe he is capable of providing.

I have no issues playing Boyle on the 4th line 5-7 minutes at ES and be one of our key PK'ers.

What I would like from Boyle is more offensive zone PRESENCE. I don't give a good rats ass about offensive production from a 4th liner.

The fact is that he has a hard enough time getting the puck out of his own zone and that's where we are having our disagreements.

Being a good defensive player means that you limit your opponents offensive chances. When you are consistently pinned in your own zone, more often than not you are not getting the job done.

Again, I believe he has a place on the 4th line, but not to the point where it disrupts the continuity and flow of our offence.

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02-12-2013, 11:54 AM
  #294
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No he's not.

What he is saying is that another way of playing a sound defensive game is the keep the puck in the other end of the rink.

When Boyle is out there, the puck, more often than not, gets pinned in our end forcing us to scramble to play defence and block more shots than we should have to.

There's alot of merit to the saying "a Key to a good defence, is a good offence"
Thank you and Jagr's 120 points is completely irrelevant. If you have a line full of 4th liners that can control the puck in the other end, that's all the defense you need. I don't know about anyone here. I'd rather watch a game where the way we stop the other team is by controlling the puck in the offensive zone rather than play the rope-a-dope garbage style we killed hockey with in the playoffs last year. I seriously can't believe that team not only finished first in the east but won a playoff round. Amazing, THANKS HANK!

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02-12-2013, 11:57 AM
  #295
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Maybe we should try and trade for Kovalev then, since he had some really good offensive seasons....see that kind of logic?

And are we really going to throw in Boyle's rookie season, in which he got minimal playing time and was on a pretty ****** rangers squad?

It's clear to anyone who knows/watches boyle on a regular basis that he is not a 6 point player right now.
He played 71 games that year. It's also clear to anyone who watches him that he is a 4th liner who if used correctly will get 4th line ES minutes and likely not get even 20 points. When you watch Halpern do you see a guy who has deteriorated? I don't. So, by that logic we should throw out Boyle's 35 point season as an anomoly as well because it is fairly apparent we won't see that again.

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02-12-2013, 11:57 AM
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Am i the only one that doesn't think that every shift boyle is out there, he is pinned in our defensive zone?

I watch nearly every game and attend quite a few as well. I mean he certainly defends quite a bit, but i wouldnt say hes like 95% to 5% like many of you are making it seem.

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02-12-2013, 11:58 AM
  #297
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
compare three years to three years and it's pretty much a wash. Compare career to career on a ppg basis and it's not so close. My main point (and it seems Torts as well) is that Halpern is a better defensive player than Boyle. The fact that he has shown some offense in his time in the NHL is a bonus.


Halpern has looked good, and I like him, but you realize Halpern is on his way down while Boyle is entering his prime right? I would hope Halpern has a higher ppg average at this point in their careers.

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02-12-2013, 11:58 AM
  #298
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
You are ignoring the two flukey months he had where most of those goals took place. You also selectively didn't compare three years to three years to make a point which left out Brian's 6 point season in 2009-10. You are also ignoring TOI. Brian has been getting 3rd line TOI much to the chagrin of many of us while Jeff was not. Just the fact that you didn't mention Brian's 2009-10 campaign shows no integrity on your part. I would expect nothing less.
OK, in the past 3 seasons, Boyle has 6 more points than Halpern.

Boyle now is a completely different player than 2009-10. I don't find it all that relevant. But if you insist, the math is simple. 0 + 6.

I don't think it's fair to ignore Boyle's best months while embracing his worst. That is often a technique used by people who have their minds made up and have no interest in a balanced discussion.

And I'm sure you know that in his famous 2007-08 season, Halpern scored 43% of his points in 17 game span from February 27 - April 2, right?

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02-12-2013, 12:00 PM
  #299
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Thank you and Jagr's 120 points is completely irrelevant. If you have a line full of 4th liners that can control the puck in the other end, that's all the defense you need. I don't know about anyone here. I'd rather watch a game where the way we stop the other team is by controlling the puck in the offensive zone rather than play the rope-a-dope garbage style we killed hockey with in the playoffs last year. I seriously can't believe that team not only finished first in the east but won a playoff round. Amazing, THANKS HANK!
Your hopes and dreams are just that - something that is virtually unattainable. We all wish we could have a team that runs 4 lines that constantly possess the puck deep in the offensive zone. Allow me to drag you back to reality for a moment.

The game is about peaks and valleys - momentum. Torts talks about it all the time. And while I know some folks are ready to take this past week and open a new chapter, the reality is that Torts has depended on Boyle to be a player to defend against the opposition's pushes.

The argument that bringing Boyle out of the lineup will allow this team to become a better puck possession team in the offensive zone is flawed at best.

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02-12-2013, 12:00 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Honest question, how much did you follow Jeff Halpern over the past 3 years. How do we know, with his whopping 16 points last year, that he didn't score them in a short span. And even if they were spread out of 16 games, does that really make a difference, that equates to a little over a months worth of games.

And i'm not advocating taking halpern out, when boyle gets back in, i think it should be Asham or Miller depending on how he continues to look/develop.
I don't know how Halpern scored his points last year. I know he had much less ice time than BB. What bothered me was we could have compared apples to apples (three years to three years) or career ppg to career ppg, but he cherry picked two years against three for effect. And it just so happens by coincidence, the year he left out BB had 6 points in 71 games.

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